User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 18

  1. #1
    Senior Member Venus Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    4w5 sx/so

    Default Fours and Envy? (And any other types)

    Last edited by Venus Rose; 07-22-2016 at 09:06 PM.
    EII | INFP
    4w5-9w1-6w5 sx/so
    Likes Siúil a Rún liked this post

  2. #2
    To the waters of the wild Siúil a Rún's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    496 sx/sp


    I'm so sorry you have had to face this sort of rejection Rose for a Heart.
    I would say that is a different sort of envy from the standard type where people want their neighbor's house and money, etc. When the most important person in your life rejects you and makes you feel like you aren't enough, that is a deeper, authentic sort of pain. I've experienced rejection and being insignificant to someone who meant everything to me.

    I don't know if I can say anything to help because we just meant, but it does hurt my heart every time I see a kind person be hurt in this world. There are a lot of very cruel, hurtful people in the world. I have a hard time knowing what to do with that in my own mind. No one has a right to tear you down and make you feel destroyed, but people will try. I feel like my words fall short, but please know that there are kind people who will treat you well. They are rare in their world, but they do exist. I hope you can keep trying until you find someone like that.

    I've reached a point where I almost recklessly push the hurtful people away. My tolerance for hurtful people is minimal at this point. We have finite amount of time and energy, so it's worth pushing away anyone who causes hurt and destruction in your life. Focus on those few genuinely kind, good people. Even if it's only one in a hundred, that still means there are a lot of them out there, but they can be hard to find at times.
    I wish I was on yonder hill 'tis there I'd sit and cry my fill, And every tear would turn a mill, Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.
    I'll sell my rock, I'll sell my reel, I'll sell my only spinning wheel, To buy my love a sword of steel Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.
    I wish, I wish, I wish in vain, I wish I had my heart again, And vainly think I'd not complain, Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.
    Likes Venus Rose, Froody Blue Gem liked this post

  3. #3
    crush the fences iwakar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose for a Heart View Post
    I have never considered myself an envious person, but I know that your worst fears can be so unconscious you do not even know they exist. I know that social fours are said to be rather ashamed of their anger and aggression which perhaps makes them less likely to be in touch with envy? I wonder how sexual and self-pres fours experience this.
    For context, I am a mid-30s INFJ 4w5 sx/sp.

    Personally, I am not ashamed of my anger and aggression. I dislike that I cannot conceal it more or manage it more closely so that it doesn't affect the people around me. (But this is true of all my intense emotions.)

    I am very aware of my envy and of its mostly negative impact on me and I do my best to shake it off at regular intervals.

    As for your feelings of rejection, I can relate all too well, and I wish there was something clever and wise that I could say to help with that, but I can't. I can only say that time, distance, and self-awareness will lessen that sting considerably... and finding someone who values your individual gifts is the closest thing to merciful amnesia I've ever known.
    "What makes me think of me
    is the poor jerk who wanders out on air
    and then looks down. Below his feet, he sees
    eternity, and suddenly his shoes
    no longer work on nothingness, and down
    he goes. As I fall past, remember me."
    Likes Venus Rose liked this post

  4. #4
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    4w5 sx/so


    @Rose for a Heart First, I'm glad you posted here, and I value the honesty in which you described what you are feeling. I'd say you are correct in identifying as So-first, as Social 4's tend to bemoan (express verbally or through writing) feeling rejected. Naranjo calls it "suffering vocally". Here's an info graphic (it's the second image in the post) that I made on 4 instincts, since you expressed an interest in how the different varieties express envy.

    Sx tends to envy in a more destructive way, that "causes others to suffer". A main difference between that and SO, is that SX-4 is sometimes called the "shameless" 4 because there is a demanding nature in regards to what we don't have. SO on the other hand is the most shame filled of the 4 variations.

    But he painted me this thankless, worthless girl who needs to embody these qualities to be of any worth. I was never worth anything to him. And he isn't the first to tell me I am worthless either (not directly).
    I think that SX and SO 4 react differently to feeling villianized (as you described here). SO tends to wallow more, withdraw, become overwhelmed with shame. SX on the other hand, is more prone to indignation that (from my experience) turns destructive-- something like, "you want me to be a villian?! I'll be a villian." Naranjo calls SX 4 "Cain-like", this of course is the "causes others to suffer" bit. Super ugly, I know.

    SP pushes the envy down, and tends to be more "long suffering" and stoic, not being as aware that their envy is even a thing.

    I also have a 2 Mother, which I find interesting.

    Disclaimer: I'm not saying you are definitely doing any of the below, just that it's been my experience.

    From what you've said, I think it's important to realize that no one person (or their "choosing" you) can complete or make you valuable. I know all too well that feeling you have described, of feeling invisible, or like you don't even exist-- it's the worst, but we've got to realize that we often unintentionally push people into avoiding us. I did that for years because I was so focused on my own negative feelings, constantly needing/demanding validation of my suffering. I had to hit rock bottom pretty hard (I'm praying that you don't need to do that!) before I could stand back enough to see myself clearly, and understand why people didn't want to be around me. Not because I was "being myself" but because I was so stuck in the past, my suffering and constantly pouring my feelings onto other people.

    So how did I stop? Don't get me wrong, I still need to vent sometimes, I still introspect a heck of a lot more than most people do, but I have outlets for that. Maybe step one for me was realizing how blessed I was (in my case, to not be dead after lots of stupid decisions, but also) just for everyday things: food, shelter, a semi-normal family, the ability to create, see and be in nature, etc. That probably sounds dumb, and eye-roll inducing, but it's an important place to start-- thankfulness is a serious opponent to envy/discontent! Another thing that has really helped me over the years, has been volunteering but with specific motivations (as we are talking about Enneagram here ): not to save other people, not to be loved for "doing", but to hear the hearts and stories of others! We 4's are total junkies for authentic stories, and I think it can be really healing to hear the struggle and stories of others-- mainly so that we can see redemption at work. So we can know that beauty rises out of brokenness, and adversity can produce positive things! Also (super important) that our suffering is not more or worse than the suffering of others, all hurt is valuable.

    Quality community (which is big, especially for introverts!) can also come directly out of volunteering, I've met some of the coolest people that way, who have become a large (and positive) part of my life! Just for clarity, I'm not bar hopping or going to sporting events, I mean true friendships with people who can talk about real things with me.

    Last thought: A big idea that keeps me health-focused as a 4w5 is that of true authenticity. We love that topic, right? Yes, but we get it horribly twisted in our overly-sharp minds. True authenticity sees both light and dark, positive and negative. I was deceived for years and years into believing that what is real must be painful and raw and intense-- that's only half truth. If we really seek authenticity, we must also embrace our light feelings, and positive happenings in life-- that perfect flower that crosses your path on the sidewalk, the colors of the sky when the sun is setting, that garment that just makes you feel happy, the people in your life who have always tried to love you (even if they can't fully understand). Until we can see both light and dark, we aren't being authentic at all. I still struggle with that, but am able to remind myself most of the time.

    I feel for you deeply, friend. It's one of the beauties of this place, before posting/reading here I had never communicated with another 4. It can feel very good to be understood.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨
    Likes SpankyMcFly, Venus Rose, Galena, Luminous liked this post

  5. #5
    Senior Member draon9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    6w7 so
    EIE Ni


    fours are bounded by their own words and feels like they are imprisoned by society
    Do as you please we are as gods

  6. #6
    Necromancing Scapelamb Froody Blue Gem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    9w1 sp/so
    No Se


    I am definitely not a core 4 but I have a huge as carrots 4 wing and a strong connection to the type... ^^; I internalize on a lot of the envy but it's present and the reactivity takes a toll when I'm at my worst. There is also a lot of overlap with my sp 2 fix and 4 but being fe, 2 makes more sense for that fix.

    I find that in a group, when someone takes my niche or I feel threatened, that's when the envy kicks in. It takes a long time for me to get adjusted with other people and what took so long to get built up is now being broken down. It's also a question of identity or whatever scrap of that I am aware of. What made me unique is being taken away from me. I don't have much going for me so I put a lot of emphasis on this, too muchh. Also when I have a special talent but someone is just as good as or better than me. I can potentially find common ground but my kneejerk reaction is to worry if I'm special anymore. I do get on the envious side when it comes to relationships and attraction as well. It comes from a place of worry and insecurity. It does take me a lot to admit these feelings to myself or to the point when they boil over though.

    9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so|LEFV| RcoAI|Phlegmatic-Melancholic| Neurotype: Fascinator Primary| Newtype Secondary|

    Johari: Nohari:|

    Time is an illusion that helps things make sense, So we are always living in the present tense
    It seems unforgiving when a good thing ends
    But you and I will always be back then

    #JusticeforJeb_ | High Inquisitor of Council of Water Sheep + Water Sheep's Woolmommy

  7. #7
    Senior Member neko 4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    4w5 sp


    I'm a SP Four and I don't feel guilty about my envy. Sometimes I wish it would go away though.

  8. #8
    Flickering light тень's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    649 so/sp


    Im an sp 4, and I am not usually conscious of my envy. I either completely downplay an feeling with rationalization, then tell myself if you want it go work for it. The strain from trying to plan that makes me lost interest immediately. But this only applies to the material. Some other things immediately become a competition for me, but I never state it unless I am forced into reactivity. I definately embody the stoic tenacity of the dauntless 4. Its really digusting sometimes, that I measure my own suffering against others. Cognatively I find it repulsive. This makes me see myself as a bad person. This makes me double back and stop myself before it begins. I embraced quite a few values that resulted in integration to 1. That led to a much more healthy mindset.

  9. #9
    LL"s Atom Bomb Baby Saturnal Snowqueen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    9w1 so/sp
    SEI None


    SP 4(well a strong 4 fix). Envy is a huge thing for me. I don't know if it make sense, but I see so many people with distinguished identities(like they've found their niche) and I envy them. With me, I'm always looking for identity, and heck I'm not sure what my "niche" is. Like on the associating threads on here I never know what to expect lol because I feel like I don't have much of a clear identity. I just want to find my identity; sometimes I don't know the exact identity I want, but I just need something to make me feel whole. That feeling of being different and defective is interesting to me, because I can't always find a concrete reason for feeling those things, it's just the lens I've always seen the world through. That everyone else has something I don't, and I'm just this outsider floating around in space. It makes me feel kind of empty, but at the same token if I didn't have those feelings and didn't have my flaws then I'd be without an identity.
    "Chaos is what killed the dinosaurs, darling."

    4w3-9w1-7w6 ○ RLUAI ○ Phlegmatic-Melancholic ○ FELV ○ Blood type B+ ○ Naturalist learning style ○ True Color Blue ○ Aries Sun ☀ Aquarius Moon ☽ Leo Rising ⤯

  10. #10
    Blessed With A Curse Schrödinger's Name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019


    I have no idea what the OP was about but... I just wanted to write something about 'envy'.

    I think 'envy' is a way too simplistic description for something that's pretty complex and can be interpreted in different ways... Taking into consideration that people are not envious by nature, and that something causes someone to become envious. Therefore, 'envy' wouldn't be the basic 'emotion' (or whatever you call it).
    Par example; someone feels left out because their best friend meets up with someone else without inviting them. They are first of all scared to be abandoned. So the basic emotion would be fear, possibly (mixed with) sadness. Later on this turns out into envy because they can't handle the situation. Nor can they acknowledge their weakness(es).

    Because let's be honest, being envious mostly means that that person has a lack self-confidence and a lack of self-insight (being too critical of oneself is also not being insightful). In the example; has trust issues and isn't able to 'survive on their own' (unconscious thought). But people fail to see through this. Even the envious person themself.

    It's a mystery to me why the main characteristic of a four would be 'envy'. Everyone is able to be envious. And envy is like poison when someone isn't able to admit that they are envious, and work through it. And since those main traits are based on the 'seven deadly sins' -meaning that it is based on something religious- I won't take it seriously.
    Until You Decide What Happens, Everything Is Happening At Once

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 04:54 AM
  2. [ENFP] ENFPs (and any other type if you want), did people ever think that you...
    By Coco in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-02-2010, 11:47 PM
  3. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 11-21-2009, 03:01 PM
  4. New Enneagram Test - Any Other Type Threes?
    By Unique in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 03-11-2009, 11:18 PM
  5. [ENTP] ENTPs and Fashion +OTHER TYPES!!!
    By EcK in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 01-12-2009, 12:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO