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  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    4w5 sx/so

    Default Fours and Envy? (And any other types)

    Last edited by Rose for a Heart; 07-22-2016 at 09:06 PM.
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  2. #2
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    4w5 sp/sx


    I'm so sorry you have had to face this sort of rejection Rose for a Heart.
    I would say that is a different sort of envy from the standard type where people want their neighbor's house and money, etc. When the most important person in your life rejects you and makes you feel like you aren't enough, that is a deeper, authentic sort of pain. I've experienced rejection and being insignificant to someone who meant everything to me.

    I don't know if I can say anything to help because we just meant, but it does hurt my heart every time I see a kind person be hurt in this world. There are a lot of very cruel, hurtful people in the world. I have a hard time knowing what to do with that in my own mind. No one has a right to tear you down and make you feel destroyed, but people will try. I feel like my words fall short, but please know that there are kind people who will treat you well. They are rare in their world, but they do exist. I hope you can keep trying until you find someone like that.

    I've reached a point where I almost recklessly push the hurtful people away. My tolerance for hurtful people is minimal at this point. We have finite amount of time and energy, so it's worth pushing away anyone who causes hurt and destruction in your life. Focus on those few genuinely kind, good people. Even if it's only one in a hundred, that still means there are a lot of them out there, but they can be hard to find at times.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  3. #3


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose for a Heart View Post
    I have never considered myself an envious person, but I know that your worst fears can be so unconscious you do not even know they exist. I know that social fours are said to be rather ashamed of their anger and aggression which perhaps makes them less likely to be in touch with envy? I wonder how sexual and self-pres fours experience this.
    For context, I am a mid-30s INFJ 4w5 sx/sp.

    Personally, I am not ashamed of my anger and aggression. I dislike that I cannot conceal it more or manage it more closely so that it doesn't affect the people around me. (But this is true of all my intense emotions.)

    I am very aware of my envy and of its mostly negative impact on me and I do my best to shake it off at regular intervals.

    As for your feelings of rejection, I can relate all too well, and I wish there was something clever and wise that I could say to help with that, but I can't. I can only say that time, distance, and self-awareness will lessen that sting considerably... and finding someone who values your individual gifts is the closest thing to merciful amnesia I've ever known.
    "The views of absolutists and purists everywhere should be noted in fierce detail, then meticulously and thoroughly printed onto my toilet paper ply."
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  4. #4
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    4w5 sx/so


    @Rose for a Heart First, I'm glad you posted here, and I value the honesty in which you described what you are feeling. I'd say you are correct in identifying as So-first, as Social 4's tend to bemoan (express verbally or through writing) feeling rejected. Naranjo calls it "suffering vocally". Here's an info graphic (it's the second image in the post) that I made on 4 instincts, since you expressed an interest in how the different varieties express envy.

    Sx tends to envy in a more destructive way, that "causes others to suffer". A main difference between that and SO, is that SX-4 is sometimes called the "shameless" 4 because there is a demanding nature in regards to what we don't have. SO on the other hand is the most shame filled of the 4 variations.

    But he painted me this thankless, worthless girl who needs to embody these qualities to be of any worth. I was never worth anything to him. And he isn't the first to tell me I am worthless either (not directly).
    I think that SX and SO 4 react differently to feeling villianized (as you described here). SO tends to wallow more, withdraw, become overwhelmed with shame. SX on the other hand, is more prone to indignation that (from my experience) turns destructive-- something like, "you want me to be a villian?! I'll be a villian." Naranjo calls SX 4 "Cain-like", this of course is the "causes others to suffer" bit. Super ugly, I know.

    SP pushes the envy down, and tends to be more "long suffering" and stoic, not being as aware that their envy is even a thing.

    I also have a 2 Mother, which I find interesting.

    Disclaimer: I'm not saying you are definitely doing any of the below, just that it's been my experience.

    From what you've said, I think it's important to realize that no one person (or their "choosing" you) can complete or make you valuable. I know all too well that feeling you have described, of feeling invisible, or like you don't even exist-- it's the worst, but we've got to realize that we often unintentionally push people into avoiding us. I did that for years because I was so focused on my own negative feelings, constantly needing/demanding validation of my suffering. I had to hit rock bottom pretty hard (I'm praying that you don't need to do that!) before I could stand back enough to see myself clearly, and understand why people didn't want to be around me. Not because I was "being myself" but because I was so stuck in the past, my suffering and constantly pouring my feelings onto other people.

    So how did I stop? Don't get me wrong, I still need to vent sometimes, I still introspect a heck of a lot more than most people do, but I have outlets for that. Maybe step one for me was realizing how blessed I was (in my case, to not be dead after lots of stupid decisions, but also) just for everyday things: food, shelter, a semi-normal family, the ability to create, see and be in nature, etc. That probably sounds dumb, and eye-roll inducing, but it's an important place to start-- thankfulness is a serious opponent to envy/discontent! Another thing that has really helped me over the years, has been volunteering but with specific motivations (as we are talking about Enneagram here ): not to save other people, not to be loved for "doing", but to hear the hearts and stories of others! We 4's are total junkies for authentic stories, and I think it can be really healing to hear the struggle and stories of others-- mainly so that we can see redemption at work. So we can know that beauty rises out of brokenness, and adversity can produce positive things! Also (super important) that our suffering is not more or worse than the suffering of others, all hurt is valuable.

    Quality community (which is big, especially for introverts!) can also come directly out of volunteering, I've met some of the coolest people that way, who have become a large (and positive) part of my life! Just for clarity, I'm not bar hopping or going to sporting events, I mean true friendships with people who can talk about real things with me.

    Last thought: A big idea that keeps me health-focused as a 4w5 is that of true authenticity. We love that topic, right? Yes, but we get it horribly twisted in our overly-sharp minds. True authenticity sees both light and dark, positive and negative. I was deceived for years and years into believing that what is real must be painful and raw and intense-- that's only half truth. If we really seek authenticity, we must also embrace our light feelings, and positive happenings in life-- that perfect flower that crosses your path on the sidewalk, the colors of the sky when the sun is setting, that garment that just makes you feel happy, the people in your life who have always tried to love you (even if they can't fully understand). Until we can see both light and dark, we aren't being authentic at all. I still struggle with that, but am able to remind myself most of the time.

    I feel for you deeply, friend. It's one of the beauties of this place, before posting/reading here I had never communicated with another 4. It can feel very good to be understood.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨
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  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    7w8 so
    EIE Ni


    fours are bounded by their own words and feels like they are imprisoned by society
    In order for society to survive, we must all pitch in and cooperate with one another, split the resources fairly.
    If we get greedy, everything will fall apart
    The main reason why there is no long peace is because everything is set and stone.
    Another is that resources are limited and the ones who had the most goes bad because they are in control.

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