[Type 1] Ones: Why is your anger "wrong"?

[EJCC]

This topic came to me when I was watching an episode of "Maron" on Netflix -- the main character was trying to get advice on how to hold in his angry outbursts, and I got to wondering how I would answer his question. And I realized that my answer to his question would probably be very different from other enneagram 1s' answers.

So, my question for fellow 1s is: Why do you hold your anger in? Why is it "wrong" for you to do so? It's a basic component of being a 1, that you be ashamed of your anger, but what exactly is the principle behind it?

Follow-up question: Presumably a big part of your answer to the above question would be "Because letting out my anger would be losing control, and I never lose control". If that is the case, where do you draw the anger line, between being in control of your anger and not being in control of your anger? How angry do you let yourself be, before it embarrasses you?

 

[EJCC]

Responding to my own OP.

This topic came to me when I was watching an episode of "Maron" on Netflix -- the main character was trying to get advice on how to hold in his angry outbursts, and I got to wondering how I would answer his question. And I realized that my answer to his question would probably be very different from other enneagram 1s' answers.

My answer to Marc's question would be:

"I have no advice for you, Marc, because in order to be that prone towards angry outbursts, your desire to let your anger out has to be stronger than your desire to hold it in. And not only that, but there has to be a stronger emotional reason to hold it in, that can overwhelm your warped anger-logic. In my case, I only hold my anger in when the emotional reason to hold it in -- which, in my case, is shame -- wins. And it usually wins. I'm too much of a people-pleaser for the shame to not win."

So, my question for fellow 1s is: Why do you hold your anger in? Why is it "wrong" for you to do so? It's a basic component of being a 1, that you be ashamed of your anger, but what exactly is the principle behind it?

Elaborating on what I just wrote in quotations: I can't stand awkwardness. And anger makes people awkward. I have no trouble with my anger when it's justified and when no one else has a problem with it. Though, I admit, I probably project a lot of awkwardness onto people who don't necessarily experience it.

Follow-up question: Presumably a big part of your answer to the above question would be "Because letting out my anger would be losing control, and I never lose control". If that is the case, where do you draw the anger line, between being in control of your anger and not being in control of your anger? How angry do you let yourself be, before it embarrasses you?

Awkwardness is the main factor, which means it's situational. That being said, the subjective loss of control is a big part of it. Which is typically between levels 4 and 5 of my anger scale. (Yes, I have an anger scale.)

 

[Fidelia]

Well, I guess I distrust any of my emotions when they are too fresh or strong. I don't mind speaking my mind once my feelings have settled a bit and I know if what is making me angry is something I can change and it's reasonable or not.

It's also an energy conserving measure as strong emotions chew through a lot of my emotional reserves and require a lot of bandwidth.

I also very easily put myself in other peoples' shoes. My own horror of intruding on people or being an imposition makes me vicariously feel what they might be feeling if I were on the receiving end, and it makes me reluctant to make them feel that way unless there is strong justification for it. I am more able to deal with annoyance which is within my control than their resulting reactions if I put it in their court.

I think at this point in my life though I am much more able to address issues that trigger conflict than I once would have, but I still err on the side of saying less than more and I tend to overassume that people would react in the same way to my anger as I would to theirs.

I truly don't enjoy feeling angry though. On the few Incredible Hulk anger moments I've felt, I found it disconcerting and unpleasant and could only relax after I figured out why I reacted so strongly to something that shouldn't have been that big a deal.

Mostly my anger leaks out in bits of annoyance, some venting, andsome feelings of hurt rather than full blown rage.

 

[á´…eparted]

I also agree that the answer is going to differ slightly depending on who is answering them. I mean, we're all different despite the common threads between all 1's.


1. Why do you hold your anger in?

This might come as a surprise to some of you, but I instinctively hold my anger in all the time. I just have a lot of it, and a nasty habit of putting myself in areas that will raise it up. Honestly? It's instinctual, I hold back all of my emotions in some way, because if I didn't, I would be HELL to be around. I'd probably get into yelling matches several times a day if I didn't keep my anger in check (though there'd be days where it never comes up). The tiniest things can piss me off. Earlier, I got really pissed because the post-doc on my lab came in to my office room to ask me an inane question and was being his typical self with trying to cover every minutia. It's like, dude GO AWAY, you can do this on your own, figure it out. I honestly wanted to tell him to get lost and fuck off. Though people I regard as friends or I am close with and like never really set me off internally, which is part of the reason I like them.

I really just get angry over all kinds of things, and I HAVE to keep them in because I see 95% of the time it's inane and unfair.


2. Why is it "wrong" for you to do so? It's a basic component of being a 1, that you be ashamed of your anger, but what exactly is the principle behind it?

It's wrong 95% of the time (more on the other 5% in a minute) because it's unjusitifed. I am not right in letting my anger out, and getting angry at something or someone is unfair. I feel it is my duty to keep it in. Further, much of the time expressing it doesn't do any good. It might feel good, but one most remember the practical end and the impact things have. Generally speaking it doesn't solve any problems, and all it does is tell people I am pissed, and most respond to it poorly.

One area I differ from other 1's generally is I don't feel ashamed for feeling angry about stuff. At most I might think "yikes, I really shouldn't be mad about something like this. I should work on that". However, I WILL feel a LOT of shame and embarassment if expressing anger causes tangible problems AND I was in the wrong or fucked up badly. In those cases I'll hide with my tail between my legs for a long time. I sort of look at it like this: I don't feel guilty about having emotions. I mean, what purpose would that serve? Zero. Pointless stress. Because I can keep them in and in control, I don't feel I should feel guilty unless keeping it in fails.

Then there is the 5% of the time where I don't feel it is wrong to keep anger in. This is when I see something that has an external justification of letting it out, I will readily. Which is kind of a problem , as I admit I like it when I can do that even though it causes long term harm internally. Largely because it lets me vent the anger and feelings cause I simply have too many. I also look at it like letting the anger out WILL solve problems, and honestly a lot of the time it does. At leas the immediate thing I am dealing with. Occasionally though, doing so causes problems and if it turns out I was wrong or just fucked up a lot. Then I promptly self-seclude to lick my wounds and yay spiraling to 4!


3. Follow-up question: Presumably a big part of your answer to the above question would be "Because letting out my anger would be losing control, and I never lose control". If that is the case, where do you draw the anger line, between being in control of your anger and not being in control of your anger? How angry do you let yourself be, before it embarrasses you?

In a round about way, yes it is about not losing control. I don't think about it that way though. It's more that if I didn't keep my anger and emotions in check I WOULD be out of control. To a certain extent I do hold a decent level of pride on being fair minded and making good judgement calls. Loosing control drops that level of faith others would hold and that REALLY blows to my ego a ton. I've never actually lost 100% control. Even in the cases where I completely exploded I was holding back 1/2 or more. I know what I am capable of and I just can't justify going that far for one reason or another, usually because the damage I would cause could never be undone. Generally, my sense of embarassment comes from doing stupid shit along the way, but unless it has been thoughourly proven that my reasons for being angry were wrong, I won't feel embarassed for feeling how I feel. In fact that is likely to fester indefinitely then lying in wait till it can come out (and it lasts for years and years). The actions though, that shit hurts.

I guess the line for me goes back to the 95%-5% bit, and I seem to be a little to willing to risk the fall out potential from letting it out. Though it's been recently shown to me that that needs to stop for the sake of my well being so I am working on it (and it's annoying , but legit good for me).

 

[Fidelia]

I identify with the last two responses of Hard's quite a bit. I don't feel ashamed of anger but I would if I went around dumping it on people willy nilly, especially if it served no purpose to do so.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Not an e1, just throwing in an aside:

Follow-up question: Presumably a big part of your answer to the above question would be "Because letting out my anger would be losing control, and I never lose control". If that is the case, where do you draw the anger line, between being in control of your anger and not being in control of your anger? How angry do you let yourself be, before it embarrasses you?

There's a difference between the anger as an emotion and the expression of anger.

It's my understanding that e1's whole thing is that there's a focus almost exclusively on the expression of anger and not expressing it- without addressing the existence of the emotion. Is that an accurate understanding? As if, if the expression can be stifled, it's like 'getting rid' of the emotion. But that's only pushing it into the unconscious, where a person ultimately actually becomes a sort of puppet to it- there's a distinct loss of self-control that comes from trying to control expression without addressing the existence of the emotion. It comes out in other ways (eg. like being really critical of other people, having no patience for people who are even slightly different, etc).

My only point here is that, in discussing "being in control of anger", it might be a good idea to distinguish between being in control of the emotion itself (which would be more like 'managing' than 'controlling') or being in control of the expression of it. Especially since that seems to be something e1s conflate (if my understanding is correct).

 

[EJCC]

^ [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] Yep, your understanding is correct, and your post is on-point. I was referring to stifling the expression of anger.

Interesting point about conflating the two. I think there is an e1 mindset of, "Having all this anger isn't an issue so long as no one sees it". And using "anger" as shorthand for "expressed anger" might be because having some level of anger at baseline is so normal for 1s that they don't really think about it.

I'll need to reflect on this more...

 

[EJCC]

This might come as a surprise to some of you, but I instinctively hold my anger in all the time. I just have a lot of it, and a nasty habit of putting myself in areas that will raise it up. Honestly? It's instinctual, I hold back all of my emotions in some way, because if I didn't, I would be HELL to be around. I'd probably get into yelling matches several times a day if I didn't keep my anger in check (though there'd be days where it never comes up). The tiniest things can piss me off. Earlier, I got really pissed because the post-doc on my lab came in to my office room to ask me an inane question and was being his typical self with trying to cover every minutia. It's like, dude GO AWAY, you can do this on your own, figure it out. I honestly wanted to tell him to get lost and fuck off. Though people I regard as friends or I am close with and like never really set me off internally, which is part of the reason I like them.

I mean this completely neutrally: The above reminds me a LOT of me in middle school. I don't have quite as many feelings now as I did then -- phrased another way, "I've leveled off since then" -- so I don't identify with it anymore. But it's familiar to me.

I really just get angry over all kinds of things, and I HAVE to keep them in because I see 95% of the time it's inane and unfair.

^ That resonates a LOT with me, though.

2. Why is it "wrong" for you to do so? It's a basic component of being a 1, that you be ashamed of your anger, but what exactly is the principle behind it?

It's wrong 95% of the time (more on the other 5% in a minute) because it's unjusitifed. I am not right in letting my anger out, and getting angry at something or someone is unfair. I feel it is my duty to keep it in. Further, much of the time expressing it doesn't do any good. It might feel good, but one most remember the practical end and the impact things have. Generally speaking it doesn't solve any problems, and all it does is tell people I am pissed, and most respond to it poorly.

I identify with the last two responses of Hard's quite a bit. I don't feel ashamed of anger but I would if I went around dumping it on people willy nilly, especially if it served no purpose to do so.

Yes to all of this!!

One area I differ from other 1's generally is I don't feel ashamed for feeling angry about stuff. At most I might think "yikes, I really shouldn't be mad about something like this. I should work on that". However, I WILL feel a LOT of shame and embarassment if expressing anger causes tangible problems AND I was in the wrong or fucked up badly. In those cases I'll hide with my tail between my legs for a long time. I sort of look at it like this: I don't feel guilty about having emotions. I mean, what purpose would that serve? Zero. Pointless stress. Because I can keep them in and in control, I don't feel I should feel guilty unless keeping it in fails.

Interesting. I agree with this most of the time, but I've definitely been ashamed of my emotions before. And shared that shame with the forum. Appropriately enough, I'm a little embarrassed about it now.

Could be Fe vs. Te here. I get frustrated with my "illogical" tendencies very regularly.

Then there is the 5% of the time where I don't feel it is wrong to keep anger in. This is when I see something that has an external justification of letting it out, I will readily. Which is kind of a problem , as I admit I like it when I can do that even though it causes long term harm internally. Largely because it lets me vent the anger and feelings cause I simply have too many. I also look at it like letting the anger out WILL solve problems, and honestly a lot of the time it does. At leas the immediate thing I am dealing with. Occasionally though, doing so causes problems and if it turns out I was wrong or just fucked up a lot. Then I promptly self-seclude to lick my wounds and yay spiraling to 4!

I do this same thing, but I know from experience -- with interacting with you and from my own interactions with others -- that we have different standards for what kind of venting outlets are acceptable. In your case, people are so used to you being ranty, that people don't take it personally when you rage at/about things. It's just you being you. I think this differentiates you from most 1s, tbh, because most of us are either introverts, thinkers, or both -- meaning, what people are used to is a very subdued and restrained person, relatively speaking.

This isn't to say that I don't rant a lot. Because I do. But I never, ever use debate as an anger outlet. I use storytelling as an anger outlet. I rant about the bad things that happened in my day, and I make those rants funny. So my audience is entertained, I feel better, and everyone wins!

 

[á´…eparted]

I mean this completely neutrally: The above reminds me a LOT of me in middle school. I don't have quite as many feelings now as I did then -- phrased another way, "I've leveled off since then" -- so I don't identify with it anymore. But it's familiar to me.

Not the least bit of offense taken . Honestly, I've recently learned a good chunk of my feelings is due to the fact that I'm bipolar (as the level to which I feel and how strongly I feel is not normal, apparently). Even if that is accounted for I still have a lot. I'm not sure if I'll ever level off since they're so linked to my motivation drive and understanding of the world. The best I can do is try to allow it in more measured doses, and in some paradoxical way allow myself to feel more. I think the ultimate goal for a lot of 1's is to not just control our feelings, but choose which ones even come to us in the first place, and it takes a looooong time to get to that sort of space. It's sort of what integrating to 7 is all about in a strange way.

^ That resonates a LOT with me, though.

Yes to all of this!!

yep. I think the most go-to method 1's use to control anger is to pause and say "ok, is this anger rational, and is it also justified?" and the answer is very often no to one or both of them. It's an exteranlization that gives us REASON to control it. Without that, it seems almost impossible to do. The problem comes in when 1's over-apply this rationalization to more emotions that shouldn't get it. Thus leading to the stifiling that is often seen, and is a big reasons why 1's seem uptight or under constant tension. Since it's so useful to contain anger, it gets overused.

Interesting. I agree with this most of the time, but I've definitely been ashamed of my emotions before. And shared that shame with the forum. Appropriately enough, I'm a little embarrassed about it now.

Could be Fe vs. Te here. I get frustrated with my "illogical" tendencies very regularly.

When you made that thread one of my first reactions was "oh goodness this is kind of adorable!", but I also related to it significantly so I am one to talk. I've thought about it some, but if I am ashamed of my emotions I guard them A LOT. I sort of view innate bad feelings as a terrible reflection of myself. If they come naturally and I dissapprove of them, then what does that mean about me? It's lead to some naaaaasssty spiraling in the past, some even this past winter. I think it is an Fe/Te divide though to a large extent. If I have illogical feelings (read: illogical but not morally bad), I can sort of go "eh human nature, par for the course, just put it in a box". I could see for a Te user that simply won't be good enough. Morally bad though? Oh hello deep dark pit, excuse me while I fling myself into you.

I do this same thing, but I know from experience -- with interacting with you and from my own interactions with others -- that we have different standards for what kind of venting outlets are acceptable. In your case, people are so used to you being ranty, that people don't take it personally when you rage at/about things. It's just you being you. I think this differentiates you from most 1s, tbh, because most of us are either introverts, thinkers, or both -- meaning, what people are used to is a very subdued and restrained person, relatively speaking.

This isn't to say that I don't rant a lot. Because I do. But I never, ever use debate as an anger outlet. I use storytelling as an anger outlet. I rant about the bad things that happened in my day, and I make those rants funny. So my audience is entertained, I feel better, and everyone wins!

This makes quite a bit of sense, and I've never consciously thought about this before. It's sort of like when the quiet person in class suddenly start talking and says profound things. Everyone turns their head and stairs. It's not a normal thing and it garners attention. Thus if someone is even keeled and prides that image and puts it on, when they lose it it seems all the more unusual and people respond more strongly. Since I react to things so much in all kinds of ways, it's sort of forced me to come up with tons of different ways of expression so I can convey the correct feeling or intensity since it's "normal" for me to be dramatic.

I rant a ton, but it never feels like enough because I am still suppressing the feeling (full on ranting is way too jarring for people- I've tried). It's cause I'm an Fe-dom (ranting and being dramatic is what we do). I suspect if there were ever an Fi-dom 1 it would be a parallel. I wouldn't say I use debate as an anger outlet though. It's more I run across someone who I see as wrong or evil and go into HULK SMASH EVIL mode since it pulls a double duty of venting the rage AND solving a problem (except when it doesn't). I'm not debating when I am also venting; I am bludgenoning someone with a club.

 

[Snickie]

Since I teeter somewhere on the edge of 9w1 and 1w9 as the second number in my tritype, I feel half-qualified to answer this post. Only half though.
My thoughts are that inferior Fe and shadow Fi (which is stronger than my Fe but I don't value it much at all) are the motivators toward 1, but my lack of strong Te usage (not strong enough to properly balance out Fi) pushes me back toward 9? I'm not really sure. Anywho.

This topic came to me when I was watching an episode of "Maron" on Netflix -- the main character was trying to get advice on how to hold in his angry outbursts, and I got to wondering how I would answer his question. And I realized that my answer to his question would probably be very different from other enneagram 1s' answers.

I don't have an answer for his question that's any better than the one you gave.

So, my question for fellow 1s is: Why do you hold your anger in? Why is it "wrong" for you to do so? It's a basic component of being a 1, that you be ashamed of your anger, but what exactly is the principle behind it?

Most of my anger is fuelled by shame toward myself. Therefore expressing it is wrong - why involve someone else in my own self-inflicted pain (unless they were somehow already involved to begin with)?

Let's look for a second at MBTI - left to my own devices in low-stress situations, I'm a laid back IXTP. But under significant stress, inferior Fe makes me ashamed that I let down myself and others. If it's truly my fault, then people have every right to be outwardly angry with me, and I alone must bear the weight of their anger and my shame. Usually it's for not being diligent like a good little XSTJ. My shadow functions manifest in my... I don't know if it's an alter ego or imaginary friend, but his name is Kimmit, and he's my abusive super-ego telling me how much I suck. I'm sure he was either ESTJ or ENFP (in the worst way - the "It's your fault you have autism" kind of way). He formed when I was 2 or 3, probably out of all the times I had asked for something and had been denied it. His catchphrase was "No, you don't need it." Kimmit the image faded but the sentiment remained as I went through school - the American public school system seems to cater to SJ, particularly STJs, and then NTs are stereotypical "prodigies". SP's are so disruptive and spend so much time with their heads elsewhere that they make drugs specifically to drag us back to the present so that we can do the things like good little SJs in the name of mental health. (Disclaimer: I get it, some people really do have attention deficit problems. I'm ranting about the system dismissing different ways of learning and interacting with the world as a disorder that must be corrected. A difference I should be able to overcome by myself because I'm smart but struggle with because I process things differently. Ugh.)

Because I'm smart, I'm supposed to be able to do everything an STJ does successfully, and since I'm a T-type, that means I have to simultaneously be a genius NT. I'll be the one to cure cancer, but only if I can do the things and submit the history paper on time. And if I can't/don't, then I'm a failure in the system. And if I'm a failure, then people will express disappointment that all my talents are being wasted because I won't write a paper. If only me. Blame is internalized and turns into anger.

I'm angry because I can't be the good little ISTJ everyone wants me to be. I'm angry because I have no interest in writing the papers, preferring instead to draw or watch YouTube videos or read medical case reports. Then Kimmit the sentiment shows up and rubs shameful Fi in my face. But how dare I express it.

Inferior Fe tends to play a role.
For example, my grandparents (both sets) burn through my patience reserves like one of those cars from the 60s that got like 8mpg. This has gotten to the point where have drafted a contract that forces me into a horrid mix of an ESFJ and an ISTJ. Fe-Si: be nice and polite, even if superficially, and host their every whim. If you have a hard time faking it, call on ISTJ - do your duty like a good little ISTJ and make sure fake-tert-Fi squashes down any resentment until you can burn it off alone in your room with the door locked (but only as long as there's no risk of someone walking in because how dare you hint that there's something wrong).
If my grandfather wants me to turn on the tv or show him how to change the channel, don't I dare slam my laptop shut.
My unhealthy-ESFJ grandmother wants to tell me for the umpteen billionth time all about how she wouldn't dare leave her house unless her hair was perfect and her clothes had not even a single wrinkle and how all the popular boys wanted to date her, shut the laptop nicely, sit, listen, give her my full attention, pretend there's a listening quiz on her speech.
Do not slam phones/laptops/doors/silverware. Look lively. Do the things. Shame if you fail.

My mother is a common source of anger. I went to church by myself today. This requires me to drive about 30 miles each way (20 on the interstate). You know, instead of just going to one of the local ones that are literally walking distance from my dorm. Anyway, I keep my cell phone ringer on in case she calls me in a panic or something, which has happened. Today she texted me while she knew I'd still be driving (I read it at a really long red light when I got off the interstate), and I felt like slamming my phone on the dash and throwing it out the window. I texted her back when I arrived at the place but it didn't stop me from seething. It took donuts and an hour-long sermon to cool off.
I've been known to reply to her "Are you driving?" texts with "I hope you weren't actually expecting me to answer this right when you texted me." when I got where I was going.
That's as snappy as I can comfortably let myself be. She's my mother. She brought me into this world and she can take me out. And all those other clichés.

Anyway, the moment my anger starts leaking out of my stone composure (i.e. I say something wrong or I shut my laptop a smidge harder than usual), I get berated. One time when I was in elementary school, I slammed my door because I was mad at someone, don't remember why, and my parents literally dragged me out of the room and we had "door-closing lessons." I have never wanted to stab something more than I did then. It was like, JUST LET ME BE ANGRY AND BLOW OFF STEAM. I'M NOT THE TYPE TO THROW TANTRUMS AND YOU KNOW IT. JUST LEAVE ME ALONE. Anyway they threatened to remove my door if I did it again. I never (intentionally) did it again. They laugh when they tell that story.

My roommate works and sleeps at all the weird hours. Like, she goes to class but then comes back and sleeps until I decide I'm going to bed, and then she gets up and practically attacks her keyboard, and it's almost misophonia how much I can't stand it and can't sleep through it (I've tried earplugs, they're too umcomfortable and the sound filters through anyway). I cry when I'm really really angry, and I've cried over her doing this. I wanted to throw her laptop out of our third-story window. But I can't let her know. She needs to do her homework more than I need to express my anger. Or sleep. All I can allow myself to do is calmly ask her to do her homework either at another place or at another time. What irks me? She claims she has no problem sleeping through my manic nighttime typing. This is a contradiction for me. Golden rule. I don't want her typing while I'm trying to sleep. By that logic, I shouldn't type while she's trying to sleep. And I should let her sleep when she wants. I could go do homework elsewhere. But then tert Ni (let's assume I'm ISTP) smushes Se-aux (a frequent occurence I'm afraid) and says it's too much work, and shadow Si (bodily awareness?) reminds Ti-dom that I need sleep too.

My dad does this too, though his excuse is that his circadian rhythm is totally messed up by his chronic illness and lack of a routine (which he wouldn't have the physical energy to keep up anyway).

This is what my super-ego does. As soon as I get angry at someone personally, they justifies the other person's POV. Golden rule. "I wouldn't want my roommate telling me I can't do homework because it keeps her awake." "I'd be just as worried if it were my own child driving on a big scary interstate highway by herself." How dare I condemn the opposite party for their good intentions and for their needs which clearly outweigh mine. My super-ego feeds all this to Fe and I'm not allowed to be angry, yet I am. Cue more shame.

Thought: My mother is INFP. Kimmit shares all of her functions, even if they're not in the same order. So Kimmit is basically an exaggerated shadow version of my mother.

It's even more annoying to me and my internal framework when someone tells me I'm allowed to get angry at stuff. Um. No I'm not? Because as soon as I get visibly angry those same people are like "no no no don't be mad." WHICH ONE IS IT?

Follow-up question: Presumably a big part of your answer to the above question would be "Because letting out my anger would be losing control, and I never lose control". If that is the case, where do you draw the anger line, between being in control of your anger and not being in control of your anger? How angry do you let yourself be, before it embarrasses you?

Going by your anger scale, let's just say this:
Level 1: ok. Angry face can be excused as "resting bitch face" if anybody asks. (Anybody asking is almost guaranteed to send me to Level 2.)
Level 2: ok. Formal language is nice anyway. Just don't stammer.
Level 3: Uh-oh, I stammered. This is not ok - tone clearly indicates something is not ok and how dare something be not ok. Better exile myself. Do not approach.
Level 4+: I'd better handwrite my apology letters in cursive and smudge them with my oh-so-regretful tears

yep. I think the most go-to method 1's use to control anger is to pause and say "ok, is this anger rational, and is it also justified?" and the answer is very often no to one or both of them. It's an exteranlization that gives us REASON to control it. Without that, it seems almost impossible to do. The problem comes in when 1's over-apply this rationalization to more emotions that shouldn't get it. Thus leading to the stifiling that is often seen, and is a big reasons why 1's seem uptight or under constant tension. Since it's so useful to contain anger, it gets overused.

So much this. But just because I've rationalized away my desire to express my anger doesn't mean I'm not still angry. Cue shame, you're on in 5... 4... 3... 2...

IT'S NOT LOGICAL. NOT LOGICAL. WHY AM I STILL ANGRY. THIS ISN'T GOING TO FIX ANYTHING.
Cue meta-anger - I'm angry at myself for being angry. Look, I know I said I liked spirals, but not this kind! The visual and staircase kinds!

[...]if I am ashamed of my emotions I guard them A LOT. I sort of view innate bad feelings as a terrible reflection of myself. If they come naturally and I dissapprove of them, then what does that mean about me? It's lead to some naaaaasssty spiraling in the past, some even this past winter. I think it is an Fe/Te divide though to a large extent. If I have illogical feelings (read: illogical but not morally bad), I can sort of go "eh human nature, par for the course, just put it in a box". I could see for a Te user that simply won't be good enough. Morally bad though? Oh hello deep dark pit, excuse me while I fling myself into you.

+1
Is this what a Ti-Ni loop can feel like, with Fe grip rearing its ugly head? Or maybe shadow functions invasion force?

This makes quite a bit of sense, and I've never consciously thought about this before. It's sort of like when the quiet person in class suddenly start talking and says profound things. Everyone turns their head and stairs. It's not a normal thing and it garners attention. Thus if someone is even keeled and prides that image and puts it on, when they lose it it seems all the more unusual and people respond more strongly.

I relate to this on so many levels.

I rant a ton, but it never feels like enough because I am still suppressing the feeling (full on ranting is way too jarring for people- I've tried). It's cause I'm an Fe-dom (ranting and being dramatic is what we do).

I'm inferior Fe and this applies to me if I write a rant but nobody else knows about it, especially if I throw it away or something. If I post/share it then I have an easier time releasing it. Thus a lot of my anger outlet is online. But I'm pretty good at watering it down as I go along, usually because I'm sorting through my thoughts and things start to make more sense.
Talking about it, on the other hand. No. Probably because I'm a social introvert. Still. No. Doesn't work.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=27560]Snickie[/MENTION] I don't want this thread to derail so I am not going to comment beyond this, but I want to at least say after reading your post, I really do not see you as a Ti-dom or a 5 either. I doubt you'd relate as much as you do if you were both of those .

 

[Snickie]

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION], thanks. That's all still up in the air for me. I'm still working on a huge monster post for What's My Type. You know, instead of doing homework. A huge chunk of the reason I identify as Ti-dom is because my Fe is so awkward and repressed. I have considered INFJ but. Again. Fe. And if it isn't clear by my post, I don't value Fi in myself very much either. (Also why I'm gravitating toward thinking that MBTI just doesn't do it for typing me, much as I resent the "special snowflake" appearance that statement probably just gave me. My super-ego is just too loud.)
I also know that this is how I act when I'm really stressed/angry, and really stressed people don't act very much like their types. And for all that I've written, I don't actually get angry that often. (Except for the roommate typing thing because that happens almost nightly.) I'm usually very detached from my emotions.

But thank you for your input.

 

[Frosty]

Im not a 1 but a 1 wing but. Always- unless it is the only thing preventing me from somehow getting angrier. If something needs to be dealt with for my own good- then generally- the anger needed to deal with that is a necessary evil.

 

[Yama]

Hmmm. This thread is making me think that my ISTJ friend may actually be a 1w9 rather than a 6w5.

 

[á´…eparted]

Hmmm. This thread is making me think that my ISTJ friend may actually be a 1w9 rather than a 6w5.

1's and 6's can be easily confused because they both display tension and or anger. What differentiates them is the reasons for it, which is not readily apparent. At their core 6's usually come from a stance of not having control over uncertainty or people against a group that represents their ideals (6 can look rather Fe in some cases). 1's feel it almost purely for right and wrong ideals.

 

[EJCC]

Hmmm. This thread is making me think that my ISTJ friend may actually be a 1w9 rather than a 6w5.

1's and 6's can be easily confused because they both display tension and or anger. What differentiates them is the reasons for it, which is not readily apparent. At their core 6's usually come from a stance of not having control over uncertainty or people against a group that represents their ideals (6 can look rather Fe in some cases). 1's feel it almost purely for right and wrong ideals.

It's worth noting, too, that SJs overall have a lot of fear re: losing control and losing certainty. So determining 6 vs. 1 also means determining which aspects of that fear are more linked to Enneagram, vs. MBTI, and how they're linked.

I mistyped as a 6w7 when I first looked into the Enneagram, because of my various SJ worries. As it turns out, though, my worrying has a lot less to do with deep, existential fear, and more to do with a deep, existential need for control. Hence 1w2.

 

[Yama]

1's and 6's can be easily confused because they both display tension and or anger. What differentiates them is the reasons for it, which is not readily apparent. At their core 6's usually come from a stance of not having control over uncertainty or people against a group that represents their ideals (6 can look rather Fe in some cases). 1's feel it almost purely for right and wrong ideals.

It's worth noting, too, that SJs overall have a lot of fear re: losing control and losing certainty. So determining 6 vs. 1 also means determining which aspects of that fear are more linked to Enneagram, vs. MBTI, and how they're linked.

I mistyped as a 6w7 when I first looked into the Enneagram, because of my various SJ worries. As it turns out, though, my worrying has a lot less to do with deep, existential fear, and more to do with a deep, existential need for control. Hence 1w2.

I always knew that ISTJ struggled with anger, and he recently opened up to me about it after a bad day. It seems that most of his triggers have to do with other people's incompetence/stupidity, especially at work where he feels he is the only person who ever does anything correctly. He is a lot more quick to become confrontational than I am, and has no problem just completely writing people off or shutting them out when they do something he deems as stupid or wrong. He also has the tendency to hold grudges, and we both agree that he is the "never forgive, never forget" type. I think a lot of it does have to do with lack of control; he has no control over where he works (at the moment), or over how other people run or operate things, no control over their actions.

I had him take an enneagram test once, like a year ago I think--he got 6w5 1w9 4w5, iirc. Funnily enough, I can often be oblivious to his problem with anger because he is so much more calm in a friend setting than he is when he is alone or at school or work. Terrifying guy to piss off, though. Never get on ISTJ's bad side. He bites!

 

[á´…eparted]

I always knew that ISTJ struggled with anger, and he recently opened up to me about it after a bad day. It seems that most of his triggers have to do with other people's incompetence/stupidity, especially at work where he feels he is the only person who ever does anything correctly. He is a lot more quick to become confrontational than I am, and has no problem just completely writing people off or shutting them out when they do something he deems as stupid or wrong. He also has the tendency to hold grudges, and we both agree that he is the "never forgive, never forget" type. I think a lot of it does have to do with lack of control; he has no control over where he works (at the moment), or over how other people run or operate things, no control over their actions.

I had him take an enneagram test once, like a year ago I think--he got 6w5 1w9 4w5, iirc. Funnily enough, I can often be oblivious to his problem with anger because he is so much more calm in a friend setting than he is when he is alone or at school or work. Terrifying guy to piss off, though. Never get on ISTJ's bad side. He bites!

Yeah that sounds very 1ish, and sounds quite a lot like me. 6's don't really respond like that.

 

[Yama]

Yeah that sounds very 1ish, and sounds quite a lot like me. 6's don't really respond like that.

He also has a lot of the classic "6 anxiety" but I think the anger bubbling under the surface plays a great role in him than that. He has always been a fairly "I give 0 fucks" sort of person when it comes to things like excuses.

Lol he also told me "I'm sorry if I ever just explode at you with anger, it's not directed at you."

 

[Poki]

To me anger is not wrong unless its unwantingly aimed at someone. Someone making excuses and rationalizing is NOT wanted. Biggest issues is it causes the person issues as in most of lifes circumstances anger is a hunder, not a help when it comes to personal gain. Nger tends to hurt the angery person alot

Simple statement to angery person who upports it..."have fun with that, let me know how your life turns out"