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[Type 4] How healthy are you?

Qlip

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What's your health level? What's the healthiest you've been? What did it feeeel like?

Healthy Levels

Level 1 (At Their Best): Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative.

Level 2: Self-aware, introspective, on the "search for self," aware of feelings and inner impulses. Sensitive and intuitive both to self and others: gentle, tactful, compassionate.

Level 3: Highly personal, individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. Ironic view of self and life: can be serious and funny, vulnerable and emotionally strong.
Average Levels

Level 4: Take an artistic, romantic orientation to life, creating a beautiful, aesthetic environment to cultivate and prolong personal feelings. Heighten reality through fantasy, passionate feelings, and the imagination.

Level 5: To stay in touch with feelings, they interiorize everything, taking everything personally, but become self-absorbed and introverted, moody and hypersensitive, shy and self-conscious, unable to be spontaneous or to "get out of themselves." Stay withdrawn to protect their self-image and to buy time to sort out feelings.

Level 6: Gradually think that they are different from others, and feel that they are exempt from living as everyone else does. They become melancholy dreamers, disdainful, decadent, and sensual, living in a fantasy world. Self-pity and envy of others leads to self-indulgence, and to becoming increasingly impractical, unproductive, effete, and precious.
Unhealthy Levels

Level 7: When dreams fail, become self-inhibiting and angry at self, depressed and alienated from self and others, blocked and emotionally paralyzed. Ashamed of self, fatigued and unable to function.

Level 8: Tormented by delusional self-contempt, self-reproaches, self-hatred, and morbid thoughts: everything is a source of torment. Blaming others, they drive away anyone who tries to help them.

Level 9: Despairing, feel hopeless and become self-destructive, possibly abusing alcohol or drugs to escape. In the extreme: emotional breakdown or suicide is likely. Generally corresponds to the Avoidant, Depressive, and Narcissistic personality disorders.
 

hjgbujhghg

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If you think you're healthy you're not a 4
 

cascadeco

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The past handful of years, I think I've finally gotten to levels 2-4, and overall remained present in those levels. I definitely feel pretty healthy overall. I don't think it would be honest for me to say I've gotten to 1 yet, because I'm not sure I have, other than very brief spans of time -- which I don't count, really, I think for 1 to be legit it would have to be a consistent lifestyle / mode of being, which it's not.

In less healthy times of my life, I've stayed in level 5 (was level 5 for quite a while / was more of my 'norm', for years and years I think), possibly some bits of level 6 in spurts. Unsure about 7; maybe a bit, though I don't recognize much of it.
 

Anomoly

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I'm between 7 and 8! but i got some awesome friends here and i'm gonna use them:happy2:
 

Qlip

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If you think you're healthy you're not a 4

I started this thread because I see 4's talk about reaching some reasonable level of health very rarely. I disagree with this comment, though, a healthy 4 should be uniquely able to assess themselves as such.
 

hjgbujhghg

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I started this thread because I see 4's talk about reaching some reasonable level of health very rarely. I disagree with this comment, though, a healthy 4 should be uniquely able to assess themselves as such.

Ah right...well, I am not healthy
 

Qlip

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Ah right...well, I am not healthy

:hug: I've definitely been there. I feel like I'm around a 3, but even so, the challenges of being this enneatype remain, but I know how to work with myself more effectively. Another reason for this is that I started this is that even being 3, my inner life is pretty tumultuous. I expected my feelings and thoughts to be calmer, but they aren't really, but they are more kind.

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] I wonder, do you feel similarly?
 

cascadeco

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:hug: I've definitely been there. I feel like I'm around a 3, but even so, the challenges of being this enneatype remain, but I know how to work with myself more effectively. Another reason for this is that I started this is that even being 3, my inner life is pretty tumultuous. I expected my feelings and thoughts to be calmer, but they aren't really.

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] I wonder, do you feel similarly?

I definitely feel similarly, I'd say I'm still fairly tumultuous inside; however, I feel much much more grounded at the same time -- perhaps I feel I have 'weathered' and 'survived' all of my years of being less healthy and having much more inner angst/pain/etc, such that I know how to navigate the waters a lot better. Or rather, I know myself better? Know the emotions are a blip on the radar and this too shall pass? Have a larger view of my emotions/perspectives/thoughts? So that a given one doesn't drown me like it may once have? I think I am better able to be more of an observer of my inner state, rather than being consumed by it. I don't really know how to describe all of it; it's not like when I'm experiencing more negative states that they still aren't real/incredibly negative, it's just that I'm not sucked into them anymore; or maybe I don't *let* myself get sucked in. I guess I just feel a lot healthier these days. :shrug:
 

Kas

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Interesting.
I disagree with stereotype that all 4s are unhealthy.

I can't pick one, there are swings. Usually levels 3-5 I would say. At my best 2nd. I'm very energised then , it's like everything is possible and I have many ideas, I'm more self-confident too.
I treat everything creative I do though as someting personal (I think partly it's avoidant behaviour, so 1 level is beyond my reach for now).

When I fail myself I temporarly get to 7 level and that's terrible
I think that the main problem with our type is stability. I can feel very good, but then one event can destroy everything I was working on.
 

hjgbujhghg

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:hug: I've definitely been there. I feel like I'm around a 3, but even so, the challenges of being this enneatype remain, but I know how to work with myself more effectively. Another reason for this is that I started this is that even being 3, my inner life is pretty tumultuous. I expected my feelings and thoughts to be calmer, but they aren't really, but they are more kind.

I think, maybe for this type it might be harder to get healthy, than for any other. I think I've been fluctuating between levels 4 and 7 for quite a time now, depends on what day it is.
I find it hard to get out of the unhealthy circle, because I idealized it to the point everything else seems fake, untrue and superficial to me. And that's the basic problem of an e4, whenever you find yourself in a rut, you connect the emotions to your ego to create the false image that you desperately need to feel true to yourself, then any distribution of this image seems like a personal attack you can't bare and find yourself in more and more routine, that is not healthy. I personally don't want to be healthier, because I'd feel it's a betrayer of myself, even though I know I am not good for me.
 

Kas

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I think, maybe for this type it might be harder to get healthy, than for any other. I think I've been fluctuating between levels 4 and 7 for quite a time now, depends on what day it is.
I find it hard to get out of the unhealthy circle, because I idealized it to the point everything else seems fake, untrue and superficial to me. And that's the basic problem of an e4, whenever you find yourself in a rut, you connect the emotions to your ego to create the false image that you desperately need to feel true to yourself, then any distribution of this image seems like a personal attack you can't bare and find yourself in more and more routine, that is not healthy. I personally don't want to be healthier, because I'd feel it's a betrayer of myself, even though I know I am not good for me.

Yes I think it is easy to stuck in a circle like that. Moods influence much evaluation of oneself (and they become part of the person)and then it's hard to change anything in life.

It wouldn't be a betrayal of yourself. You would need to accept the change in your behaviour, way of thinking. But it wouldn't change who you are.
 

Gawain

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What's your health level? lvl3 At least, I can usually tell because it's the average of the three descriptions that best fit. And right now that's levels 2, 3, and 4.

What's the healthiest you've been? lvl1

What did it feeeel like? That's a hard one. Because we are all different, my feelings and thoughts at lvl1 will be uniquely my own. It's hard to pin down the stuff that's not so universal that everyone will feel it, but not so unique that no other 4s will feel it either. It's even harder because I know so few 4s in my personal life. But I will try to the best of my ability to describe it in my next post. Apologies in advance, this will be a bit long...
 

scantilyclad

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I'd say I'm a level 3, but sometimes I feel like a level 5. I think I've been a healthy level 2 before.
 

chickpea

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i don't even think i've gone higher than 4 ever. i've probably bottomed out at 8 although parts of 9 resonate too. right now i'm like a 6 but that could change tomorrow.
 

SpankyMcFly

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I disagree with stereotype that all 4s are unhealthy.

Same here.

I think that the main problem with our type is stability. I can feel very good, but then one event can destroy everything I was working on.

You can't really grasp stability by itself, it's a byproduct imo, like happiness. Stability can come about due to self awareness ---> acceptance ---> confidence + a degree of experiential knowledge. The peaks and valleys of my mood oscillations have greatly diminished with age, mostly the downside. It's a good thing to not experience frequent lows or deep troughs of them, but at the same time annoying because sometimes the best/quickest way to get through something is to let er' rip and be done with it.
 

BadOctopus

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I'm a 5 with a 4 wing. Can I answer?

I like to think I'm usually between level 2 and level 4. But I suspect that might partially have to do with my being a 5, and having a tendency to evaluate myself regularly with the intent of being objective. Very occasionally, I will reach level 5, and become antisocial and withdrawn. But I usually recognize when I get that way, and try to do something about it, because I know it's not healthy.
 

Kas

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You can't really grasp stability by itself, it's a byproduct imo, like happiness. Stability can come about due to self awareness ---> acceptance ---> confidence + a degree of experiential knowledge. The peaks and valleys of my mood oscillations have greatly diminished with age, mostly the downside. It's a good thing to not experience frequent lows or deep troughs of them, but at the same time annoying because sometimes the best/quickest way to get through something is to let er' rip and be done with it.

Oh dear. It looks like a long way and I'm at the stage 1.

I like to think I'm usually between level 2 and level 4. But I suspect that might partially have to do with my being a 5, and having a tendency to evaluate myself regularly with the intent of being objective. Very occasionally, I will reach level 5, and become antisocial and withdrawn. But I usually recognize when I get that way, and try to do something about it, because I know it's not healthy.

When I get too emotional and moody there is a part of me which makes me rationalize what is happening (although sometimes too late;)) I think it is linked with 5.
 

Gawain

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First, some backstory. I had a very happy start to life. It's easier to know what healthy is when that's how you started out. My family is very conservative Christian, and I'm not. When I was 18, my mom kicked me out and things only got worse from there. At about 19-23 (I'm 30 now), I was spiraling down to rock bottom. I stayed at lvl9 long enough that I attempted suicide. I found out about the enneagram at this point, after having already experienced every level of mental health a 4 can experience. The descriptions of healthy to unhealthy were actually instrumental in pinpointing my type, since no other type experiences it quite the same. From my experience and the way everyone talks about it online, I feel it's important to point out that healthiness is just that. It's not some elusive form of enlightenment. It's not something that makes someone a better person. You can be completely healthy and still be a dick. When I'm healthy, I still forget to think about how other people will perceive my words and actions. I still break rules because I think I've found a better solution. Healthy just means I'm not self-sabotaging or lashing out. And when I do make mistakes or get hurt, healthy means that I have a better chance of fixing it or healing quickly. That's it.

Now for how it feels. :) If you ever want to see a perfect picture of health, watch the bouncy happy kindergartners that haven't known much hardship. They are excited for every new day, no matter how ordinary. They can show you the beauty in everything, be it a drop of water on a flower or the pattern of blood splattered from fresh roadkill. When I'm healthy, I can see the world with the eyes of a child. But there is something else, too, for me at least. There is a burning, blazing sense of passion. There is a song that refuses to be silenced, and the more the world throws at me, the louder it gets. I thrive off of challenge. My stories are the stories of knights riding out to right wrongs and slay the monster. So if the monster attacks me first, I am in my element. What would have been a beautifully boring day of gazing at pretty colors and listening to soft sounds has now become a quest for success and an adventure for the soul.

At my healthiest, I have laughed at the fact that the car broke down on Route 66 in the middle of the Mojave Desert and we had to push it for miles in the middle of the night. I enjoyed the beauty of the sky, the coolness of the night air, and I sang as I pushed. When my mom snapped at me, I could forgive her and realize she was just worried about how much it was going to cost. I could keep humming quietly and let her process it in her own way. I've been homeless and after putting the last load of my things into a storage unit, I was excited and happy despite everything. I knew it would be a great adventure to be homeless, and someday I would have amazing stories to tell. Since I want to write a novel someday, I knew these experiences would be retold as my protagonist faces the same things.

But the most self-creative thing I have done thus far is to redefine what my personal purpose in life is. Of course, that's a silly way to word it. There's no purpose to life. It just is, and that's the beauty of it. But humans being what we are, we like to make a purpose. So I did the thing. I defined myself. Gave the whole thing a mission statement and all that. I started out with social and crowd anxiety. No idea why. Mob mentality just scares the shit out of me. So, I worked in a job where we are outnumbered over 600 to 1. I mastered my social and crowd anxiety, and found I can not only have fun at it, but also develop my tactical expertise to a point that I can now see the patterns in moving traffic. (They're beautiful, by the way. It's like watching ripples in a stream, but with moving people.) I defined myself by my job. I can talk just about anyone into moving where I need them to move. I can move whole crowds and keep them (mostly) entertained while I do it. I can make small adjustments that cause patterns to form in the flow of the people walking through, so from an aerial viewpoint, it would look like the mob is a trained drill team. And then? I left. I decided I was done, and I moved on. I focused for awhile on being nice and making people happy. Then, on entertainment and showmanship. Right now, I'm focusing on steering boats. It uses some of what I learned before, but it's a lot quieter and very peaceful. The drop from lvl1 to lvl3 healthiness came after, because I had an actual physical surgery and the isolation and family drama that go on when one is off work that long create emotional trauma as well. Old wounds have been re-opened, and it'll take awhile to recover. But it's ok. I can still remember what it felt like to be whole, and I am still recovering. For now, I can steer a boat, and watch the ripples and feel the wind. And someday, when the wind blows hard and gives me an adversary worth fighting, I'll be able to fully appreciate the experience again.
 

Gawain

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Am I the only one that sees the irony in a bunch of INFPs discussing stability? lol I think stability is overrated. As long as the changes are incremental and not wildly vacillating back and forth, change is to be expected. If we were to think about this in physical terms, no one expects to stay perfectly healthy all of the time. People get colds, and sometimes more serious things like pneumonia or chronic conditions like asthma. But as long as you don't go from perfectly healthy to full fledged lung cancer and back, it's kinda normal. Being healthy is ideal, and it's a good goal. But there's always going to be some hiccups.

And I think all the 5-types are in agreement here. Being able to look at oneself objectively is incredibly helpful when one's own behaviour is throwing up red flags.:)
 
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