[Type 4] 4s: is this what you're really like?

[OrangeAppled]

^ I have gotten the "snob" thing since I was a teen, but there is also a gulf between how people read me and how I feel.
I would agree that 4s may be read as "I think I am better", but that's not necessarily how we feel about ourselves. I was surprised at that feedback too because it wasn't how I experienced things. Lots of other people sharing an opinion of how you appear is not truth about who you actually are, positive or negative. However, adjusting yourself to not be misunderstood is wise, yes.

And the clinging to certain areas where one feels some strength - that's a compensatory identity. Often, it is an ideal self born out of true strengths, but you give yourself a way too high standard so that you are sure to fall short. The 4 is the masochistic type after all. And envy may not be a problem if you were more realistic....you must compare yourself to extraordinary people, not peers.

Personally, my sense of self as a child was based on feedback from others. I was the arty smart girl because people told me so from a young age. I had other evidence in terms of awards and grades and whatever. Like many 4s, I didn't feel confident enough about any of it to pursue actual accomplishments. I was inhibited by shame. Instead I shrunk away and lived in a fantasy world where I could be whoever I want. The gulf between the ideal self (aka higher potential) and real self gets wider when 4s do this, but I don't think the ideal self is all based on self-delusion; it may simply blow real strengths to crazy proportions so you never can meet it.

I also believed I was cold and uncaring because people told me that, even though it was not how I felt either. Introjection is a 4 problem, and it's both positive and negative messages. The identity is rather unstable because of it. You swing between elitism and inferiority, but even under the elitism is a sense inferiority because of the gap between the ideal and the real self; even if your real self is awesome but you cannot see it because of the envious longing for something much greater.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I watched some of the video in the OP. I would not describe E4 as being defined by being depressed or having negative emotions, but those are just often inevitable side-effects for the way an E4 relates to the world. The driving force is more about identity and figuring out a place in the world and perhaps having a kind of hyper-awareness that can result in some hypersensitivities. Having a voice or being voiceless, having an identity or not being seen are the focus and not just straight up depression. There is a powerful drive to know oneself which also leads to another conflict in terms of place in the world. When we know ourselves deeply, it is difficult to convey it externally, and so we can find ways to represents fragments of it, but there is this ongoing question of whether seeing ourselves alone is enough to define existence or if there needs to be some type of external acknowledgement to verify the actual truth of one's deep existence.

It is difficult to have a voice in the world because most everything is on autopilot. The following video is of a world famous violinist Joshua Bell playing in a subway station and the people react based on their normal routine. This is a good representation of what it can feel like to be an E4. He isn't communicating with the others based on their norms and expectations, but is presenting something unexpected, but still his truest, deepest voice, and no one can see.

 

[cascadeco]

^ I have gotten the "snob" thing since I was a teen, but there is also a gulf between how people read me and how I feel.
I would agree that 4s may be read as "I think I am better", but that's not necessarily how we feel about ourselves. I was surprised at that feedback too because it wasn't how I experienced things. Lots of other people sharing an opinion of how you appear is not truth about who you actually are, positive or negative. However, adjusting yourself to not be misunderstood is wise, yes.

And the clinging to certain areas where one feels some strength - that's a compensatory identity. Often, it is an ideal self born out of true strengths, but you give yourself a way too high standard so that you are sure to fall short. The 4 is the masochistic type after all. And envy may not be a problem if you were more realistic....you must compare yourself to extraordinary people, not peers.

Personally, my sense of self as a child was based on feedback from others. I was the arty smart girl because people told me so from a young age. I had other evidence in terms of awards and grades and whatever. Like many 4s, I didn't feel confident enough about any of it to pursue actual accomplishments. I was inhibited by shame. Instead I shrunk away and lived in a fantasy world where I could be whoever I want. The gulf between the ideal self (aka higher potential) and real self gets wider when 4s do this, but I don't think the ideal self is all based on self-delusion; it may simply blow real strengths to crazy proportions so you never can meet it.

I also believed I was cold and uncaring because people told me that, even though it was not how I felt either. Introjection is a 4 problem, and it's both positive and negative messages. The identity is rather unstable because of it. You swing between elitism and inferiority, but even under the elitism is a sense inferiority because of the gap between the ideal and the real self; even if your real self is awesome but you cannot see it because of the envious longing for something much greater.

This is a great post, and I think sums up a lot of things.

I'm not going to pin it all down on enneagram, as I'm sure this ties into other aspects of my personality too, but what you wrote re 'never meeting ideals' or comparing self to extraordinary vs more 'normal' reminds me of when I was growing up and doing both piano and oboe, I didn't major in either because I knew objectively I wasn't good enough. Re piano, I was quite good, but.... also not really. Not compared to performers. And, I didn't want to be a teacher. Same with oboe. I absolutely loved playing in the orchestra, but when going to state, being chair #4 in the top orchestra vs chair #1, I knew I didn't really have a shot at actually being in a professional orchestra. There's so much tied into this though... obviously had I had the belief, or absolute passion, I may have practiced more, actually done better, had the chance, and so on, but anyway your comment made me think of that.

Maybe more directly applicable to this is my art/watercolors -- I mean I did it for fun for years, but never seriously considered trying to be *serious* about it, because I figured, uh, I wasn't ever going to be a genius artist or 'really good' like 'everyone else out there who is an amazing artist'. But I finally eventually decided to take it more seriously and devote myself to it a lot more, and while I still am not the greatest thing out there, I'm not letting that stop me anymore.

I think 4's create a ton of self-fulfilling prophecies, with their own thoughts as well as the dynamic/interplay between others. I suppose any type creates their own sorts of self fulfilling prophecies, but obviously I'm pretty familiar with the 4 version of it [and your amusing example dialogue up above sums up the Major 4 one quite well]

 

[thoughtlost]

I think feelings of superiority are fleeting and more common in younger or at least less mature 4s. I used to have a really inflated sense of intelligence. Even as a young child. I'm smart.... but I'm not THAT smart, and part of the reason I felt that way was because I wasn't close enough to other people to realize that I wasn't actually some child genius. As I grew older and I saw more examples of intelligence around me, I eventually dropped the thought that I was of superhuman advanced intelligence, and sometimes now I even feel downright stupid compared to others. 4s exist in such a tiny little bubble thanks to their withdrawn nature that it's actually quite easy for them to say "well, here I am away from all those people, I'm so different," and to compensate for the inferiority aspect of it, they cling to whatever it is that they perceive themselves to be skilled with.

There is also an element of lack of awareness within younger 4s I think. I was absolutely shocked when my ex told me that before we started dating he thought I was "hoity-toity," as in "marked by an air of assumed importance." Honestly, it was a slap in the face and I never realized I had come across as superior to others. This, of course, is an embarrassing realization for a 4 but is eventually accepted as a chance for growth, as 4s strive to always be bettering themselves and moving closer to "human," in a relatable sense.

This right here is how I would describe my 4 friend exactly.

She talks about being smarter than 95% of the population and the only ones who can even come close to her level are ENTPs. She is highly socially aware (think high school teenage girl who thinks about what the popular kids are doing and is constantly critiquing those norms). That's where her intelligence lies, I guess. She is good at knowing what the social trends wherever she is (in her family, among people in her university, or even among her small circle of friends) ...there is always some social "trend" she sees that everyone else is doing, but her.

I wouldn't look at her and see this super amazing genius that she sees in herself, though. I honestly just see a girl who whines, saying "everyone is off getting married/being a capitalist/following whatever social trend ...but not me... I am the only unique one". It doesn't even make sense because she even realizes she is like the "ordinary people" she critiques. If it looks like she is the same as others, then what's different about her is reasoning behind it. For example: "everyone is married because they believe in the lie that they should get married and that marriage is the epitome of true love. Marriage only serves practical reasons. I am above everyone else because I see that when others don't." I try to tell her that not everyone is getting married because they they are "buying into some social construct ...I am sure that some people realize that marriage is for practical reasons too..."

...But that's the kind of logic that makes her feel like she is special/intelligent/critical ...so I won't bother changing her perspective since it's really just tied to her feeling like she is unique. the only way to change how she thinks is stop her from seeking confirmation bias about how she is so special.

Also, I don't think it's fair that she paints everyone else as some blind/emotion-less herd of sheep and she is the only one who thinks critically. Like, she knows that ...but she'd rather talk in terms of "everyone else" than point out that there are some people who are like her and some people who are not.

She really isn't as "above/different" as she says. She just FEELS that way. And just as [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] said, it just turns in to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I meet a lot of arrogant people who are not E4. I don't think that it is a defining factor, but something that can occur. The people I know that always talk about being smarter are not about original identity. If you are really striving towards originality, then it can make comparisons obsolete. If a person is unique enough, then the competition becomes irrelevant.

For myself, I do not think I'm smarter or more talented than others, but I don't think that others think a lot like I do. I'm glad others are smarter or more intelligent because its lonely enough to be different - and it would only be lonelier at the top so to speak.

I don't think of creating something better than anyone else, but something that is wholly mine, entirely different from others and therefore can provide some type of contribution in the universe. I do get that people will call that "special snowflake syndrome", but I like that. It is actually the kindest perspective I can imagine in the world because it is saying that not only am I unique myself, but everyone else can be too. That's the whole point of snowflakes all being different. Anyway, I know that's the painful clique, but I think the drive towards originality is misinterpreted in a competitive way that really bothers me and is a big problem for myself in the world.

 

[neko 4]

I'm a 4 with bipolar and schizophrenia but to me, that's an illness and my personality is something separate. Yes, I've had bouts of depression but that isn't who I am as a person, it's symptoms of an illness.