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[Type 4] Inflated numbers of INFx 4s. Let's be honest about it.

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
Official MBTI had "abandoned" cognitive functions by something like 20 years ago, perhaps more...

Had you read Jung original concept? I will link the read in the end of the post.

I have my own subjective resume of the idea... I think I get it... It is in two of my posts...





Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

Also, MBTI is more or less of agreement because it is based on some statistics because they measure your preferences, then using your preferences they form a type, and they gathered statitics from that type. But yep, its still self-awareness, not totally for MBTI, for enneagram it seems to be totally.

In all honesty, I am only marginally interested in this system of typing. In fact, cognitive function wise, I prefer the Objective Personality System. But even so, the only system I have intense interest in is the Enneagram.
 

Vendrah

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In all honesty, I am only marginally interested in this system of typing. In fact, cognitive function wise, I prefer the Objective Personality System. But even so, the only system I have intense interest in is the Enneagram.

I edited the post a little late lol...

What is objective personality system?
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
I edited the post a little late lol...

What is objective personality system?

You can find some videos about it on YouTube if you are curious. It is structured impressively, but it is not the same as Jungian/MB. Rather, it is an update on the original with the intent of creating a system that is actually capable of consistently and objectively observing and measuring cognitive functions, with 3rd party (and beyond) verification. Basically, it aims to take the uncertainty out of cognitive function identification with clear definitions and a simplified but detailed process of observation/analysis.
 

Vendrah

Well-known member
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Messages
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You can find some videos about it on YouTube if you are curious. It is structured impressively, but it is not the same as Jungian/MB. Rather, it is an update on the original with the intent of creating a system that is actually capable of consistently and objectively observing and measuring cognitive functions, with 3rd party (and beyond) verification. Basically, it aims to take the uncertainty out of cognitive function identification with clear definitions and a simplified but detailed process of observation/analysis.

Do you have any text about it?
You tube videos in english are hard time for me.
I didnt finished English course. I stopped in the intermediate level, but I got practice in reading (and did one homologated-test and it said I was advanced in text interpretation, intermediate-advanced in everything else). I dont have a english language conversation (I mean by voice) in years.
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
Do you have any text about it?
You tube videos in english are hard time for me.
I didnt finished English course. I stopped in the intermediate level, but I got practice in reading (and did one homologated-test and it said I was advanced in text interpretation, intermediate-advanced in everything else). I dont have a english language conversation (I mean by voice) in years.

I understand. Unfortunately, it is mostly video based as of now.
 

Tonitrum

Member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
289
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INTJ
Enneagram
584
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sx/sp
If you think you are a 4 and you aren't arrogant, then guess what... you aren't a 4. Rather, you are probably a 9 or a 6. The inferiority complex of a 4 is one part of a two-sided coin. To combat inferiority, 4s elevate themselves above "commoners" by romanticizing not only their defects, but also the image of who they want to be..

What? I thought that romanticizing own self image was an Enneagram 3 thing... How it is 4 precisely? There is no enneagram that is particulary bad and arrognant, and there is not enneagram that is good and soothing in particular too, you way of assesing things here seems to be entirely based on "Good - Evil/Black - white" way of thinking, rather than based on facts, based on the rest of your post.

Eitherway response on-topic, I agree with what OP said. The INFP with enneagram 4 is very annoying indeed. not every INFP should be with enneagram 4, and neither anyone who has values or has emotions or tend to feel melacholy for various reasons should automaticaly be INFP either. Pretty sure why feeler types gained bad reputation in general was because of tumblr pseudo INFx emos.
 

Vendrah

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You can find some videos about it on YouTube if you are curious. It is structured impressively, but it is not the same as Jungian/MB. Rather, it is an update on the original with the intent of creating a system that is actually capable of consistently and objectively observing and measuring cognitive functions, with 3rd party (and beyond) verification. Basically, it aims to take the uncertainty out of cognitive function identification with clear definitions and a simplified but detailed process of observation/analysis.

Wow, I slept in the end of this afternoon (a long nap) and I got a dream right insipired on what you said.

I wake up now and decided to post it now (right after 10 minutes, had to had a cup of water first, waked thirsty).

I firstly entered to play Gran Turismo, which was a simulation racing game (some think the simulation isnt that good and I agree that it has it sins). But I dream that instead they had a somewhat arcade version of Gran Turismo, like the equivalent of Forza Horizon for Gran Turismo. And they had released a new car, that was one of these particular boring Vision Gran Turismo (a fictional car that had ugly and bizarre appearence in the name of dreameds 1000s HP and particular bad phyisics) and they released two tracks. And I went to their time trial, which was a few laps on the first track and 2 laps on the second one (the second one was a long track). They were supposed to be inspired in "Burnout Paradise" (Burnout franchise was killed by Eletronic Arts more than 10 years ago), so I already started slightly excited for it.

I had done the first track, and, well my unconcious did quite of a job. I had a super-fun time, it included big jumps, cool stunts, it had a cool sunset and it end in the night. Everything was new to me but I done a good job (when the stuff is new in FPS and tracks I am usually with the first ones to adapt... It remembers me the beta of Gran Turismo Sport, was one of the best in the first weeks before some guys devoted thousands of hours and got way ahead of me in the final version and I didnt wanted to train because I had other things to do plus having hundreds of laps, dozens already bored me, alone in order to achieve ultimate mastery is boring to me). I got first and gold on the leaderboards on the first try (I dont knew anyone on that leaderboards... I dont know if those were AI or were supposed to be real players). And ok, so far, it looks like this has nothing to do with this thread, but just wait.

On the second track, that looked even more cooler, it had a very cool music (this is what, the 8th music that my own head creates in dreams in the last 3 years..? But this one wasnt exactly creative, it was kind of a cliche), and it was a pleasent drive and it was night time, the big headache of FPS and driving gamers (most people in these games dont like night, it fogs their view, I like both literal fog and night because its a different condition, it is boring when its just day clear weather all the time). This track was even better but yup, no need to detail. It was super fun but I had 3 crashes and that kind of screwed my time...The thing is on the ending of the dream...

In the end of the dream I got 2nd on the leaderboards, and this was more or less (I remember it foggy) like this. Ill put person A, B, C, D... because, I dont remember the names:
1 - Person A..........................................7
2 - Me..................................................9
3 - Person B..........................................1
4 - Person C..........................................1
5 - Person D..........................................1
6 - Person E..........................................8
(this goes until 10th)

I dont remember the sequence, I remember that it was lots of 1s, I was 9, and the person first ahead of me was 7, and there were a few others numbers that were not 1, 9 or 7. I was the only 9 and the first was the only 7.
Then I woke up right after I saw it. I didnt had read anything on a legend, it didnt had something like "Position-Name", no... But it was obvious what these numbers meant... They were definitely enneagrams! Im super sure of that!

Basically, in the second race I was typed based on how I drove. And everyone was that. I was typed with objectively by a 3rd party. I didnt inserted any personal info on the beggining of the dream. And this was quite of a dream, I (my unconcious to be more precise) created one car (bbaaddd one!), two tracks (amazing ones!) and one song (not creative but felt good). I woke quite upbeat =D!

I remember after woke up one idea... Know I dont know if I had this idea years ago OR if this was something that was really being done. I remember that some software developers could/or were collecting data on the players driving and promised or could promise to create an AI based on players driving, copying players habit, speed, consistency, etc... based on the data and in the patterns of driving to be found on the data. So, if you attached a MBTI type to that data (or enneagram and I know why it was the enneagram and not MBTI - perhaps to lead to this thread and perhaps my unconcious wanted to pass an idea of 'you would do better if you were more like a 7 or ') it could be possible to try to hopefully find patterns amongs each types driving, and then use a pattern finder to type new players based on how he/she drives. Problem is, it would still needs and would have base on self-typing at the very beggining. Unless that it would be possible to create a very long method of objective typing, collect data and find patterns based on activities (like driving on a racing game) and then extend it to a bigger number of people.

I wrote this on the go, it was a dream worth to be remember. I like the idea but I have no idea about a good objective typing method.

EDIT: My tri-type involves a 7 on the second or third position... Im 9-7-4 or 9-4-7 or 9-7-5 or 9-5-7, I tend to believe on the latter for the moment (9w1-7w6-5w4)... The tests thinks I have some significant 4 on me and then 5 more rarely but I think its quite the opposite. I woke up like a 7w6 and it felt like that in the dream except that the dream said I drove like a 9. Since nothing was said that every drive was supposed to be on one type and nothing stopped me to "call" one of my other 2 types from the tri-type, I think the dream suggested that I would do better if I "listened" more to my "7 side", but thats already my interpretation.
 

Vendrah

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What? I thought that romanticizing own self image was an Enneagram 3 thing... How it is 4 precisely? There is no enneagram that is particulary bad and arrognant, and there is not enneagram that is good and soothing in particular too, you way of assesing things here seems to be entirely based on "Good - Evil/Black - white" way of thinking, rather than based on facts, based on the rest of your post.

Eitherway response on-topic, I agree with what OP said. The INFP with enneagram 4 is very annoying indeed. not every INFP should be with enneagram 4, and neither anyone who has values or has emotions or tend to feel melacholy for various reasons should automaticaly be INFP either. Pretty sure why feeler types gained bad reputation in general was because of tumblr pseudo INFx emos.

They try to design like to be that, but in the very ending they dindt managed it. In MBTI. I have reasons to think that they didnt managed in enneagram either, but no evidence (for enneagram). Managing to do that is really hard, specially with just concepts.
Its possible to correlate MBTI types with some bad or good things... Typing is a human categorization and the way they design MBTI doensnt really guarantee that "if type A is supposed to be/act like that then all types As are like that/act like that" but rather is "if type A is supposed to be/act like that then most of types As are like that/act like that" and thats one of the reasons that MBTI ethics (the official MBTI has somewhere a ethic code) says that you shouldnt use MBTI for selection/elimination in hiring (caham, some actually do, but they shouldnt if they followed the official MBTI ethics) but rather for roles on teams (assigning you the role that is best for your type). And, of course, it would start a somewhat of a type war. For example, the types werent designed to have any particular more intelligent types than others, but most of us already know that INTP, in average, are more intelligence then the other types. Isabel Myers even had an A on that, since studies of MBTI and intelligence/super talents at school are decades old. She said that the IQ tests were biased through intuitives and didnt designed to take sensors intelligence (she was refering to the N/S which was the strongest) but this is still can be seen (and this even reflects on other stats... I already related types % in countries versus Corruption_Perceptions_Index... The highest correlation was 0.8 and the lowest was -0.7) as a failure to do this type balancing/equalization.

This stuff on the last phrase is already part of my "dark"/"forbidden" knowledge and I am doing my best to not give that much clues and answers (actually, I still dont have clear answers partially due to coincedence/causeOReffectORcompensation problems).. So thats enough said about that. However, this could extend to enneagram (I have a somewhat good picture of MBTI but just guesses and hunches for enneagram). I dont really think that these 4´s emos are really that bad to society, I mean, nothing like they literally kill people in their emohood and kill more people than any other types or something like that (like some far-right on my country used to suggest for emotional people). And I hope you see that it gets way more dark when you take this serious (I like to recognize evil through stats and typing is one tool for that).
 

Silverbranches12

Permabanned
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Jan 24, 2020
Messages
10
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INFJ
Enneagram
9w8
Oh to be e6 or w6 or maybe even just six-ish and give control to the world instead of keeping it for yourself. I don't know how people have patience for the 6 in any form to be honest. So panicky and ironically out of touch with reality.

I wonder what knowing the "true" types of people would actually do for anyone involved.
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
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Iᑎᖴᑭ
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sx/sp
Oh to be e6 or w6 or maybe even just six-ish and give control to the world instead of keeping it for yourself. I don't know how people have patience for the 6 in any form to be honest. So panicky and ironically out of touch with reality.

I wonder what knowing the "true" types of people would actually do for anyone involved.

What does this have to do with INFx 4s?
 

Mind Maverick

ENTP 8w7 845 Sp/Sx
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Messages
4,785
I mistyped as a 4 because of my artistic side back before I knew much about the type and was first learning :shrug:

EDIT
Also because I had undiagnosed bipolar and emotional dysregulation disorder and that makes me have an emotional / self-critical side.

At the end of the day I don't relate to 4 hardly at all once you get into motives...like envying others, being afraid of losing identity (what is identity even?), desiring emotional intensity (fuck no, I hate that shit and used to try to numb out to everything), and things of that sort.
 

Saturnal Snowqueen

Solastalgia 𓍊𓋼𓍊𓋼𓍊
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6,124
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FELV
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so/sp
Had a bunch of random thoughts. Of course I'm a core 9 with a 4 fix so I'll relate to both, but looking at them further I think they're more similar than one may realize. 9 is supposed to be a positive core, but compared to a 7 or 2, I don't feel nearly as positive. Maybe it's my reactive fixes talking, but it's like 7s are all, "The world is my oyster!", and 2s are spreading love and rainbows. Unless I'm happy and integrating, being a 9 feels like a bunch of apathy. With all that suppressed anger and the frustration wing, 9w1s are probably more disgruntled than you think. I don't think every 2 or 7 is all happy go lucky, but that's just what it feels like.

The stereotype is too that 9s don't really have an identity. I kind of fit that stereotype-there are things that make me me, but looking around at other people I just don't feel like I have an obvious identity compared to them. I have been testing as sp/so 4 lately so that's neat, but I still go with 9 for myself. I relate to wanting a unique identity for sure, but also I think having an identity just gives me a sense of belonging and place in the world. So, I do fear losing my identity because without it I'd have no sense of self and feel like a nobody. Another 9 blending in with their surroundings. Also something I've noticed is that the 9s' fear of separation bleeds into the 4s' fear for me, because when I do get separated from something or someone, it's like part of my identity went missing and there's a big hole in me.

And yeah, they're both withdrawn types and usually Fi doms. As a 9, while emotional intensity can be..intense, for me, I spend a lot of time processing my feelings, and a lot of my feelings can bleed into the things I do which I think is 4ish but also pretty Fi. I do get mad when I'm misunderstood, but in a way, I feel like 9s are more likely to be misunderstood than a 4 cause of not vocalizing as much. And there's the little things, like 9s can appreciate beauty too(well any type can). Maybe even more than 4s, because of their ability to see beauty in just about everything and appreciating the peacefulness of nature and art being a way for them to get in touch with their feelings.

A lot of rambling, but yeah, some food for thought, since 9s are a more a common type. They vibe pretty differently on the outside in my experience(4s seem more cold and intense), but yeah, their motivations are pretty similar I'd say.
 

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
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1,848
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TiSi
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9w1
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sp/so
Generally speaking, mistyping as a 4 or even being mistyped as a 4 isn't too hard. Even someone like me with 4 nowhere in their tritype has been asked on multiple occasions if I had considered typing as a 4w3 sp/so INFP/ISFJ (and I would consider it very obvious that I am neither of those things) or even been typed as such. I think a lot of this too is related to me being depressed and really not evasive but rather indulgent in my own shame as a personality trait... I briefly typed as a 4 fixer (but also as most of the shame fixes).

I think it's sort of worth noting that, in general, all of the fears of the enneagram are pretty generalized and easy for a lot of people to relate to. Fear of being manipulated, of course people fear that, yet 8s are not a common type. The same with 4, fearing having no significant identity or general significance and wanting to have personal meaning. There are few people that would say that they don't desire this at all (even as a non-4, I find this to be pretty significant in my life, though it presents in a 6(w5) core way, I don't want to be a drone/part of the crowed and thoughtless, I fear not being "separate" from that in a manipulation skew sort of way, I don't want to be "annihilated," I don't want to be nothing).

In general, as an archetype system set up to be general, which is why you cannot look at the enneagram and type yourself based upon relating to a descriptions, especially when the descriptions overlap a lot with other types, are fairly general, and are often skewed by the authors perception of the type (ie. if the author believes they are a type 4w5 and, say, are instead a 6w5 or a 9w1 or something else, that description is going to be skewed by nature of projection; This happens pretty often I'd argue).
 

Tina&Jane

Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
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Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Maybe age when first coming across enneagram could be a factor in this? The core conflicts of enneagram 4, including that sense of missing something compared to others and the intense focus on self and identity, can seem superficially similar to general identity struggles most people in their teens and early 20s go through. I can see someone who first became interested in the enneagram around this age potentially overidentifying with 4 because of these similarities. I also think that people who are drawn to enneagram and personality typing in general are more likely to see themselves as introspective to some degree, a trait which is often attributed to enneagram 4.
 

Luminous

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I'm quite tired of the cliche that if you feel deeply, are introspective, artistic, intuitive, empathetic, sensitive, etc. that you then a 4. No. Wanna be a 4? Then you need to have envy. You need to compensate for your sense of innate brokenness by creating an image of being special and unique.
 

Vendrah

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I dont think I said it on this specific thread yet, but type 4 and type 6 are types with high Neuroticism. So, a lot of 4 and 6 questions tends to be into Neuroticism side, gravitating through things like anxiety, depression etc...
But Neuroticism isnt exactly a fixed trait and can be partially environment induced. So, a person under depression or under neurosis does indeed have a tendency to be thrown at these types.

There questions on 6 related to being careful, yet some people under trauma and under depression are careful, not because of a personality trait, but as a matter of flexibility and adaptability. Some 4 question even relate with some anxiety or melancholy, and these people are going to be thrown at type 4, but when they get better and recovery, then the type 4 and 6 scores tends to drop a lot, and you have a mistype.

enneagramandbig5.jpg
 
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