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[Type 8] Help dealing with CP6s (is it just me this happens to?)

rav3n

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This is interesting.

So those are the options when authority figures prove themselves incompetent with quantifiable negative impacts to you. How do you decide they are incompetent and what kind of negative impacts have you seen or would bother you?

I'm curious. How does loyalty come into play, obligation to the larger team you are working with, or commitment to complete something you signed up for?
My response is with a work focus in mind, since that's the direction you appear to be coming from. Efficacy and equity are the determinants for competence.

Loyalty in a work environment? What's that? As far as group, end goal is the focus.

Because when you do that you actively challenge the leader in front of the entire group. If you get to do your thing you're the new leader. If you quit or get fired you're not.
Sorry, I don't understand this. One doesn't have to become a leader. It's possible to just do your own thing with focus to end goal.
 

highlander

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How do you take over a leader role without first challenging the current leader?

I have never challenged a current leader to get into a leadership role but have been in plenty of these roles. Here are some examples of things that can be done.

1. Step in and assert leadership to fill a need, staying loyal to the person who is in charge and keeping them informed. They get credit. You get credit. It's all fine.
2. Take the initiative to start something new where there is nobody there leading.
3. If you're in an ambiguous situation where nobody is effectively leading, tell people you are in charge and take ownership and responsibility for things getting done.
4. Start small and make meaningful contributions. It is a way of building up the reputation for someone who gets stuff done.Then tell people you want a role or run for an elected office and campaign for it.
5. Develop a strategy and plan and lobby people around it. Alternatively you can be a person who facilitates the development of a strategy and plan. Then start leading execution.

If you can see a theme, mostly it's stepping in where there is an absence of leadership.
 

Bullterrier

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I have never challenged a current leader to get into a leadership role but have been in plenty of these roles. Here are some examples of things that can be done.

1. Step in and assert leadership to fill a need, staying loyal to the person who is in charge and keeping them informed. They get credit. You get credit. It's all fine.
2. Take the initiative to start something new where there is nobody there leading.
3. If you're in an ambiguous situation where nobody is effectively leading, tell people you are in charge and take ownership and responsibility for things getting done.
4. Start small and make meaningful contributions. It is a way of building up the reputation for someone who gets stuff done.Then tell people you want a role or run for an elected office and campaign for it.
5. Develop a strategy and plan and lobby people around it. Alternatively you can be a person who facilitates the development of a strategy and plan. Then start leading execution.

If you can see a theme, mostly it's stepping in where there is an absence of leadership.


Yes, that's the 6 way. The 8 way is "ok, you suck now step aside!"
 

rav3n

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And what goal is that?
Eh? Whatever end goal would be for the group, which is usually defined by the company or educational institution.

Or are you talking about social situations? In social situations, I can't be arsed to waste energy on leading. As long as no one messes with my autonomy, it's all good. Probably the only time I can be bothered to lead in social situations is when people are hemming and hawing around or are boring me to death. That's when I step up to make decisions or to get the party started.
 

Bullterrier

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And I'm not talking about an offical title, it can be though. I don't care so much for titles.
 

highlander

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Loyalty in a work environment? What's that? As far as group, end goal is the focus.

Sorry, I don't understand this. One doesn't have to become a leader. It's possible to just do your own thing with focus to end goal.

Here is a place where we differ. 6s do feel loyalty towards others. That includes bosses, peers and those who work for them. It's an important part of our makeup - the collaboration and to have each other's back.

If an 8 were to decide to go off and do their own thing or detach from the group in the middle of a big project or endeavor, and if a 6 were in charge, this could easily seen as an act of selfishness, unprofessionalism or disloyalty - resulting in relationships being damaged and/or bridges being burned. Generally, I think those things can be career limiting moves. People remember stuff for a long time and people talk to each other in professional communities they work in. I have learned to never burn a bridge because you never know when it is going to bite you in the ass.
 

Bullterrier

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Eh? Whatever end goal would be for the group, which is usually defined by the company or educational institution.

Heh, sounds like Te

But regardless of what goal, if you give the current leader the finger and challenges him, don't you think the rest of the group might see you as more of a real leader and not just a paper leader which just got run over?
 

rav3n

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Here is a place where we differ. 6s do feel loyalty towards others. That includes bosses, peers and those who work for them. It's an important part of our makeup - the collaboration and to have each other's back.

If an 8 were to decide to go off and do their own thing or detach from the group in the middle of a big project or endeavor, and if a 6 were in charge, this could easily seen as an act of selfishness, unprofessionalism or disloyalty - resulting in relationships being damaged and/or bridges being burned. Generally, I think those things can be career limiting moves. People remember stuff for a long time and people talk to each other in professional communities they work in. I have learned to never burn a bridge because you never know when it is going to bite you in the ass.
This makes no sense to me. Everyone in a group project has their responsibilities. So if everyone is working towards the same end goal, the warm and fuzzies aren't necessary.

I've never burned a work bridge. Between being a ten year career manager and being a self-employed business consultant, I well understand how important bridges can be. But if you notice, I was either in charge or doing my own thing. ;)
 

rav3n

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Heh, sounds like Te

But regardless of what goal, if you give the current leader the finger and challenges him, don't you think the rest of the group might see you as more of a real leader and not just a paper leader which just got run over?
Their perceptions are irrelevant, since they're responsible for themselves unless I choose to be responsible for them by taking on the leadership role.

Frankly, I've spent my life being made responsible for others. Tired of it and won't do it anymore.
 

Evee

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Didn't DJ Arendee make a million of these threads? And we all know what type he was..
 

Bullterrier

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Their perceptions are irrelevant, since they're responsible for themselves unless I choose to be responsible for them by taking on the leadership role.

Frankly, I've spent my life being made responsible for others. Tired of it and won't do it anymore.

I don't think their perceptions are irrelevant at all - whether you want to or not they'll see you as their leader.

That's the defintion of a leader to me (having people actually wanting you to lead them and being able to).
 

iHeartCats

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How do you take over a leader role without first challenging the current leader?

I'm not taking over the leader role. That would be too much work and responsibility.....pffft....who wants that? No thanks. I would use 2 only to adjust my position within the existing hierarchy.
 

TreeBob

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I know they are insecure because they attack me.

Well revenge... He threatened me. Ok I've already put him in place, but now I want to put him down.

One of them is a coworker and the other is a neighbour. Both have aspirations to become a boss and both are older than me. The neighbour tries to boss me around because we're both in a committee where he has a higher position.

First time somebody threatens me with something like that (and they were close between), which is why I started the thread.

Seems like you think everyone who challenges you is a 6.

I dare say you come off as sounding insecure with this and many other posts.
 

Jaguar

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A CP6 jokes about stabbing me (I recognize this as fear from him and give him a smug smile back).

A CP6 asks me if he should stab me with a couple of scissors and my reply is "should I go and get an axe so we can get at it?" and his reply is "oh, so how are you doing today...".

This comes across to me as comical. "Oh, so how are you doing today . . ." after talk of stabbing you with scissors? Tell me you just made that up. ;)
 

skylights

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Sorry I have been away from discussion for a while. Highlander made a lot of points that really resonate with my way of looking at things, and I appreciate 8s' explanations of how you guys are seeing things, too.

It seems to me like a baseline assumption of independence versus interdependence makes a huge difference in how 8s and 6s look at things, respectively. I wanted to make just a few points -

So, CP6s must be viewed in a positive light, even though they automatically view others in a distrustful and negative light?

The reason I suggested reaching out to a CP 6 who is being reactive is because OP was asking about "help dealing with CP 6s". Unfortunately, that's the best way I know of calming down a CP 6. I wish I knew a solution that didn't require the 8 having to take on an extra burden, but I don't, short of the 6 working on their intrapersonal development.

[6s] need agency externally granted.

Echoing my thought above, I think this is largely an interdependence-perspective sort of thing. 6s do like to fully understand what we're getting ourselves into, so I think we tend to prefer to "receive" agency with established boundaries from an established source, but I think we also tend to see agency as something that is gained via earning the respect and support of people, not as something that can be achieved without the cooperation of others. As far as I can see through my perspective, there are few leadership roles that can be successfully attained, fulfilled, and kept without the consent of others. It's more a line of thought like "everyone needs agency externally granted", more than "I need agency externally granted". That concept may be flawed/skewed, but it is not about us wanting/requiring someone else to help us as much as it is about believing that no one can attain leadership without the participation of others.

6s as a generality, wish to be led. With CP6s, they too have a desire to be led but mistrust authority, so they preemptively harass authority, as if authority was responsible for their needs even though authority never agreed to be responsible for them. The definition of authority is 'someone who the CP6 perceives as authority'.

I think this is mostly true, though I'm surprised that you say that the authority never agreed to be responsible for them. To me it seems like when one takes a position of leadership (even before that), one accepts responsibility for all the lives one will impact via their position, whether it is an official responsibility or not.

Of course, whether the authority actually is reasonably being detrimental or not is a completely valid question, especially being that a lot of 6 "problems" originate in the 6 foreseeing problems based on current patterns rather than actual problems themselves arising.
 
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