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[Type 4] Oh my god I'm a self pres four

autumnandtherain

New member
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
185
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION], it's really long but I'll do my best. I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit. But the things that fit... well, it ugh...


Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.

Interesting. I relate to a lot of this. I'm not entirely convinced yet that I am a self-pres four, but it seems like my most likely type right now. I especially relate to the part about wanting to seem like a good child who didn't ask for much.

It's proving to be a problem for me now when I need or want to open up to people though, because I don't want to "burden" them.
 

Galena

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sx/so
I'm curious about the social description now. There are descriptions of so four as openly sensitive, and then there are those of the social critic. I never see a reconciliation of these two very different images attempted in a single description.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
This (or Naranjo's sp description) always solidifies my stacking as sp/sx.


After re-reading Maitri I was considering sx/sp again. I think her take is that the dominant instinctual type shows the most distortion of the fixation. Expansion on that idea is that the second instinct is pretty balanced & the third a blindspot. Going by that, I would be sx/sp. [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] , you are quite right about me having the most handle on sp stuff, although still more in a 4ish way than a practical one, and sx stuff is more obsessive & incurs the most obvious form of envy for me. I don't have a handle on it & am too focused, whereas I don't have a handle on so stuff due to lack of focus.

But then I always think - is that just being a 4?

Yes, if I look at myself outside of four (and at other non-Naranjo influenced books about four) I am without question a sx/sp. That's what's great about this book. She really drills in the fact that all fours idealize romantic relationships and have relationship problems because of their push/pull and off/on. Four, by it's nature, is sexual instinct. So I think in that way a sp/sx four is going to seem sx/sp to other types, and sp/so will probably seem sp/sx. Sx doms, meanwhile are like the super-uber sx doms.

It's interesting because I've become really good friends with a sx/sp 4w5 and we have a lot in common, more than I've ever had with anyone else. We very much get each other. But if you look at us more closely, he really puts that sexual energy out there while I suppress it more. He's more a Baudelaire while I'm more a Van Gogh. :newwink:


This is absolutely not me though: (seven quote)

If not simply appearing aloof, I tend to look sour puss / haughty (sx type?) over sad & pitiful (so type?). I would've thought the cool/aloof bit was sp though. My playful side seems my last layer....

I didn't transcribe that correctly. She said, "Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a type seven." In other words, Not all self pres fours will be like this but some will. That was the nail in the coffin for me, actually. I concluded my tritype had to be 471, if I were to play the tritype game (possibly 479, but that seemed unlikely). When she said it's a type that can look like seven and look like one- well, yes, that's me. Sometimes I'm reserved and aloof, sometimes I'm playful and goofy. (And yes, I also have the haughty sx thing going on, too.) I do feel like there is a lightness to me especially when it comes to my fiction writing. I have a tendency to go humorous, which has always frustrated me. I think it goes along with the not wanting to be seen as too difficult or too much of a complainer, as well as to protect myself. I pretty much never look sad and pitiful, like ever. Also, I'm adventurous and get a thrill from new experiences. I would put myself more as tenacious/reckless than just tenacious. That's another thing I really like about this description- how she talks about the tendency to work hard and then sabotage that work creating this endless loop of masochism. Totally me.


It's proving to be a problem for me now when I need or want to open up to people though, because I don't want to "burden" them.

Yes, this is a big hurdle for me as well. It's really frustrating. I even do this with therapists and psychiatrists. I also think it's because self pres fours focus more on competency than other fours. I hate the idea of looking like I can't take care of myself and do things myself. Asking for help feels awful to me, like the worst possible thing. Realizing that I had a mental illness and would benefit from medication, that I couldn't suck it up and do it alone was a huge growing point for me in my life.

Holy shit. Immediately doubts type (again). Out of my entire exploration of personality systems, this is literally the most perfect description I have ever resonated with. I must find this book.

Yeah. Same here. I mean, it made me cry for a half hour...

I'm curious about the social description now. There are descriptions of so four as openly sensitive, and then there are those of the social critic. I never see a reconciliation of these two very different images attempted in a single description.
[MENTION=17945]Misty[/MENTION], I'm wondering if these variances have more to do with instinct stacking than the pure instinct. Yes, it's described as hypersensitive in this book. I'll write it out here in a bit.
 

mintleaf

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sp
I think different things will resonate for different self pres fours. In other words, it's not all going to necessarily fit.

most all of it fits for me, and some was actually REALLY helpful to realize as it relates to stuff in my life now. thank you!
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Ugh, now I need to read this book.

Glad you found some closure, [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION].
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Here's more from the self pres four description. Excerpts of a quote from a self pres four:

It wasn't okay to express emotions when growing up- the phrase I internalized from my childhood was, "Just suck it up and move on."

I've always had a stubborn streak, as if I'm the only one who knows how to do something right.

One day when I was thinking of someone I admired and how I came up short by comparison, I heard my internal voice say "You're not good enough." Then I knew I was a Four.

It seems like a waste of time not to be doing or accomplishing something. Even now when I feel my feelings, I catch myself trying to figure out what I can DO with them.

I also see the Reckless/Dauntless showing up in my behavior. In a way that seems counter to "self preservation" I have a penchant for spending money to buy fine things and help others out, sometimes more money than I make. It's like I get this reckless feeling that money will always be there, so why not spend it on what I love? Plus, I tend to make snap decisions without really thinking it through. For instance, I left my job of 18 years and my 20 year marriage within a month of each other.
 
B

brainheart

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Social four:

Appears more emotionally sensitive, feels things deeply, suffers more than most people. Want others to see their suffering. The hope is if others see it they might be forgiven for their failures and deficiencies and loved unconditionally.

Lament too much and often put themselves in the victim role. Too attached to the causes of their suffering.

Envy fuels a focus on shame and suffering by providing a constant source of pain- the fact that others have what they want. However, their suffering also makes them unique and special- kind of seduce others through suffering.

The way to happiness is through tears. They attract the help of others by expressing their dissatisfaction. Will rationalize their attachment to suffering instead of doing something about it. Depend too much on their needs being fulfilled by others. If you convey the intensity of your need in painful enough terms, someone will finally come to your aid and fulfill that need.

Envy motivates social fours to focus on their emotional dissatisfaction and internal lack. There is a sense of comfort and familiarity in suffering, and the hope that their suffering will redeem them.

Central issue: suffering and inferiority. Need to self abase and self recriminate, to turn against oneself, to self weaken. Compare self to others and come up in the lowest position.

Others may think of them, "what's wrong with you is that you think there's something wrong with you." May actually be competent, attractive, and intelligent, but focus on and identify strongly with suffering and sense of deficiency.

Feel a sense of shame about their wants and needs. Desire makes them feel guilty. Feel guilty for any wish. Too shy to express desires except through the display of suffering. Don't feel entitled to have their needs met but at the same time feel the world is against them or that no one gives them what they want or need.

Don't compete with others. Instead compare self to others and focus on their lack. Underneath, however, they experience a fierce competitiveness that may be unconscious- a competitiveness for recognition, being unique and special, wanting to be in first place. More hidden and subtle than in the sexual four.

Explore the pain of the past repeatedly as a way of attracting someone who will take care of them and satisfy their wants. Criminalize their wants. Suffer more keenly for turning against themselves.

Think with their emotions, get entangled in them to the extent that they can't take action. Tend to be generous and do for others, but don't take responsibility for their own lives.

In public repress anger or hatred and appear sweet, friendly, and soft. In private may become aggressive. Prefer to swallow their own poison than externalize it to the people around them. Typically have difficulty finding their place in a group and in society. May experience selves as misfits. Tend to generate social situations of rejection to confirm their shame. See themselves as victims and others as perpetrators. Don't always take responsibility for their own actions and aggressiveness.

Less likely to be mistaken for other enneagram types than the other subtypes of four, but can look like sixes in their focus on what's missing or wrong in their lives. Unlike sixes, however, they desire to be special and spend less time in fear and more time feeling sadness, pain, and shame.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Sexual Four:

Inner motivation envy, manifests as competition. Don't feel consciously envious so much as competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against someone they perceive as having more and win, then they feel better about themselves.

Believe it's good to be the best. Don't care much about image management or being liked. It's better to be superior. Actively strive to show they are the best.

Have an 'all or nothing' attitude when it comes to success. If success is not theirs, they are left with nothing. Generates feelings of hate.

Usually arrogant despite having underlying sense of inferiority. If painfully feel misunderstood will adopt an arrogant attitude as overcompensation. Can be very elitist. May refuse to feel indebted to anyone. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

Refuse to suffer the pain brought about by envy. Reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others accomplishments in comparison with their own.

Make others suffer because they have been made to suffer, so they want compensation. May seek to hurt or punish others to repudiate or minimize own pain.

"Hurt people hurt people." Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Refuse to suffer. Active insistence on their needs being validated and met. More shameless than shameful. Vocal about expressing needs. Rebel against shame connected to their desires.

Get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes others to avoid or reject them, then get angry about being rejected.

More assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Mad four vs sad social four. Expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger they don't have to feel their pain anymore.

Feel justified in blaming others as the source for their deprivation and frustration, which serves as a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

Can be the angriest personality among the enneagram types. May express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. Can be very impulsive. Want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

The competition and hate expressed by this four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. "I've got to get what I need to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful and to feel better about myself with respect to others." It's a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

Like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. Can be very direct when want somebody's love, or can become "extraordinary"- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior in an effort to attract it. Tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

Most likely to be confused with eight or sexual two. Have easier access to anger like eights, but differ from eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Fours will show anger more often because they feel misunderstood and envious while an eight often doesn't 'need' to get angry. Can also look like Sexual Twos because can be seductive and aggressive in relationships. Twos, however, are more oriented toward pleasing others.



(Brainheart speaking: On second reading of this, I relate to it A LOT. But it didn't make me cry, so... I'm sp/sx but my sx is very strong.)
 

Galena

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sx/so
Social four:

Appears more emotionally sensitive, feels things deeply, suffers more than most people. Want others to see their suffering. The hope is if others see it they might be forgiven for their failures and deficiencies and loved unconditionally.

Lament too much and often put themselves in the victim role. Too attached to the causes of their suffering.

Envy fuels a focus on shame and suffering by providing a constant source of pain- the fact that others have what they want. However, their suffering also makes them unique and special- kind of seduce others through suffering.

The way to happiness is through tears. They attract the help of others by expressing their dissatisfaction. Will rationalize their attachment to suffering instead of doing something about it. Depend too much on their needs being fulfilled by others. If you convey the intensity of your need in painful enough terms, someone will finally come to your aid and fulfill that need.

Envy motivates social fours to focus on their emotional dissatisfaction and internal lack. There is a sense of comfort and familiarity in suffering, and the hope that their suffering will redeem them.

Central issue: suffering and inferiority. Need to self abase and self recriminate, to turn against oneself, to self weaken. Compare self to others and come up in the lowest position.

Others may think of them, "what's wrong with you is that you think there's something wrong with you." May actually be competent, attractive, and intelligent, but focus on and identify strongly with suffering and sense of deficiency.

Feel a sense of shame about their wants and needs. Desire makes them feel guilty. Feel guilty for any wish. Too shy to express desires except through the display of suffering. Don't feel entitled to have their needs met but at the same time feel the world is against them or that no one gives them what they want or need.

Don't compete with others. Instead compare self to others and focus on their lack. Underneath, however, they experience a fierce competitiveness that may be unconscious- a competitiveness for recognition, being unique and special, wanting to be in first place. More hidden and subtle than in the sexual four.

Explore the pain of the past repeatedly as a way of attracting someone who will take care of them and satisfy their wants. Criminalize their wants. Suffer more keenly for turning against themselves.

Think with their emotions, get entangled in them to the extent that they can't take action. Tend to be generous and do for others, but don't take responsibility for their own lives.

In public repress anger or hatred and appear sweet, friendly, and soft. In private may become aggressive. Prefer to swallow their own poison than externalize it to the people around them. Typically have difficulty finding their place in a group and in society. May experience selves as misfits. Tend to generate social situations of rejection to confirm their shame. See themselves as victims and others as perpetrators. Don't always take responsibility for their own actions and aggressiveness.

Less likely to be mistaken for other enneagram types than the other subtypes of four, but can look like sixes in their focus on what's missing or wrong in their lives. Unlike sixes, however, they desire to be special and spend less time in fear and more time feeling sadness, pain, and shame.
*moment*

But, ugh. My so and sp are so...damn...close.
 

Ghost

Megustalations
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Bolded text is awesome. Normal text I don't feel strongly about. Struck out text is stuff that is wrong for me.

Self pres fours communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other subtypes. They are more stoic and don't talk about their suffering much.

They strive to get what they long for. But whatever they get never feels like enough.

Less likely to communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame or envy even though they feel them just as deeply as the other fours. They swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue.

Suffer in silence. This is how they think they will be redeemed and earn love. Make a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them in the hopes that others will see this and admire them for it, thereby helping them to meet their needs. Bear a lot of suffering and frustration through internalization.

Very self-demanding. Develop an ability to do without. Test and challenge themselves. They don't allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

A humanitarian with an empathetic and nurturing disposition, self pres fours are sensitive to the needy. This is how they project their pain outward, addressing it through others' suffering instead of talking about their own. They try to take care of others' pain so they don't have to fully deal with their own suffering.

More masochistic than melodramatic. Masochism is the ego strategy for getting love. [Inclined to cross that line out, but I don't know what an ego strategy is.] Devalue themselves in important ways. Want to be seen as strong and resilient. This stems from their childhood desire for their parents to see them as a person who doesn't complain, and is a good child because they don't ask for much.

They may make efforts to get what they need and want while simultaneously unconsciously working against themselves. (One form of masochism.) And so:

Impulsive/not impulsive; desire to be happy but then make themselves unhappy; focus on improving and dealing with problems/postpone actions that would make this happen; Wear self out by seeking and striving in areas they know they will fail, which will ensure the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. Ambitious, but deny and work against ambitions.

May resemble a one or three in focus on self-sufficiency, autonomy, working hard, but will be more emotional, even if they don't express it externally. Also, they will thwart their own efforts vs actually achieving like the three would.

Can also look like a type seven because they express a need to be light. May display the high energy characteristics of sevens, and may have a need for fun/playfulness as an escape from having to do tough things all the time. May appear less melancholy for this reason than other fours, a little more sunny and lighthearted.

The idea that someone would see my quiet suffering and admire me for it bothers me. If anything, I'd rather people don't realize what's going on because I'd feel vulnerable and humiliated that anyone knew I was so affected, so easily laid up by stupid things.

Those sentences about being impulsive and not impulsive, focusing on improvement but delaying it, and ambition are ridiculously on the mark for me. I never liked those Dauntless Four descriptions. This one is much better.

Thanks for posting these, [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]. They're definitely interesting.
 
Last edited:

cascadeco

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Thanks again [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] for posting the info.

Yeah, even though there are aspects of the so-dom description I don't quite relate to (they seem extreme to me, but perhaps when I'm least healthy I'm more like what it says), I think it definitely gets to the root of my main issues/struggles, so am settled on it being my dominant.

I don't have a good sense of assessing my secondary. BUT, maybe like you said about how you would be sx-dom if you were anything but a 4 (i.e., the essence of 4 has quite a lot of sx element to it in the first place), maybe that's why I feel like I identify with sx descriptions as tied to *other* e-types, but, for the sx description for 4 in particular, don't know that it exactly fits me. So I lean towards so/sp for me as a 4, as the sx description for 4 doesn't really ring true (I don't think) w/ how I engage/react irl.
 
B

brainheart

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The idea that someone would see my quiet suffering and admire me for it bothers me. If anything, I'd rather people don't realize what's going on because I'd feel vulnerable and humiliated that anyone knew I was so affected, so easily laid up by stupid things.

I'm with you on this. Maybe that's the sx second talking?

That sentences about being impulsive and not impulsive, focusing on improvement but delaying it, and ambition are ridiculously on the mark for me.

Yeah, this is huge for me too. Probably the biggest thing.


I don't have a good sense of assessing my secondary. BUT, maybe like you said about how you would be sx-dom if you were anything but a 4 (i.e., the essence of 4 has quite a lot of sx element to it in the first place), maybe that's why I feel like I identify with sx descriptions as tied to *other* e-types, but, for the sx description for 4 in particular, don't know that it exactly fits me. So I lean towards so/sp for me as a 4, as the sx description for 4 doesn't really ring true (I don't think) w/ how I engage/react irl.

Yeah, that would make think so/sp for you as well :)
 

Seymour

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It does seem to be a problem with the instinctual subtypes is that they have resonances with particular enneagram types. This seems particularly problematic with Sx & Sp and 5 & 4, given that 4 Sp and 5 Sx are both "counter types" (in Chestnut's view) and have qualities that make them more similar to their neighboring enneagram type.

Still, given that, the 4 Sp description doesn't sound particularly "Sp-ish", except in so far as basic enneagram needs take a back seat to more practical survival.

So when look at an Sp summary:

16types said:
Summary of SP instinct:
primary concerns - physical safety, comfort, and well-being; securing an orderly and aesthetically pleasing way of life (food, clothing, money, housing, andphysical health)
primary focus - security, comfort, and well-being of the environment (lighting, temperature, comfortable furniture, aesthetics, food quality)
primary ambition - using practicality and financial sense to create a secure environment in the home and workplace (paying bills, acquiring skills to ensure the orderly flow of life)
primary stresses - money, sustenance (how they will get food, when it will come, if they will like it, if it fits their diet)
coping methods (unhealthy) - over-stocking, overbuying, overeating, overpurging, oversleeping, undersleeping, overindulging in aesthetics or comfort foods, mistreatment of comfort and security as is skewed by the secondary instinct

So, it seem like the 4 Sp description doesn't really hit on a lot of the indulgent aspects, but more on the "self-denial" and "stocking up" parts. (Which are the most 5-ish parts of the Sp description.)

Conversely, the Sx description:

16types said:
Summary of SX instinct:
primary concern - intense experiences, connections, and contacts, wide-ranging and exploratory, in order to find something to "complete" them inside (sky diving, deep conversations, exciting movies)
primary focus - people and attractions promising intense energy and charge
primary ambition - looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will complete them, and then obsessing over that completing element
primary stresses - lack of intense mental or emotional stimulation, lack of an intense connection or experience
coping methods (unhealthy) - scattered attention, lack of focus, sexual promiscuity, intensely avoiding intense experiences and connections with a fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex, intimacy, and other intense "completing" experiences, as is skewed by the secondary instinct

Has a 4-ish feel. In particular, the coping strategies having to longing and a desire to intensely connect with another has a very 4-ish feel to it. So, when you combine Sx with a type 5, you get a more 4-ish feel than the other 5 instinctual subtypes. Chestnut writes:

CompleteEnneagram said:
The Sexual Five: “Confidence” (Countertype) In the Sexual Five, avarice is expressed through an ongoing search for a connection that will satisfy their need for an experience of the most perfect, safest, and most satisfying (idealized) union. This Five may look like the other two Five subtypes on the outside, having all the regular Five inhibitions and introversion in the area of relationship, but the Sexual Five places a special value on one-to-one or intimate connections.

[...]

While Social and Self-Preservation Fives are more removed from their emotions, the Sexual Five is intense, romantic, and more emotionally sensitive. This Five suffers more, resembles the Four more, and has more overt desires. This is the countertype among the Fives. It may not be completely obvious from the outside, however—they may seem very much like other Fives until you touch their romantic spot and inspire their romantic feelings.

Later, the Chestnut tries to draw a bit of a contrast between 5sx and 4s:

CompleteEnneagram said:
Some Sexual Fives say that their search for an ultimate kind of connection does not only center on relationships with a lover or life partner. One Five said he related to the idea of “emotional promiscuity,” saying, “I want ultimate contact with a lot of people,” one at a time. And some Fives with this subtype report that although they feel guarded in the face of too much emotional intensity, they have a deep desire for intimacy with a trusted few. One Five with this subtype described especially appreciating the experience of “clicking” with someone—the feeling of having chemistry with another person—saying that when he felt this he could become infatuated very quickly. Although the Sexual Five may look like a Type Four, this Five is still quite Five-ish, so is not likely to be mistaken for a Four. And while this subtype is the Five countertype and seeks to manifest an ideal of intimacy, it may be hard to discern the difference between this Five and the other two Fives, as all of the Five subtypes experience a need to withdraw. However, This Five has a need to find a special relationship that will provide both safety and an ultimate kind of love.

Do the 4 Sp folks relate to the above description?


Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?

I found Chestnut's 5 Sx description comes across as more inevitable, since there is an inherent tension between the Sx prime concern, and a the 5 defense mechanisms, so there's not much of an issue of Sx having qualities that would tend to reinforce aspects of 5-ish-ness.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I got the book The Complete Enneagram yesterday by Beatrice Chestnut. She's a follower of Naranjo. In her book she expands on his work and goes further in depth into the subtypes. It's a really insightful great read that I recommend to everyone who is interested in the enneagram. Anyway, I innocently started reading the self pres four description this morning. One and a half pages in I started wailing, and I mean wailing. I cried for at least half an hour, the hardest I've cried in years. I could barely breathe.

I am not a crier. I will want to cry and it doesn't happen. And this did it. It triggered something extremely deep within me that I have been avoiding, I guess.

Crap.


I will go into further detail about the four subtypes if people would like, but I would suggest just going out and getting the book. I checked it out at the library.

I shall seek it out.
 

Qlip

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Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?

I've been on the fence for a while about being sx, I've almost switched my status multiple times in the last few months. Not being entirely sure, the best I can do is identify my own SP instincts, wherever they may lie. When I think of protecting myself, I think of it as more active, procuring what I need to be who I want to be, not who I am. It's tied up in image.

Those needed things are often skills. My comfort comes in knowing that I can deal with most anything, I can be somewhat obsessed with it. I actually feel a little sigh of relief when something bad happens to me... like for instance, I was assaulted in the street last week. Now I know I can take a punch coming out of nowhere, and now I know to look for it in the future. It makes me feel empowered to experience and thus dismiss things like that in pursuit of whatever it is that I wish for myself.

Besides feeling relatively safe in dodgy situations, I can also rebuild a carburetor, sharpen anything that needs to be sharpened, drive stick badly even though I've never actually had a need to, I cook well. I always carry a strangely complete life-kit with me, something that starts a fire, something sharp, paper, pencil, camera. My kit used to be more extensive, but I've paired it down.

I can only really associate this level of needing to feel prepared with an sp instinct. And I often feel the only way to be prepared to protect what I want to be is to get past myself and my immediate needs.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I got the book The Complete Enneagram yesterday by Beatrice Chestnut. She's a follower of Naranjo. In her book she expands on his work and goes further in depth into the subtypes. It's a really insightful great read that I recommend to everyone who is interested in the enneagram. Anyway, I innocently started reading the self pres four description this morning. One and a half pages in I started wailing, and I mean wailing. I cried for at least half an hour, the hardest I've cried in years. I could barely breathe.
I am not a crier. I will want to cry and it doesn't happen. And this did it. It triggered something extremely deep within me that I have been avoiding, I guess.
Crap.
I will go into further detail about the four subtypes if people would like, but I would suggest just going out and getting the book. I checked it out at the library.
I've been wanting to get my hands on that book for awhile. congratulations on finding your type =)
 
B

brainheart

Guest
I've been wanting to get my hands on that book for awhile. congratulations on finding your type =)

Hey thanks :) It also made me realize that I'm married to a so/sx (maybe even sx/so?) 7w6 not a so/sx 6w7, which shined a light on a lot of things.

It's a good book.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Hey thanks :) It also made me realize that I'm married to a so/sx (maybe even sx/so?) 7w6 not a so/sx 6w7, which shined a light on a lot of things.
It's a good book.
the confusion is understandable. Social 7s are weird as hell (they look more superego than 1s and 2s lol)
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
MBTI Type
SeFi
Enneagram
4
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION], no there aren't stacking descriptions, just individual instincts. To be brief, social fours lament and perceive themselves as less than others- they are victims. Sexual fours are competitive and act like they are better than others. Social fours display their suffering while sexual fours are more likely to make others suffer.

I read through this thread starting on page 1. After reading your long post about SP 4's I thought, Hmm, some of this sounds a lot like me. Then I read this one sentence and my chest hurt. I still feel pain in my chest a few minutes later. It makes me sick that I do this, but I was recently speaking to a social 4 from PerC who was saying until she spoke to me in private, she thought i had such a big ego/ was fake. once she got to know me well privately, she saw the 4 in a very blaring way, but she was kind and brave enough to explain why others might see me as 7ish or 8ish if they don't know me. This bothers me - not because I have a problem with 7s or 8s (in fact thats flattering) but because I hate that I'm "different" in private vs public, or that it requires trust for me to stop acting like a narcissistic asshole. I want people to see me for who I REALLY am, and I want to think of myself as honest and completely shameless; absolutely myself. But I'm not. Part of myself… IS this competitiveness. I'd be fake if I DIDNT behave this way. But I also know that it's not the whole of me, that I really can be very vulnerable and sentimental. So why is that so hard to get to? I want to wear my heart on my sleeve- what is my problem??! :(

I know she's right. I know how I act. I was unable to explain why, but I told her she was right, and reading this one sentence HURTS because I know its true. I'm definitely correctly typed at SX as much as I fucking hate it and SP-4 is closer to my ideal self (or maybe Sp3, but if we are talking about 4..)

I see social fours as being sweet. There's something very endearing about them. But yes, enneagram is more real/raw, and I like that about it.
Yeah, I can agree with this. The one I met on perc just reawakens my childhood for how sweet she is. It's beautiful =)

Yeah, same with me and sp and sx. I'd say whichever one provokes the stronger reaction is the lead.

Bahaha. I'm scared to read the longer description for SX that you posted but I will.. *deep breath*
 
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