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[Type 6] Enneagram 6's. Omg help.

highlander

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'

The way I see it is...if you are administering a personality inventory during the hiring process...'unethical' discrimination will occur, period. It is unavoidable no matter how many pretty words you make use of to counteract that reality. I would love to see some actual data on this... how many FPs are hired when screened alongside TJs. <-Here is where we could ascertain how well those 'ethical guidelines' are working.

Frankly, I would rather be rejected merely because the owner of the company despises ENFPs...than because they believe I will be perpetually late and am unorganized.

I agree.

I think it's a terrible idea to administer Meyers Briggs as part of the hiring process. Don't know why anyone would want to do that. You would think the HR people should know better. I have to assume they are simply uninformed.
 

Azure Flame

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It's strongly worded so I can see how you might get that impression but I'm actually not offended in the slightest. I hold a strong opinion on this issue. Also, since you are direct in the way you express yourself, my natural inclination is to be direct in return (right or wrong).

I personally believe it is a very bad idea to make negative judgments about people based on their type. I've done it myself to be sure especially earlier on when I was learning about it. I still have an occasional weak moment, but I try to be pretty conscious of this because I feel it is a dangerous and counterproductive misapplication of type.

oh cool. fair nuff.
 

Starry

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I agree.

I think it's a terrible idea to administer Meyers Briggs as part of the hiring process. Don't know why anyone would want to do that. You would think the HR people should know better. I have to assume they are simply uninformed.

Well, they are used for all the reasons you feel they should not be used... you've gotta trim the xxxP and e6 fat. haha...oh how I wish I could attach an 'I'm kidding' here.
 

Azure Flame

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While we're on the topic, I want someone to tell me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be good for.

6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.
 

Showbread

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You should never make hiring decisions based on a person's type. Ever.

It is unethical.

The job I work generally only hires ENFJs... They give you the MBTI before your phone interview. Probably not ethical, but since it's a phone job (I call my school's alumni and ask for $$$) it definitely makes sense to look for those qualities, whether you label them with a type or not.

And on the 6's this pretty much sums it up...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinlarosa/problems-only-anxious-people-will-understand?sub=2797099_2074898

I lived with an ISFJ 6 last year, and I've also mistyped as one before. Literally everything just kind of feels like the end of the world to them. I'm not sure if this is is typical of all 6s, but my roommate was insanely defensive. I don't think I've actually ever intended to criticize her before, but she has certainly interpreted it that way. She is also probably the most literal person I've ever met. But, I also love her to death. She's the only other SJ in our apartment full of NFs.
 
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6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.

As someone with a strong 6 wing and 7 mother I will tell you whats wrong in that dynamic. Yes we fucking hate the 7 propensity to jump around, flip and switch between one project and another. That kind of shit irritates me because it makes the 7 seem flakey and inconsistent in my eyes. Not only that there are constantly shifting goal posts in terms of expectations, one minute I'm doing the right thing, the next I'm being criticised for failing to 'read her mind' and know that shes into something different now. Not only that but my 6 side likes to a see a project through from beginning to end. If you (meaning anyone) dicks with my project and requires me to now instantly and randomly focus elsewhere it makes me want to stab them in the eye.

Its less about what you are 'doing' and more about the lack of clear and consistent expectations against which one can measure their own performance and how they are tracking. While I can cope with the flakiness in my mother (I largely ignore her) in a boss I couldnt because I need to be performing to expectations and I need to know what those expectations are. I also need expectations to be reasonably consistent throughout the life of a project so I have a chance of meeting them.

It seems to me your 6's are constantly seeking validation or rather input from you because there aren't clear and consistent expectations about what you want from them and that feels grossly unfair in their eyes. 6's need a raft to board and then captain, they can't get by clinging to bits of driftwood in an ever changing sea. Be spontanesous and meditative or whatever, just don't leave the rudder unattended or they will find a way to wrest control from you in their own instinct for self preservation.

6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.
 

Azure Flame

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As someone with a strong 6 wing and 7 mother I will tell you whats wrong in that dynamic. Yes we fucking hate the 7 propensity to jump around, flip and switch between one project and another. That kind of shit irritates me because it makes the 7 seem flakey and inconsistent in my eyes. Not only that there are constantly shifting goal posts in terms of expectations, one minute I'm doing the right thing, the next I'm being criticised for failing to 'read her mind' and know that shes into something different now. Not only that but my 6 side likes to a see a project through from beginning to end. If you (meaning anyone) dicks with my project and requires me to now instantly and randomly focus elsewhere it makes me want to stab them in the eye.

Its less about what you are 'doing' and more about the lack of clear and consistent expectations against which one can measure their own performance and how they are tracking. While I can cope with the flakiness in my mother (I largely ignore her) in a boss I couldnt because I need to be performing to expectations and I need to know what those expectations are. I also need expectations to be reasonably consistent throughout the life of a project so I have a chance of meeting them.

It seems to me your 6's are constantly seeking validation or rather input from you because there aren't clear and consistent expectations about what you want from them and that feels grossly unfair in their eyes. 6's need a raft to board and then captain, they can't get by clinging to bits of driftwood in an ever changing sea. Be spontanesous and meditative or whatever, just don't leave the rudder unattended or they will find a way to wrest control from you in their own instinct for self preservation.

6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.

That is what scares me. Whenever I am taking a breath, they seem to be freaking out wondering where I disappeared to and then taking matters into their own hands. I can sense it. Like I'm standing in fog and its closing in around me at all times filling the spaces I used to occupy.

But the thing is, I am spontaneous. Its not going away. My dad told me I should give a 1 month, 3 month, 6 month plan, and update them on that weekly. Do you think that would help? I need a concrete solution.
 

highlander

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While we're on the topic, I want someone to tell me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be good for.

6's want stability last I checked. ESTJ's, ENTJ's, ENFJs', etc... they are good with providing enthusiasm on a routine basis. Whereas my enthusiasm is spontaneous and unpredictable. It frustrates all the 6's around me because I'm hot and cold. But when I get enthusiastic and I want a project done, I move MOUNTAINS.

I hate having 6's around me because they always judge me negatively based on my lack of consistency. And its painful for me to give this consistency. It is a difficult chore for me to be dependable. I like the idea that I'm a weapon that people pull out when they need it, and then they put me in the closet when they're done. Fuckin Il duce.

So am I doing something wrong? Or do I just need to make my purpose known? I think I do provide a sense of stability to others in the fact that I'm not concerned with the things they are.

The most important thing I learned when I first got into managing people was the importance of trust. It cuts across all types but it is especially important for 6s to have trusting relationships with others. I don't know about other 6s but I don't judge people negatively because they lack consistency. These things being said, I may not be typical in that regard and I do believe for many people consistency is quite important. For 6s, what may be most important is personal loyalty to the individual vs. some kind of predictable behavior. Is there something you might be doing that causes them to worry about their personal security?

I'm not sure what will work for you but here is what worked for me. After learning that trust was important, the single most important thing I learned was to extend that trust towards others. When you trust others, they trust you. The second thing I did was to try and understand and appreciate the differences between people. I would in a sense become a student of the person - to seek to understand them, their motivations, what they are like, what they enjoy doing and be able to understand how and why they would react or do things that they did, and why different people were coming into conflict with each other. Typology was a tool that supported this but it was just a tool because two people of a similar type can be vastly different. The third thing I did was to truly care about them as individuals. I would become personally invested in supporting their growth and their career. If you care about people, you are loyal to them and support them in their careers, they tend to trust you. As a 6, if I were to have a boss like that, it would engender a lot of trust. However, I will be the first to say that there have been some, particularly those with performance issues, that have been well... an issue. Performance in my experience though has little to do with type. Finally, the #1 thing I have consistently heard over the years that people want and don't get enough of on the job is appreciation. Specific verbal appreciation is probably the easiest thing to provide. This feeds into the 6s need to be secure.

With respect to being the "weapon that people pull out when they need it", I think I have run into this issue to some degree because I can move pretty aggressively into action in crisis situations. Earlier in my career, I would do this "white knight in shining armor" thing and just take over in problem situations. I was very effective with it in achieving short term results. However, it probably wasn't the best way to inspire and build the morale of those I was leading. As time went on, I developed a style in which I didn't come up with all the answers. I would instead facilitate others coming up with them.

Not sure if that helps but those are some thoughts.
 

highlander

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6's wont appreciate your heroics of moving mountains when you are interested because its impossible to tell what is likely to interest you. Your 6's are keenly interested in keeping their jobs, they fear not performing well and you are the focus of that fear because they dont know you.

I like that comment.
 

Azure Flame

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The most important thing I learned when I first got into managing people was the importance of trust. It cuts across all types but it is especially important for 6s to have trusting relationships with others. I don't know about other 6s but I don't judge people negatively because they lack consistency. These things being said, I may not be typical in that regard and I do believe for many people consistency is quite important. For 6s, what may be most important is personal loyalty to the individual vs. some kind of predictable behavior. Is there something you might be doing that causes them to worry about their personal security?

I'm not sure what will work for you but here is what worked for me. After learning that trust was important, the single most important thing I learned was to extend that trust towards others. When you trust others, they trust you. The second thing I did was to try and understand and appreciate the differences between people. I would in a sense become a student of the person - to seek to understand them, their motivations, what they are like, what they enjoy doing and be able to understand how and why they would react or do things that they did, and why different people were coming into conflict with each other. Typology was a tool that supported this but it was just a tool because two people of a similar type can be vastly different. The third thing I did was to truly care about them as individuals. I would become personally invested in supporting their growth and their career. If you care about people, you are loyal to them and support them in their careers, they tend to trust you. As a 6, if I were to have a boss like that, it would engender a lot of trust. However, I will be the first to say that there have been some, particularly those with performance issues, that have been well... an issue. Performance in my experience though has little to do with type. Finally, the #1 thing I have consistently heard over the years that people want and don't get enough of on the job is appreciation. Specific verbal appreciation is probably the easiest thing to provide. This feeds into the 6s need to be secure.

With respect to being the "weapon that people pull out when they need it", I think I have run into this issue to some degree because I can move pretty aggressively into action in crisis situations. Earlier in my career, I would do this "white knight in shining armor" thing and just take over in problem situations. I was very effective with it in achieving short term results. However, it probably wasn't the best way to inspire and build the morale of those I was leading. As time went on, I developed a style in which I didn't come up with all the answers. I would instead facilitate others coming up with them.

Not sure if that helps but those are some thoughts.

Yes the enfj 6 I'm working with does this to me. It all seems very fake. He OVERLY trusts me. Its obvious he's trying to get me to trust him, which kinda is counterproductive. He projects a LOT and treats me like another 6, which is also frustrating. Its frustrating to be told that my meditation is "me thinking too much" and by constantly interrupting my meditation he is doing me a favor. I spent a lot of time trying to talk to him and get him to connect with me but he doesn't want to become attached. He's nice on a superficial level and always shares his life with me but doesn't actually seem to care about any of my own goals or ever spent time taking my own perspective. The only thing that seems to matter to him is the gym and his self preservation, and I spent a lot of time trying to convince him that if he helps me out I will help him achieve all of that. Its a painful back and forth but my lack of trust in him is often caused by his retarded amount of fishing for compliments and overly agreeable attitude designed to artifically attain my trust. I don't trust enfj's. A lot of em are pretty damn fake.

He seems to be slowly learning how I operate. Maybe I'll make him read some naranjo.
 

highlander

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That is what scares me. Whenever I am taking a breath, they seem to be freaking out wondering where I disappeared to and then taking matters into their own hands. I can sense it. Like I'm standing in fog and its closing in around me at all times filling the spaces I used to occupy.

But the thing is, I am spontaneous. Its not going away. My dad told me I should give a 1 month, 3 month, 6 month plan, and update them on that weekly. Do you think that would help? I need a concrete solution.

What's wrong with people taking things into their own hands? It seems like you may be jumping in and out and they might be frustrated with what to expect and when.

Why not pull them together and facilitate the development of that plan you mention so that they feel like and are part of defining what should be done and so they understand it and can support it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being spontaneous. Maybe a concept will help here. There is a really good chapter in "Please Understand Me II" about leadership. It explains 4 types that each temperament tends to gravitate to:
- SPs (tactical leadership)
- NTs (strategic leadership)
- NFs (diplomatic leadership)
- SJs (logistical leadership)

I have found that I'm best at strategic. I'm good at tactical as well. Diplomatic and logistical are less strong. In particular, logistical leadership bores me. I can develop the detailed plan as well or better than most but it just doesn't particularly interest me to be ticking and tying to that on a daily basis. Left to my own devices, I will provide that strategic leadership (though not always communicating it as well as I need to) and exercise a lot of tactical leadership on a day to day basis. The result is that people may not understand why I'm making or directing some of the moves that I'm making. I have to remind myself to explain things. To compensate for some of these natural tendencies, a major thing that I do is to realize what I'm good at, what I suck at and to team with others where I have weaknesses. Part of it is letting go and allowing people to run with things, in particular in those areas of weakness. I have learned that it isn't a good idea for me to call all the shots. So to compensate for these weaknesses, I will mostly unconsciously engage with others that can provide the logistical leadership and diplomatic leadership for us to be an effective team working together.
 

highlander

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I don't trust enfj's. A lot of em are pretty damn fake.

This is a good example of making one of those negative judgments. To be honest, I have personally struggled with this Fe dom fakeness issue. In no time flat, the "bullshit meter" would go off. It was an aha moment when I began to realize - oh this is an Fe dom - that's how they express themselves and to remove some of this negative natural bias I had towards the way they tended to interact. They are just being themselves.
 

chubber

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This is a good example of making one of those negative judgments. To be honest, I have personally struggled with this Fe dom fakeness issue. In no time flat, the "bullshit meter" would go off. It was an aha moment when I began to realize - oh this is an Fe dom - that's how they express themselves and to remove some of this negative natural bias I had towards the way they tended to interact. They are just being themselves.

I have a problem with Fe too, how do you mind warp yourself to accept it? Because that Fe is sometimes to me, just really hollow and selective and ends up being annoying.
 

highlander

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I have a problem with Fe too, how do you mind warp yourself to accept it? Because that Fe is sometimes to me, just really hollow and selective and ends up being annoying.

Simple. I accept it as being no better and no worse that Fi or any other function that I prefer. They're just functions that help support your mental processes.
 

chubber

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Simple. I accept it as being no better and no worse that Fi or any other function that I prefer. They're just functions that help support your mental processes.

Are you saying that you engage Te more often to resolve valued issues?

edit: I think I have the same problem with Fi-dom too :D so it's not really just Fe-dom for me.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Hey, I can sympathise with your frustrations with your fellow mankind. I thought of a few questions as I went through your OP, which would help me understand better the nature of your problem.

I thought having an E6 as a boss was rough... having them as subordinates is just as bad! Its just fucking anxiety constantly. ANd they work their asses off to stave off the anxiety. And then as their boss who isn't a 6, I'm sitting calmly in my office meditating. They now talk behind my back about how lazy I am, or how they're worried about me because all I do is sit in my office being anxious! I'm not "Sitting in my office being anxious," I'm meditating and planning my next move, or enjoying some hot cocoa once in a while.
I guess my question here is, What exactly bothers you? Serious question, not trolling. If they're working their asses off, who cares what they say? If you're managing adequately and everyone's getting things done, there's no cause to worry. Right?

Its like they're completely fucking oblivious to the fact that other people don't have the same problems they do!
LOL, most people are like that. We all project our psychological state on others. Very normal. You should introduce them to the enneagram!

And I can't escape their anxiety. Working with them is completely miserable. If I move out of the house they live in, they visit me every day. If drive away in the car, they call my cell phone looking for validation on their decision!
First, what is it about the anxiety that is bugging you? I'm not real clear.

Given the above scenarios, it sounds more like you have every opportunity to see your vision through to a T--I wish I had employees that awaited my every response! Use it all to your advantage I say!! Though if they're really calling you out of line, I'd simply turn of the phone or not give the number out.

"Just tell them to leave you alone." I did that. I saw pain in their eyes. And then several of them started badmouthing me about how "I just want to play CEO" and "I just wanna be this" and "I just wanna do that" or how i"m completely selfish.
Is that bad? Employees are gonna talk about the boss, regardless of enneatype. Your job as boss is to ignore the petty stuff and just focus on the goal. That's what I think. Pretend it's not happening.

I'm at a loss. I have no idea how to deal with these people anymore. This is miserable and I don't know how to fucking satisfy their expectations. It seems like whenever I give them something they just want more, and when I take it away, they stop working entirely.
Question, how many of them are there? Are you sure they're ALL 6s?

Please help. I feel like I'm supposed to completely ignore all emotions and thoughts running through their head and just do what I do and they will follow. I don't like it, but I'm starting to not take anything they think or feel seriously and view them as extremely predictable. Its like I'm this dude walking down the street and they're dancing around me waving their arms and poking me with sticks to see what I do. And it just never fucking ends. My full time job is to get poked with sticks from all directions. Unbelievable.
If they're really like that, it sounds like they're immature more than anything else. I hope you're getting paid well.

However, when 6s start poking, it's generally to test you out as an authority. Hold firm and maintain your sense of humor. That's about all you can do.
 

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I thought having an E6 as a boss was rough... having them as subordinates is just as bad! Its just fucking anxiety constantly. ANd they work their asses off to stave off the anxiety. And then as their boss who isn't a 6, I'm sitting calmly in my office meditating. They now talk behind my back about how lazy I am, or how they're worried about me because all I do is sit in my office being anxious! I'm not "Sitting in my office being anxious," I'm meditating and planning my next move, or enjoying some hot cocoa once in a while.

Its like they're completely fucking oblivious to the fact that other people don't have the same problems they do!

Its like, they are this self sufficient cloud of hell that supports itself and I need to just fucking get out of the way. But when I get out of the way, they think I'm no longer supporting them, so they take over and start doubting my leadership, and giving me that fucking "you left me out to die!" look on their face.

And I can't escape their anxiety. Working with them is completely miserable. If I move out of the house they live in, they visit me every day. If drive away in the car, they call my cell phone looking for validation on their decision!

"Just tell them to leave you alone." I did that. I saw pain in their eyes. And then several of them started badmouthing me about how "I just want to play CEO" and "I just wanna be this" and "I just wanna do that" or how i"m completely selfish.

I'm at a loss. I have no idea how to deal with these people anymore. This is miserable and I don't know how to fucking satisfy their expectations. It seems like whenever I give them something they just want more, and when I take it away, they stop working entirely.

*pulls hair out*

Please help. I feel like I'm supposed to completely ignore all emotions and thoughts running through their head and just do what I do and they will follow. I don't like it, but I'm starting to not take anything they think or feel seriously and view them as extremely predictable. Its like I'm this dude walking down the street and they're dancing around me waving their arms and poking me with sticks to see what I do. And it just never fucking ends. My full time job is to get poked with sticks from all directions. Unbelievable.

As an E6 boss who manages more than 20 people in a very high volume business, I can give you some words of advice. Your employees/people under you work very hard. It is a team effort - yes you do very different things and they should realize this. Most of them won't because they aren't in your shoes. No matter what decision you make you aren't going to please 25-50% of your staff. You just have to do your best and realize there is a bigger picture even if they don't see it (it's not their job/responsibility to see it).

If you are in the office and have no validation for that time spent in there, (meditating? That would make me scratch my head too. ) then I can see their point. Or at least, manage the time spent in the office on down times for the job. You have to be hands-on otherwise respect will never be gained and it is that much harder to collectively attain goals.

Either way, you can't think of them as idiots. You will soon start to treat them as such subconsciously and your lack of appreciation and respect will show in your mood and actions.

You need them just as much as they need you.
 

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You could give them to me if I were a boss. I love this type. :shrug:
 

Azure Flame

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Thanks for the responses guys.

Perhaps my direct action will eventually yield their understanding. I'm setting up weekly meetings and trying to get some privacy.

conversation I had with my ENFJ 6 head manager:

me: I feel like everything is great when I have something for you guys to do. There's a mission in place, I'm enthusiastic, and everyone else is too. But in the last 2 months there has been nothing for us to do and I wanted to see how you guys act hands off. I'm not sure I can provide the consistent action that you guys seem to enjoy.
enfj: oh you're consistent. you're just consistently miserable and unhappy.
me: no I'm not I'm fine.
enfj: we have plenty of drive and enthusiasm, you're just not joining it.
me: I deactivated my car to save money on insurance and gas and I live on your living room floor. I can't be physically with all you guys every day.
enfj: its fine. We understand. Do what you do. (I interpret this as a passive aggressive response when matched with the bitter look on his face and tone of voice)
me: I'd like to set up weekly meetings on skype.
enfj: *sharp tone* we already have weekly meetings at the gym. You're not seeing them.

this is what I have to deal with. I ask for feedback but he always tells me I'm doing fine and nothing needs to change. Yet I have to deal with his attitude all the time. But when I'm enthusiastic and have something for him to do, suddenly everything is cool. His bitterness seems to be present anytime I act cold around him. Considering I'm a cold person and dont' always feel like smiling, its difficult when I feel like I have to be bright and smiley all the time around him. I'm thinking I just need to not live with him anymore so that everytime I'm interacting with him, its on the grounds of enthusiasm with a plan at hand.
 
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