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[Type 7] Naranjo's interpretation of Gluttony (enneagram type 7's vice)

Redbone

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Thinking about this a little more...

...it's like eating cotton candy. It's pretty much gone as soon as it melts in the mouth which makes me want to stuff more in mouth to compensate. That kind of gluttony.

So I have a problem immersing myself in an activity, experience, moment and truly enjoying it because my gaze and desire is far-sighted. This doesn't mean I'm not enjoying whatever I'm doing but the thought of "this is going to end, then what?" is always in the back of my head. I can feel upset or even frantic when things are winding down. I try to compensate by looking for very intense experiences so that I can feel "full" or even trying to push energy into things that I should just let die. I have gotten in over my head because of this.

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] , this has been true but it was hard to recognize it for what it was. I only figured this out when I read another description of 7s going through a time where something wonderful was painfully ripped away from them (I think elfboy posted this?). It spoke of having a tranquil childhood period and then that being ripped away from them, similar to what 4s experience but later...a kind of ejection from Paradise. I think the description said being a suckling babe and torn away from the breast. There is a determination that this never, ever happens again.

It's a bad thing, I know. As a 7, I need to grow and appreciate/feel gratitude for the now/present instead of instead of engaging in this intense mental masturbation by focusing on the next thing I want to consume. I was lying in the dark thinking about this a few weeks ago and was really horrified when I realized this. I felt really bad and realized that I had ruined something good by focusing on the distress that it would be over soon and being upset that I didn't have anything else to "eat".

My sister is Se-dom 7w6 (ESFP). She is materialistic and immerses herself in physical, material pleasures. Her way is this kind of moment-to-moment, rung-to-rung movement from experience to experience. It's smoother and she seems much more open and present to whatever she's doing. I think she enjoys anticipation but seems to derive less pleasure from this than I do and doesn't seem to suffer from as much feeling let down if things don't play out like she imagined they should be. I'm much more likely to be pretty upset from things not playing out like they did in my imagination. She'd be quicker to find something else to do or affect the situation to make it more pleasing to her. I guess this ability to impact what's going on right now? Not sure how to describe it. I really, really envy that about her. [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] does that sound about right to you as an Se-dom?
 

five sounds

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i definitely fill my 7-void with information as well as experiences. i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it. i do like "things" like little odd trinkety things or beautiful things or meaningful things. i have kind of a cluttery life as a result. i read that 7w6 is drawn to things like that. that also sounds like it might be sp peeking out, but that's just a guess :shrug:

in this way, i'm not relating to that anticipation as much as some other people on here. i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged. i DO feel that way, though, with life plans. i have a tendency to dream myself up a grand adventure or an awesome experience, and then not really be present while i'm there, and be looking around for more. i also really love having things to look forward to. i'm constantly placing little carrots in front of myself to keep myself moving forward. and it totally works!
 

Avocado

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i definitely fill my 7-void with information as well as experiences. i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it. i do like "things" like little odd trinkety things or beautiful things or meaningful things. i have kind of a cluttery life as a result. i read that 7w6 is drawn to things like that. that also sounds like it might be sp peeking out, but that's just a guess :shrug:

in this way, i'm not relating to that anticipation as much as some other people on here. i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged. i DO feel that way, though, with life plans. i have a tendency to dream myself up a grand adventure or an awesome experience, and then not really be present while i'm there, and be looking around for more. i also really love having things to look forward to. i'm constantly placing little carrots in front of myself to keep myself moving forward. and it totally works!

I agree
 

valaki

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Let's face it, I'm a 7, I'm a 7w8, I'm a 7w8 Sx/So - and I've got a SERIOUS wild side - and so all that has been allowed to express itself at this point in my life, and I've recognized those things as MY NATURE, but evolved far past the point where I ever thought they were my PURPOSE or my DESTINY. I'm totally at peace with my nature; I love it in fact - it's part of what makes me who I am, but I'll not let it control me - or cause harm to those I love. Maturity and experience allows all that you are to find their place within you, to be at peace, and allow you to live your life in comfort and success.

I see. Do you place yourself on a specific level for type health levels?


Don't get me wrong, I am not without anxiousness, but I simply can't express when it affects me in a pattern of some kind related to my levels of activity, or thoughts about each day. If it comes to me later I'll reply as such, but I'm simply drawing a blank on this right now.

Alright. Do let me know if it does. :)


(2) I read the E7, E8, and E6 type descriptions at great length and in detail and realized that E7 was the decription that fit me best of all, however I also recognized I had a good dash of E8 in me.

Yeah, but how did E7 fit you the best? I would be glad to hear specifics. Was it anything about gluttony? Or something else?


(4) Also, in the spirit of full disclosure, I was born with a "7w8 Sx/So" tattoo on my ass. Just kidding. :rotfl:

Yeah that way it's easy to type yourself :D


(5) On a more serious note, my Dad is an ESTJ 8w7 - and I'm alot like him, but very much so my own person.

So what are the main differences between you two?


Then I said:
"10-4"

:happy:

Yeah I know what you said it to, I just can't interpret what the numbers refer to :eek:


Here's the Type 7 description from the Enneagram Institute's page. The reason I like it as a generic frame of reference for 7s is that it points out a wide variety of the predispositions 7s are typically noted to have - both one's most expect, but also those that are just as relevant but that don't stick out in most people's minds when they think of 7s becasue they don't fit the "E7 Wild Child" stereotype.

In the description below I bolded the words/traits that are indeed those of 7s, but that I think are overlooked more often than not considering the reputation 7s typically have for being gregarious fun-loving people.

Thanks that's good stuff.

I relate to the bolded much more than the un-bolded, heh. Almost like you cherry picked the ones that describe me. (Though you left out a few negatives: impatience, going by impulses, needing more discipline)


And when reading the bolded words below, please consider this summary of them: To be a person with any degree of freedom, have the ability to acquire things, to engage in a variety of experiences, and to focus one's talents on worthwhile goals most often necessitates being gainfully employed. Being gainfully employed requires consistently exhibiting responsibility of one or more varieties and applying one's talents to profitable undertakings. These are not typically the accomplishments of scatterred, frustrated party animals. Although 7s who are gainfully employed have in many ways the "fuel supply" for them to recognize their heart's desires, they are better yet served when they INTEGRATE their NEEDS with their OBLIGATIONS. My career is very challenging, I am busy to a terrifying degree by most people's standards, BUT over the years I have found a way to apply my skills to ENDEAVORS of PURPOSE and to use them during my work in ways that are FUN.

Nice summary. You mention ADHD as well. So you basically had to learn to focus better? Do you originally relate to scatteredness, did you just manage to get a better focus over time?


"To me, FUN is a MINDSET. I have fun doing almost anything each and every day. When I go shopping for groceries - I have fun. When I mow my yard and do landscaping each weekend - I have fun. When I am at the office working with 20 different people under a tight deadline - I have fun. I do EVERYTHING in a way that is FUN to ME." :newwink:

How do you make grocery shopping or mowing the garden fun? Can you describe your method of achieving that? I hope this isn't an impossibly deep question (if you have never observed how you do this)


+1,000 - Perfectly stated.

So you say scatteredness is a defining feature of 7? It just doesn't have to be mental, can be physical experiences instead?


This is great. For years I was emotionally under-developed, and I attributed most of that to being an ESTP. Now that you point out the facet as such that is 7-related, it makes huge amounts of sense. In my case I had two emotional deficiencies, ESTP, and 7 - :doh:

How do you relate uncertainties with being emotionally under-developed? What do you mean by the latter?


Yes, absolutely. Control is an illusion, but we feel better when we identify objectives that will be satisfying to achieve, and then plot a course to accomplish them. This does not create control, it creates a sensation of "comfort."

Why do you call control an illusion? Can you elaborate?

Fighting (or going for the goal), I do not associate that with comfort, I associate it with feeling in control. How do you relate it to comfort?


The way I understand 7 in general is "more more more". It runs - quite literally - on the fear of deprivation. At its simplest origin it could be understood to be derived from the fear of hunger and thirst. e7 is the self-protection pattern which runs from "not having access to" and celebrates the self as expansiveness, variety, novelty, and spontaneity, mistaking the inability to acquire "more" as a restriction of self. The process of acquisition makes the 7 feel comforted, easing the fear of deprivation for just a moment. But it doesn't work, because the fear of deprivation is something that has to be settled from within, just like all of the enneatype fears - once the 7 realizes there are other things out there they might need access to, the drive to acquire comes rushing back. So e7 becomes the glutton, seeking to cure their inner panic through constant acquisition.

What is acquired could be anything outside the self - a new plan, a song, a theory, a feeling, food, drink, drugs. For many 7s it is experiences - skydiving, bungee jumping, world travel, and so on. It's why 7 and ExxP are so related, because it's all about being open to the external world, rushing towards it and pulling it into the self for fear that you might lose it all otherwise. 7s always are running ahead of themselves, thinking about the next thing to pull into themselves while still in the context of the last. That's part of why the acquisition always fails - because 7's fear drives them to push forward towards "more", they struggle to feel satisfaction with the current acquisition. Which is ironic, because what they are ultimately seeking is satisfaction with the current moment. But the more 7 pushes into the future, the less they have to think about their current satisfaction, so they can live in a state of always making their satisfaction contingent on the promise of the next thing, thus avoiding pain in real time.

Awesome summary, this too.

Would you say scatteredness belongs to core of 7 at least at the average health levels? I ask because you talk a lot about the variety aspect and about 7's running ahead of themselves.

What would happen if an average 7 allowed themselves to feel satisfaction with the current acquisition? How would it make them feel anxious about their inner world? I don't understand that one. I mean, if you immerse yourself in the current moment, in the experience in the moment, would that not keep you outwardly focused enough thus prevent the painful inner shit from coming out?

I guess what I strongly don't relate to here is avoiding pain by imagining or anticipating the next thing. Pain is pain and I will feel it regardless of whatever escapist thoughts I'd try to think of. What I've seen myself do though is make up a direction in which to go to fix my issues. And it was nice to imagine it. Putting it into practice is also a nice feeling of course. But even just managing to make the plan would be great so in that sense it's avoiding pain? Though these plans are always to do with fixing the whatever issue


I can relate to this "sin" through the feeling of when you visit a new country or town and you feel this strong craving to see everything within the time limit, and you feel a sense of great loss when you don't have time for that little historical museum or that lesser-known castle and to make yourself feel better you promise yourself that you are definitely coming back some time in this life to visit them all. It's a panicky energy that drives you to want everything just for the sake of having done it, so I think "gluttony" describes it pretty well.

Lol that honestly just sounds like a pain in the ass from my perspective. When I visit a new country I don't feel compelled to check out everything in this compulsive way. I guess this is just an example but I see what you mean and I don't have that panicky energy thingie... I've seen myself in that state rarely, and even then for maybe a couple of seconds, only seconds as it's not a good feeling mentally and it's not normal either.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] - your post is AWESOME.
Thanks! Seven is the first type I really "got into" and I'm always appalled by the misconceptions that exist.

Please write a book. Seriously! :hifive:
:D

I just might. There's a lot said about cognitive functions and a lot said about enneagram...and when people try to overlap it and correlate it, it just goes wrong. The field really needs someone to use the two systems to catch the bullshit that accretes around each, rather than just spin them off each other.

Agreed, my mind gets bent out of shape upon reading such things. :ack!:
Sadly, it confuses a lot of people. And folks who favor one system tend to look down on the other, with the end result that many beams get crossed and even otherwise credible authors appear not to understand their non-favored system.

I love the way you stated the above, and would like to put it in my footer, citing you of course.

:solidarity:
You're welcome to do so!
:)

I was planning on summoning you earlier, actually, but totally forgot your username. Glad you found this place on your own!
 

valaki

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So I have a problem immersing myself in an activity, experience, moment and truly enjoying it because my gaze and desire is far-sighted. This doesn't mean I'm not enjoying whatever I'm doing but the thought of "this is going to end, then what?" is always in the back of my head. I can feel upset or even frantic when things are winding down. I try to compensate by looking for very intense experiences so that I can feel "full" or even trying to push energy into things that I should just let die. I have gotten in over my head because of this.

Hmm I relate to the wish that things shouldn't end. Though it's not always visibly in the back of my head and I don't react too strongly when the experience is ending, though sure it's not great.


this has been true but it was hard to recognize it for what it was. I only figured this out when I read another description of 7s going through a time where something wonderful was painfully ripped away from them (I think elfboy posted this?). It spoke of having a tranquil childhood period and then that being ripped away from them, similar to what 4s experience but later...a kind of ejection from Paradise. I think the description said being a suckling babe and torn away from the breast. There is a determination that this never, ever happens again.

Did you have this experience as a kid? Do you remember it?


My sister is Se-dom 7w6 (ESFP). She is materialistic and immerses herself in physical, material pleasures. Her way is this kind of moment-to-moment, rung-to-rung movement from experience to experience. It's smoother and she seems much more open and present to whatever she's doing. I think she enjoys anticipation but seems to derive less pleasure from this than I do and doesn't seem to suffer from as much feeling let down if things don't play out like she imagined they should be. I'm much more likely to be pretty upset from things not playing out like they did in my imagination. She'd be quicker to find something else to do or affect the situation to make it more pleasing to her. I guess this ability to impact what's going on right now? Not sure how to describe it. I really, really envy that about her.

Yeah see, a lot of the typical 7-ness is just Ne's version of 7... interesting, that. How did you type your sister as 7?
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I kind of think of it being more as "craving" than gluttony. I say that because I experience pleasure from anticipation. Well, as long as I'm sure that I'm going to actually get what I want. I could be simple things such as having a glass on wine later, plans I may have made for the weekend, or a treat that I have hoarded to enjoy by myself. Sometimes the anticipation can be more pleasurable than the act and I may not get much enjoyment from the act because of this. I feel anxious and pretty unhappy when I don't have something to look forward to because my mind can become occupied with that...instead of less pleasant things.
This is a good description.

I myself experience what I've bolded. There are times when I will specifically NOT do things simply because anticipating it in the future is more fun than actually starting on it. And yeah, it can be minor things, such as eating a box of cookies. It doesn't have to partying 24/7.

The bolded means they want variety yeah? I don't always... Only case I want a sort of variety is when I want many of the same kind of thing. Generally I have an inclination to just get deeper into the same thing, repeat it and so on, intensity is nice including intensity of focus.
This speaks more to "lust" than to "gluttony".

This one was at ocean moonshine btw :) I'll quote it: "In the traditional Enneagram, the passion of type Eight is said to be “lust.” This should not be confused with the insistent desire to enjoy the pleasures of the senses, sexual or otherwise, which is more characteristic of the gluttony of type Seven. The lust of type Eight has an expansive quality to it – rather than the need to “take in,” the lust of type Eight manifests in the need to push outwards- to assert the self in order to attain the objects of desire."

Hmm also, entitlement, it's mentioned for 7 by Naranjo (and elsewhere), what does that exactly mean, assuming 8 doesn't have it?
For 7s, they can feel "entitled" to things because they were born "brilliant"--multitalented and smarter than most other people. They bank on that, and at unhealthier levels, this can reach incredibly crappy proportions bordering on narcissism in which the 7 is constantly comparing him/herself to others and having to feel like s/he has to (and does) come out "better" than everyone.

So the entitlement is based on this sense.

I think 8s can be entitled, too, but it's less obvious as they view life as struggle and are willing to get down and dirty more easily than a core 7. Whatever entitlement they have is less likely to be based on their own mental brilliance.

I'm not sure how opposite preferences come up here? That's Si to Se in my case.
Ah, well you mentioned that thing about grandiose fantasies and how that might make you feel literally unwell because your mind doesn't focus that way. I thought that might be cognitive rather than a core 7 vs core 8 concern.

Can you explain more about this uncertainty in the inner world? I didn't understand that. Well in general I'm not sure I understand what the 7's mind is like when not occupied. What exactly is so terrible about boredom? Any 7's here who can describe that? :)
I'm not a core 7, so it's difficult. I'll leave that to [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] whose posts on this topic have been completely excellent.

Right, though sometimes one has to wonder when the two seem to overlap so completely. In some cases.
I think there are probably correlations. But, Etypes also show up using cognitive functions you might not expect.

The way Jung describes Te-doms for instance correlates almost identically with type 1. Yet there are also Te-dom 3s, 6s, and 8s, and these types make that work for them. It's possible that descriptions of cognitive functions have also been biased by the type that most frequently uses is.
 

valaki

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There are times when I will specifically NOT do things simply because anticipating it in the future is more fun than actually starting on it.

Happened to me too, that I imagined it'll be great doing something (note, this is never simply an experience, but some project to get done, goal related things), and I didn't start on it for a while because... oh no idea why :p

The imagination part would last a few seconds for these cases.


This speaks more to "lust" than to "gluttony".

Ah, okay. Btw, I can do this both in a physical sense and in a mental sense. Physical: doing stuff, getting stuff, or just enjoying whatever, feeling very satisfied too in the process and/or as a result. Mental aspect: deeply analysing a topic that interests me, I can get enjoyment out of that too, it's different than physical things of course, but the point of it is still focus, intenseness etc. What's that, then?


For 7s, they can feel "entitled" to things because they were born "brilliant"--multitalented and smarter than most other people. They bank on that, and at unhealthier levels, this can reach incredibly crappy proportions bordering on narcissism in which the 7 is constantly comparing him/herself to others and having to feel like s/he has to (and does) come out "better" than everyone.

So the entitlement is based on this sense.

I think 8s can be entitled, too, but it's less obvious as they view life as struggle and are willing to get down and dirty more easily than a core 7. Whatever entitlement they have is less likely to be based on their own mental brilliance.

Oh if entitlement means justifying why I should have something, then no I don't do this at all. I simply don't justify it :) Do 7's need to justify?

I do think of myself as smarter than most but that's based on objective criteria. It does give me confidence. Otoh my strong will also has me confident and I think I focus on this aspect more, though I wouldn't know if this is type related.

What I didn't understand here is how the topic of struggle and getting down&dirty is related, in terms of making entitlement less obvious. Explain a bit more ??

Another q; when the narcissist 7 compares themselves to others, do they just try to see themselves better than others in imagination? Or do they get actively competitive or something? Doesn't make a lot of sense atm


Ah, well you mentioned that thing about grandiose fantasies and how that might make you feel literally unwell because your mind doesn't focus that way. I thought that might be cognitive rather than a core 7 vs core 8 concern.

Oh yeah, it might be Se because that sort of stuff belongs to daydreaming as far as I'm concerned and yeah I don't do daydreaming as it just takes focus away from what I like to focus on, stuff that's real.


I'm not a core 7, so it's difficult. I'll leave that to [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] whose posts on this topic have been completely excellent.

OK no problem I'll wait for his explanation :p


It's possible that descriptions of cognitive functions have also been biased by the type that most frequently uses is.

That's a good point.
 

skylights

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So I have a problem immersing myself in an activity, experience, moment and truly enjoying it because my gaze and desire is far-sighted. This doesn't mean I'm not enjoying whatever I'm doing but the thought of "this is going to end, then what?" is always in the back of my head. I can feel upset or even frantic when things are winding down. I try to compensate by looking for very intense experiences so that I can feel "full" or even trying to push energy into things that I should just let die. I have gotten in over my head because of this.

Really interesting, Redbone. I often feel an upsetness and "hollowness" at the end of a very engaging experience. I first realized how powerful the feeling was when I'd get into my car after parties or when leaving home or school and just crying because I felt so empty. I don't share the frantic feelings - I guess e6 slows my tempo down enough - and I don't think I try to compensate with intensity for the most part, but (and I don't know if this is so/sx related) I do feel so much better about things when I have the next thing in line or if I am with someone. Like it'll be so much easier for me to go home if I know I'm going to see the people in class the next day. I love going to parties with my boyfriend now because we go, it's big and exciting and stimulating, and we can leave and it's comforting but there's no "bottom falling out" feeling like there used to be because I'm going home with him and I have a companion to engage with and someone to curl up with at night. So the enjoyment never really ends, it just changes.

@skylights , this has been true but it was hard to recognize it for what it was. I only figured this out when I read another description of 7s going through a time where something wonderful was painfully ripped away from them (I think elfboy posted this?). It spoke of having a tranquil childhood period and then that being ripped away from them, similar to what 4s experience but later...a kind of ejection from Paradise. I think the description said being a suckling babe and torn away from the breast. There is a determination that this never, ever happens again.

How sad :( :hug:

Awesome summary, this too.

Thank you valaki :)

Would you say scatteredness belongs to core of 7 at least at the average health levels? I ask because you talk a lot about the variety aspect and about 7's running ahead of themselves.

Yes, definitely. I think it can be a strength when wielded with awareness. It's a very expansive and varied energy. Always pushing further, going beyond boundaries, constantly recombining, riding on the crest of the wave.

What would happen if an average 7 allowed themselves to feel satisfaction with the current acquisition? How would it make them feel anxious about their inner world? I don't understand that one. I mean, if you immerse yourself in the current moment, in the experience in the moment, would that not keep you outwardly focused enough thus prevent the painful inner shit from coming out?

Ah. I was probably being confusing by using internal and external, perhaps a better distinction would be "future" and "present". Immersing in the present moment requires being in touch with one's present self, as well - exactly what one is at the moment. The 7 has to stop running away into the future world and come to terms with the present world. It's hard for the 7 to trust that because they see limitations in the present world and fear them, while the future has no limitations. The 7 who starts focusing on the present might at first feel panic because of the perceived lack of possibility, but will eventually begin to understand that the only thing that really ever has existed is the present.

But I do think this will be different for a Se dom than Ne dom, as others have been saying. My description is probably unintentionally biased towards Ne-7. I think of my ESTP 7w8 sx/so friend and I think she sort of lives her version of this process by creating huge fun explosions of activity wherever she goes. She's always gearing everyone up for the next big thing, getting everyone more drunk, getting people to agree to do more things with her, pulling more people in on her adventures. In college if the party wound down or if I went to class she'd go find someone else to party with or she'd go do a killer workout at the gym or she'd go on a 7 mile run or she'd watch TV with her whole suite of neighbors. It was always go-go-go with her, very grounded and tangible but always about constant movement, never stopping.

I guess what I strongly don't relate to here is avoiding pain by imagining or anticipating the next thing. Pain is pain and I will feel it regardless of whatever escapist thoughts I'd try to think of. What I've seen myself do though is make up a direction in which to go to fix my issues. And it was nice to imagine it. Putting it into practice is also a nice feeling of course. But even just managing to make the plan would be great so in that sense it's avoiding pain? Though these plans are always to do with fixing the whatever issue

Well, I think that would sort of depend on how you go about planning. As a Ne-dom w7, I totally "spin my wheels" in planning sometimes. The plan becomes enjoyable because it's all about this ideal version of the future where everything is possible, and while I'm lost in the plan I don't think about the present mess or how difficult things may actually be. An example - I just started post-bac classes at a new university, and I missed the spring registration deadline last semester because I didn't realize how soon it would be (my old university's registration dates were much later in the semester). I tried not to think about the reality of it and constructed a plan to get myself into the classes I wanted, speaking to people, pulling strings, filling out forms, etc. Lots of forward movement but not really addressing the core of me needing to be better about learning the university's calendar and policies. And that's a sort of 7 thing to do. Push-push-push and skate over the top of things. Ignore the festering reality while dreaming about a brighter future. Distract yourself with more fun things so you don't have to deal with how you might be boxed in (that strikes me as particularly 6/7-7/6 whereas 7/8-8/7 would probably be more about breaking the boxes). Hopefully that's a pretty decent example. Again, I might be 6-biased, but I think that's a fairly true one.

Lol that honestly just sounds like a pain in the ass from my perspective. When I visit a new country I don't feel compelled to check out everything in this compulsive way. I guess this is just an example but I see what you mean and I don't have that panicky energy thingie... I've seen myself in that state rarely, and even then for maybe a couple of seconds, only seconds as it's not a good feeling mentally and it's not normal either.

I get it. It's not really a pain for me, just a little sad knowing you won't get to see everything, at least not in this lifetime (note w7 coping mechanism of "never say never")

Ya know, it makes me think of The Lion King.

The Circle of Life said:
From the day we arrive on the planet
And blinking, step into the sun
There is more to be seen
Than can ever be seen;
More to do
Than can ever be done.

There's far too much
To take in here,
More to find
Than can ever be found

But the sun rolling high
Through the sapphire sky
Keeps great and small
On the endless round...
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Ah, okay. Btw, I can do this both in a physical sense and in a mental sense. Physical: doing stuff, getting stuff, or just enjoying whatever, feeling very satisfied too in the process and/or as a result. Mental aspect: deeply analysing a topic that interests me, I can get enjoyment out of that too, it's different than physical things of course, but the point of it is still focus, intenseness etc. What's that, then?
Sounds like a reasonably intelligent 8w7 in my own opinion.

Oh if entitlement means justifying why I should have something, then no I don't do this at all. I simply don't justify it :) Do 7's need to justify?
They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves.

I do think of myself as smarter than most but that's based on objective criteria. It does give me confidence. Otoh my strong will also has me confident and I think I focus on this aspect more, though I wouldn't know if this is type related.
Does more of your ego rest on your sense of "smartness" or "willpower"? I think that'll be the difference between 7 and 8. Sevens are a mental type and primarily focus on that aspect. Eights are a body type and their sense of confidence is more about will and/or physicality.

What I didn't understand here is how the topic of struggle and getting down&dirty is related, in terms of making entitlement less obvious. Explain a bit more ??
I mean 8s will put up an all out struggle, and 7s often move onto something else rather than get down and dirty. They're more inclined to see discomfort and difficulty as being indicative of a problem, rather than something to be surmounted.

Another q; when the narcissist 7 compares themselves to others, do they just try to see themselves better than others in imagination? Or do they get actively competitive or something? Doesn't make a lot of sense atm
I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly.

I think they could be competitive, but more likely they'd just move on to something they are better at if they come up feeling short in comparison to others.
 

valaki

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Really interesting, Redbone. I often feel an upsetness and "hollowness" at the end of a very engaging experience. I first realized how powerful the feeling was when I'd get into my car after parties or when leaving home or school and just crying because I felt so empty. I don't share the frantic feelings

Hey. I do have something like that after getting home from outside. It feels like it's all suddenly a lower energy. Not that I'd start crying or anything, just a somewhat uncomfortable switch from higher energy level to lower one...


I don't think I try to compensate with intensity for the most part, but (and I don't know if this is so/sx related) I do feel so much better about things when I have the next thing in line or if I am with someone. Like it'll be so much easier for me to go home if I know I'm going to see the people in class the next day. I love going to parties with my boyfriend now because we go, it's big and exciting and stimulating, and we can leave and it's comforting but there's no "bottom falling out" feeling like there used to be because I'm going home with him and I have a companion to engage with and someone to curl up with at night. So the enjoyment never really ends, it just changes.

Thanks that's a nice description again. I still don't relate to looking forward to the future in this way. Mine's so much more general/vague, it's just the sense that the future shouldn't be bad. Nothing more concrete for me and it's not even conscious often. But this is pretty important to me, this is my sense of optimism. Doesn't mean I always have it :( But when I rebound from shit, I do regain this way of looking at the future and that's good. That's my default.

I relate to the last line though (bolded), I mean I like it if life is like that. Though what's meant by enjoyment is maybe different for you than for me :p


Yes, definitely. I think it can be a strength when wielded with awareness. It's a very expansive and varied energy. Always pushing further, going beyond boundaries, constantly recombining, riding on the crest of the wave.

Ooh I like "pushing further", "going beyond boundaries", but I don't relate to the recombining / varied etc adjectives :) Guess this helps again to understand 7 more, thanks.


Ah. I was probably being confusing by using internal and external, perhaps a better distinction would be "future" and "present". Immersing in the present moment requires being in touch with one's present self, as well - exactly what one is at the moment. The 7 has to stop running away into the future world and come to terms with the present world. It's hard for the 7 to trust that because they see limitations in the present world and fear them, while the future has no limitations. The 7 who starts focusing on the present might at first feel panic because of the perceived lack of possibility, but will eventually begin to understand that the only thing that really ever has existed is the present.

Well I don't truly understand this one... Being in the present moment in my case doesn't require being in touch with myself inside or whatever. No, it's something completely unrelated to me. That to me sounds like you're talking about some sort of self-awareness but it really isn't needed to live in the moment. Maybe you are bringing some Fi into this where it doesn't need to be. I don't really have Fi :)

I get what you mean about the future having no limitations but this must be a Ne thing again because trust me I couldn't care less about the future having no limitations. Future is unreal, future is not here, I don't have the future with me. I only have the present and I always thought this way. The present may have limitations but how I solve that issue is by trying to overcome them. E.g. what Redbone said about that ESFP sister, affecting the situation. Also when I'm content/satisfied in the moment I don't worry about the limitations of the present. Oh I guess this is the most un-7-ish thing I've said so far :) Though that's only when I'm content and I'm not always content. So that then is the 7 in me, I guess.


But I do think this will be different for a Se dom than Ne dom, as others have been saying. My description is probably unintentionally biased towards Ne-7. I think of my ESTP 7w8 sx/so friend and I think she sort of lives her version of this process by creating huge fun explosions of activity wherever she goes. She's always gearing everyone up for the next big thing, getting everyone more drunk, getting people to agree to do more things with her, pulling more people in on her adventures. In college if the party wound down or if I went to class she'd go find someone else to party with or she'd go do a killer workout at the gym or she'd go on a 7 mile run or she'd watch TV with her whole suite of neighbors. It was always go-go-go with her, very grounded and tangible but always about constant movement, never stopping.

I see. Oh I so don't relate to this, this is one of the reasons why I have a hard time with the ESxP stereotype. I may be Se-dom but the above description is not me. Sure, sometimes I can get like this but I can't say I'm like this with "never stopping".


Well, I think that would sort of depend on how you go about planning. As a Ne-dom w7, I totally "spin my wheels" in planning sometimes. The plan becomes enjoyable because it's all about this ideal version of the future where everything is possible, and while I'm lost in the plan I don't think about the present mess or how difficult things may actually be. An example - I just started post-bac classes at a new university, and I missed the spring registration deadline last semester because I didn't realize how soon it would be (my old university's registration dates were much later in the semester). I tried not to think about the reality of it and constructed a plan to get myself into the classes I wanted, speaking to people, pulling strings, filling out forms, etc. Lots of forward movement but not really addressing the core of me needing to be better about learning the university's calendar and policies. And that's a sort of 7 thing to do. Push-push-push and skate over the top of things. Ignore the festering reality while dreaming about a brighter future. Distract yourself with more fun things so you don't have to deal with how you might be boxed in (that strikes me as particularly 6/7-7/6 whereas 7/8-8/7 would probably be more about breaking the boxes). Hopefully that's a pretty decent example. Again, I might be 6-biased, but I think that's a fairly true one.

The university example, hmm, did you actually manage to get into the classes as a result of executing your plan?

When planning bigger stuff - actual goals - I do realise that it isn't easy stuff but that is what makes the planning more enjoyable.

Do you ever temporarily focus on the "festering reality"? Emotional issues/pain?


I get it. It's not really a pain for me, just a little sad knowing you won't get to see everything, at least not in this lifetime (note w7 coping mechanism of "never say never")

That's okay as long as you enjoy and really immerse in what you're actually doing.

...I've always been good at that but as far as I understand this state is just what the 7 needs to reach?


Sounds like a reasonably intelligent 8w7 in my own opinion.

I thought it was also some line/connection to 5.


They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves.

To be honest, the question never occurred to me, that is, whether I deserve the stuff I want etc. (EDIT: I will talk more about this entitlement topic below)

If I tried to think about that, it would be pretty bad, I think. It would definitely kill my "ego", I'm just not ready for that.

See I'm being honest here :)

I read once that 7's are the most shameless and guiltless type... I kind of relate to that. But only 50/50, I'm capable of feeling/caring about certain responsibilities. This however doesn't exclude the "entitlement" thingie for me...


Does more of your ego rest on your sense of "smartness" or "willpower"? I think that'll be the difference between 7 and 8. Sevens are a mental type and primarily focus on that aspect. Eights are a body type and their sense of confidence is more about will and/or physicality.

Quite honestly... Smartness is a tool. So I would say the latter. That is, my confidence comes from willpower.

I would still add that I can appreciate intellectual things for their own sake, then it's not just a tool. But willpower has an element even there in most cases, in terms of mental challenges.

Uhm and Se 7's, are they mental types? Or Ne 8's, are they more body than mind? Not nitpicking, this just doesn't make total sense to me.


I mean 8s will put up an all out struggle, and 7s often move onto something else rather than get down and dirty. They're more inclined to see discomfort and difficulty as being indicative of a problem, rather than something to be surmounted.

So do you mean, a sense of entitlement would involve not putting up the struggle and instead just expecting the thing to be had easily because it's deserved? When I said I don't question that I "deserve" things, it's about how I don't question that I want whatever, even if it means others don't get it. I think that was defined as sadism in Naranjo's book :eek: I really don't want to call it this way because the concept of sadism to me involves being fully aware of and willingly causing pain for the sake of causing pain and that's something else. In the context of "deserving" of things it's at best objectification.

I would like to understand however how the 7's entitlement is different from that.... any thoughts?


I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly.

I do like to feel "better" than others in a sense. This is a pretty generic word though... Talent is good, sure, but just learning the basics isn't a big thing to me.


I think they could be competitive, but more likely they'd just move on to something they are better at if they come up feeling short in comparison to others.

Ok well I don't relate to this kind of escapism
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
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Uhm and Se 7's, are they mental types? Or Ne 8's, are they more body than mind? Not nitpicking, this just doesn't make total sense to me.
Sevens are inherently mental types since they're in the head center. I cannot attest as to how an Se-dom 7 perceives this... [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], what would you say?

I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)

I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.

So do you mean, a sense of entitlement would involve not putting up the struggle and instead just expecting the thing to be had easily because it's deserved? When I said I don't question that I "deserve" things, it's about how I don't question that I want whatever, even if it means others don't get it. I think that was defined as sadism in Naranjo's book :eek: I really don't want to call it this way because the concept of sadism to me involves being fully aware of and willingly causing pain for the sake of causing pain and that's something else. In the context of "deserving" of things it's at best objectification.

I would like to understand however how the 7's entitlement is different from that.... any thoughts?
I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).

My two cents.
 

Halla74

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Thinking about this a little more...

...it's like eating cotton candy. It's pretty much gone as soon as it melts in the mouth which makes me want to stuff more in mouth to compensate. That kind of gluttony.

Upon reading this again I love it as an example. :popc1:

It's a bad thing, I know. As a 7, I need to grow and appreciate/feel gratitude for the now/present instead of instead of engaging in this intense mental masturbation by focusing on the next thing I want to consume. I was lying in the dark thinking about this a few weeks ago and was really horrified when I realized this. I felt really bad and realized that I had ruined something good by focusing on the distress that it would be over soon and being upset that I didn't have anything else to "eat".

I became aware of this tendency in myself MANY years ago, as in a decade ago, because my BODY was finally having ISSUES (and I mean worked like a dog of my own will and accord for years straight on all that I wanted to do all the time) KEEPING UP WITH THE DESIRES OF MY MIND and my HEART. So, me being pragmatic I recognized the delta between the two as it never been before, accepted it, and quickly learned to shuffle my deck of things to do, work smarter and not harder, and get much better at creating and maintaining EQUILIBRIUM.

My sister is Se-dom 7w6 (ESFP). She is materialistic and immerses herself in physical, material pleasures. Her way is this kind of moment-to-moment, rung-to-rung movement from experience to experience[/color]. It's smoother and she seems much more open and present to whatever she's doing. I think she enjoys anticipation but seems to derive less pleasure from this than I do and doesn't seem to suffer from as much feeling let down if things don't play out like she imagined they should be.


Very interesting! :happy:

I'm much more likely to be pretty upset from things not playing out like they did in my imagination.

THIS is the part that is different from my experience. And for the sake of others reading this reply, there is a HUGE amount of respect and comraderie and kinship between Redbone and I, and so I am able to point this difference in perception out for what it is, and it's exactly that - a difference in perception, there is no no right or wrong - or which is better or worse than the other. I'm 100% sure that is understood between us, but wanted to obviate it for for the sake of readers that might construe reading a difference of opinion/observed life experiecne thus far as a conflict. But aside from my implementation being different, again, I must agree, the underlying premise is very similar - it is the implementation that differs.

She'd be quicker to find something else to do or affect the situation to make it more pleasing to her. I guess this ability to impact what's going on right now? Not sure how to describe it. I really, really envy that about her. [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] does that sound about right to you as an Se-dom?

Your typical Sensor will approach any simplistic endeavor of enjoyment from the perspective of "If A, B, or C happen I am totally good" and approach the experience with their favored outcome, and adjust accordingly to accomodate things outside their locus of control. This is an adaptive skill, but there is a certain amount of overhead that goes along with real-time agenda setting as such, that in time, you realize that if it really is just chill time, the best option is to preserve ALL of your energey, and just roll with your surroundings, and enjoy it for what it is...

Yes, you summarized my feelings similar to the above when I was younger. The "looking forward to" part of anticipation was fine with me when I focused on it; I never felt the "let down side" of anticipation for long if at all, because AWSM options, B, C, and D were already in the pot and stirring. I'm so bad. :whistling:

Hmm I relate to the wish that things shouldn't end. Though it's not always visibly in the back of my head and I don't react too strongly when the experience is ending, though sure it's not great.

All things must come to an end. :yes: Don't let it get to you. Cherish it for what it was and look forward to new and AWSM experiences. :hifive:
Honestly, it sounds like you and I are more on the same page than not on this particular aspect of this conversation.

i definitely fill my 7-void with information as well as experiences. i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it.

THIS! The bolded above! Preach it, Sister!!! :rock:

i do like "things" like little odd trinkety things or beautiful things or meaningful things. i have kind of a cluttery life as a result. i read that 7w6 is drawn to things like that. that also sounds like it might be sp peeking out, but that's just a guess :shrug:

That's not just 7w6, your 7w8 brethren experience this too. :yes: I was very much so inclined when younger. Now, I realize that the daily/on-going maintenance of these things is taking away from my ability to maximally enjoy the present, and for a few years now I have thus de-materialized. It feels REALLY GOOD - the local Goodwill and CHKD Stores by my house freaking love me! :laugh: Does this mean that I am cured of the impulsive propensity to go out and buy something I think if just dandy as hell when the whim occurs? NO. However, my rule of thumb now to keeo peace in my life and marriage, and to remain among the living of this planet - is to ensure that any such urges of mine are few and far between, and that they never cost more than a typical trip to the grocery store. :rules: :azdaja: :laugh: :newwink:

in this way, i'm not relating to that anticipation as much as some other people on here. i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged. i DO feel that way, though, with life plans.

Oh Yeah! :hifive: I am CURIOUS and WANT TO LEARN about EVERYTHING. :nerd: :rock:
You stated that perfectly - I dig it. :cool:

i have a tendency to dream myself up a grand adventure or an awesome experience, and then not really be present while i'm there, and be looking around for more. i also really love having things to look forward to. i'm constantly placing little carrots in front of myself to keep myself moving forward. and it totally works!

I am ALWAYS thinking - and I love it. :cheese:
My "carrots" are pre-determined too, but only identified from time to to time.
The same methodology applies, just different timing methinks.
What thinketh thou?! :holy:

They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves.

Very simply and truthfully put, YES.

Does more of your ego rest on your sense of "smartness" or "willpower"? I think that'll be the difference between 7 and 8. Sevens are a mental type and primarily focus on that aspect. Eights are a body type and their sense of confidence is more about will and/or physicality.

I am so glad that you laid this out as bluntly as you did - seriously. :solidarity:
Yes, There is a huge amount of natural comfort/and - or ego in 7s as a result of being so versatile - and thus "smart centric".
However, in my particular case of 7w8 weirdness I too have a HUGE core confidence in my WILL and my PHYSICALITY.

My Father taught me this when I was very young:

"Alex, there will be times in life when things need to be done that are not within the boundaries of comfort of most people - but these things must be accomplished. Who will accomplish them? Who will further the greater good? I tell you this:

There are 3 types of people in this world:
(1) Those who CAN DO what needs to be done - BUT DON'T HAVE THE WILL to do so.
(2) Those who HAVE THE WILL TO DO what needs to be done, but CANNOT DO IT.
(3) Those who CAN DO WHAT NEEDS to be DONE, - AND - HAVE the WILL TO DO SO at the time it needs to be done.

Which of these three types of people do you wish to become, Alexander? 1, 2, or 3?"


It was at that point in my life that I committed to being as smart, strong, and confident as possible - for if I developed these aspects of my nature, and of my body - then it would by default maximize my ability to succeed at whatever opportunities came my way, or that I created for myself.

I think there is alot of value in both the 7 and 8 mindsets, For me, I am very thankful to have a blended implementation of them that recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of each.

To the degree that thinking through things (quickly) is a 7 trait, I identify with that strongly. I've found that when I've had an idea to solve a problem that is common to more than just me and my group of people, if I pitch it before anyone else pitches their problem, and if my solution not only solves the problem, but addresses the needs of each of the participant groups whose efforts are required to solve it, there is very little resistance - and a natural ascension to a leadership position usually occurs. Of course, with any leadership role one assumes equal amounts of RESPONSIBILITY and AUTHORITY. As a 7, I default on fostering collaboration and consensus - and only resort to use of any type of rigid/authoritarian decision-making when I feel that the whim of others in the air is by all accounts not at all the best use of time and resources, and creates more potential risk than forward progress. And even then, I don't see the point in putting my foot down just to put my foot down. Why alienate a member of your team? Even if you meet with them in private to discuss differences of opinion, and then agree to disagree at the end of the conversation, holding the trump card in your back pocket - you will rarely have created an enemy, or needless resentment - for you gave your counterpart an opportunity to be heard, and for them to hear your position before any final ruling was made. Again, these are examples from my own life experience. I am a person of unification amongst people, not division. Would I drop the hammer on someone who was not playing fair, or being reasonable, or who was putting the efforts of the endeavor as a whole at risk? Yes. Absolutely, without hesitation if I felt it was needed. BUT - in the same token, I would not take away their dignity. There is no need for that.

I mean 8s will put up an all out struggle, and 7s often move onto something else rather than get down and dirty. They're more inclined to see discomfort and difficulty as being indicative of a problem, rather than something to be surmounted.

In general yes, but depending on waht is at stake - we're all in - and then some. That's a hugely personal matter though, and for sure an exceptional defined by each person at the most individual level, but I felt compelled to point it out. :hifive:

I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly.

Yes, once we recognize our natural strengths we will capitalize on opportunities to use them in liew of pursuing similar endeavors that require us to master things not of our parlance.
A question though? Is this truly an E7 only phenomena? Or is this more human nature - that is simply more frequently exhibited by 7s than others? Really just curious. :thinking:

Sevens are inherently mental types since they're in the head center. I cannot attest as to how an Se-dom 7 perceives this... [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], what would you say?

We are still in the head center, my friend. It is simply what we focus on, and how we get to the end result/decision of our next set of actions that varies between Se and Ne. I can't state your words better - so I will state them again. :)

An example from my life. My very good friend, Josh, is an ENTP 8w7. We are both IT professionals, we are both system analysts, we have both managed projects. In a previous job of mine, he was staffed to a department whose core interests were not in alignment with the interests of the agency as a whole. I was in the Chief of Staff's Office, and designed a new information system from the AGENCY perspective. We became aware of this conflict shortly after his onboarding. Neither of us could "officially pull rank on the other" - which we were fine with, because we didn't need to. We sat down on our own time and mapped the whole program out, the system that had to support it, and the political differences between the "tribes" who had to make it all work. Guess what? :huh: We figured out a way to let the dialog between the departments ensue, and allow all who needed to be heard to state their case, and document our findings, and then go back into our techie dungeon, and craft a solution that met EVERYONE'S NEEDS - as well as the NEEDS of the PROGRAM as a WHOLE.

How much changed from my initial design? Hardly anything. We moved a few things around, but the content and function were the same - just a slightly different layout. The more important thing was that we let all who had to live with it state their needs, state their differences, and ask them if they all got a system that accomplished "A, B, C, D, and E" if they would all pitch in and make it work, and be able to be happy in living with it and using it. THAT is what made all the difference in the world.

My point? As an ESTP 7w8 Sx/So, I could have come up with a solution that worked for all, and talked them all into it being what they needed it to be, and cashed my check and went home. However, my ENTP 8w7 sx/so friend showed me the art of letting them all be heard, entertaining their ideas as new possibilities, re-arranging the existing product in ways that did make the end-users much more happy, but that DID NOT compromise my core data model, system logic, workflow, or to any large degree scurity schema and graphical user interface. BUT - what he did give them was the ability to be HEARD and for their IDEAS to be CONSIDERED and VALIDATED before allowing the design of the system to be blessed by all, with a pledge by all to not impeded its effectiveness post implementation.

Neither Se of NE is SUPERIOR; they both have ALOT to OFFER. It is my opinion, that together they have far much to offer than either alone. As individuals however, we cannot choose to be masters of both cognitive funtions - but we can recognize our strengths and our weaknesses, and allow both to be balanced with the capabilities of those who can benefit from our competencies, and benefit us with theirs.

I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)

That's very interesting. My INFJ 1w9 sp/sx wife tells me the same!

I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.

That makes sense.

I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).

+1

My two cents.

...are worth a pound of gold.

:solidarity:

-Halla74
 
Last edited:

valaki

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I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)

Sp-last, N-dom (=weak S), whatnot... :) Though I do relate to the wish of not having to feed my body, it could just go on infinitely without feeding it, wow would be good haha :)

I was also last kid picked, in middle school, but for a different reason.


I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.

You've got a very special brain :) (I like to think of myself as having a special brain too)


I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).

OK, I see :)

Innocent hmm heh why would use that word? :p


Your typical Sensor will approach any simplistic endeavor of enjoyment from the perspective of "If A, B, or C happen I am totally good" and approach the experience with their favored outcome, and adjust accordingly to accomodate things outside their locus ofcontrol. This is an adaptive skill, but there is a certain amount of overhead that goes along with real-time agenda setting as such, that in time, you realize that if it really is just chill time, the best option is to preserve ALL of your energey, and just roll with your surroundings, and enjoy it for what it is...

Yes, you summarized my feelings similar to the above when I was younger. The "looking forward to" part of anticipation was fine with me when I focused on it; I never felt the "let down side" of anticipation for long if at all, because AWSM options, B, C, and D were already in the pot and stirring. I'm so bad. :whistling:

Hey thanks for that description, I think it allows really good insights into what Se combined with 7 is like. :) I'm not at all like this, I'll just get pissed off if the whatever outcome isn't what I wanted and I'll keep focusing on it. Thanks again, it really makes sense the way you put it.

Btw it doesn't mean that I can't be adaptive, I can, but I still don't keep options B, C, D in my head to do so. If I have to suck it up*, then I just do, accept whatever "as is". And then go on with my life. So in that sense I'm adaptive.

*: depends... sometimes the thing isn't so important so it's like that right away and then sometimes it's important and that's when I get pissed off etc


All things must come to an end. :yes: Don't let it get to you. Cherish it for what it was and look forward to new and AWSM experiences. :hifive:
Honestly, it sounds like you and I are more on the same page than not on this particular aspect of this conversation.

Did you feel before that we were never on the same page? You mentioned something about disagreement vs conflict, I hope you didn't take anything for much more than just disagreement, I'm not against you or anything, obviously. :)

Anyway, as I said, it doesn't really get to me too bad, this about things ending, it's just a thought that sometimes comes up. It goes away though. It's just that I prefer certain things not to end, because then I can have more of the specific thing that way. :) Time as a factor is important to me in general.


"i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it." THIS! The bolded above! Preach it, Sister!!! :rock:

Lol, you 7's are so funny. ;p

I do think this again allows more insight into the mindset of the 7's gluttony ;) Seems like it's not Ne-specific!


That's not just 7w6, your 7w8 brethren experience this too. :yes: I was very much so inclined when younger. Now, I realize that the daily/on-going maintenance of these things is taking away from my ability to maximally enjoy the present, and for a few years now I have thus de-materialized. It feels REALLY GOOD - the local Goodwill and CHKD Stores by my house freaking love me! :laugh: Does this mean that I am cured of the impulsive propensity to go out and buy something I think if just dandy as hell when the whim occurs? NO. However, my rule of thumb now to keeo peace in my life and marriage, and to remain among the living of this planet - is to ensure that any such urges of mine are few and far between, and that they never cost more than a typical trip to the grocery store. :rulez: :azdaja: :laugh: :newwink:

Ah I forgot to comment on this one before, I think. I also like to get some shiny objects sometimes. I can be really big on collecting certain objects from time to time, it's not a constantly "on" thing, it's periods in my life. Maintenance, I guess I just try to minimize time spent on that... it's alright... "De-materializing" is something I will need to learn. :) Definitely need to.


"i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged." Oh Yeah! :hifive: I am CURIOUS and WANT TO LEARN about EVERYTHING. :nerd: :rock:
You stated that perfectly - I dig it. :cool:

Hey. I like immersion and engagement too. :) Sx thing?


I am ALWAYS thinking - and I love it. :cheese:

Always thinking about what? As an Se-dom? Not sure I understand you there.


"They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves."
Very simply and truthfully put, YES.

So do you have this sense of entitlement?


Yes, There is a huge amount of natural comfort/and - or ego in 7s as a result of being so versatile - and thus "smart centric".
However, in my particular case of 7w8 weirdness I too have a HUGE core confidence in my WILL and my PHYSICALITY.

You ever felt split between 7 and 8 because of that? Or it's always been pretty obvious to you you are more the "versatile smart-centric" type?

Note: I can see already though that you're really a very positive type, positive outlook whatnot. I thought I was kind of optimistic, but I think you are even more positive, a lot more, hmm interesting to see. ;p


My Father taught me this when I was very young:
(...)
It was at that point in my life that I committed to being as smart, strong, and confident as possible - for if I developed these aspects of my nature, and of my body - then it would by default maximize my ability to succeed at whatever opportunities came my way, or that I created for myself.

Mmm I know what I'm going to tell my kids when I'll have kids. ;)


To the degree that thinking through things (quickly) is a 7 trait, I identify with that strongly. I've found that when I've had an idea to solve a problem that is common to more than just me and my group of people, if I pitch it before anyone else pitches their problem, and if my solution not only solves the problem, but addresses the needs of each of the participant groups whose efforts are required to solve it, there is very little resistance - and a natural ascension to a leadership position usually occurs. Of course, with any leadership role one assumes equal amounts of RESPONSIBILITY and AUTHORITY. As a 7, I default on fostering collaboration and consensus - and only resort to use of any type of rigid/authoritarian decision-making when I feel that the whim of others in the air is by all accounts not at all the best use of time and resources, and creates more potential risk than forward progress. And even then, I don't see the point in putting my foot down just to put my foot down. Why alienate a member of your team? Even if you meet with them in private to discuss differences of opinion, and then agree to disagree at the end of the conversation, holding the trump card in your back pocket - you will rarely have created an enemoy, or needless resentment - for you gave your counterpart an opportunity to be heard, and for them to hear your position before any final ruling was made. Again, these are examples from my own life experience. I am a person of unification amongst people, not division. Would I drop the hammer on someone who was not playing fair, or being reasonable, or who was putting the efforts of the endeavor as a whole at risk? Yes. Absolutely, without hesitation if I felt it was needed. BUT - in the same token, I would not take away their dignity. There is no need for that.

Pretty cool. I think only unhealthier 8's would bother with "putting my foot down just to put my foot down", etc., right? because I do relate to your attitude here.


In general yes, but depending on waht is at stake - we're all in - and then some. That's a hugely personal matter though, and for sure an exceptional defined by each person at the most individual level, but I felt compelled to point it out. :hifive:

Good point!


"I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly."
Yes, once we recognize our natural strengths we will capitalize on opportunities to use them in liew of pursuing similar endeavors that require us to master things not of our parlance.
A question though? Is this truly an E7 only phenomena? Or is this more human nature - that is simply more frequently exhibited by 7s than others? Really just curious. :thinking:

I guess the E7 specific part is what I bolded. I don't think of it in this exact same way as the bolded. I just relate to the more general approach that you described, capitalizing on strengths to take opportunities and master things.


We are still in the head center, my friend. It is simply what we focus on, and how we get to the end result/decision of our next set of actions that varies between Se and Ne. I can't state your words better - so I will state them again. :)

So you place yourself in head center/triad why? Quick thinking?


Neither Se of NE is SUPERIOR; they both have ALOT to OFFER. It is my opinion, that together they have far much to offer than either alone. As individuals however, we cannot choose to be masters of both cognitive funtions - but we can recognize our strengths and our weaknesses, and allow both to be balanced with the capabilities of those who can benefit from our competencies, and benefit us with theirs.

I was thinking of this myself before. :)


Something else; I guess you didn't have time to respond to my post? Or you missed it? I mean this one.
 

valaki

New member
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Messages
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SeNi
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8+7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
*bump*

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

:)
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
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ENFP
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5w4
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sx/sp
[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION]
It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.
just because there isn't a perfect correlation does not mean that drawing any correlations is a bad idea. for example, I think it's safe to say we're not going to find many Ti dom 2s, Fe dom 8s, Se dom 5s or Si dom 7s
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
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Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
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NeTi
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478
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sx/so
[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION]

just because there isn't a perfect correlation does not mean that drawing any correlations is a bad idea. for example, I think it's safe to say we're not going to find many Ti dom 2s, Fe dom 8s, Se dom 5s or Si dom 7s
I'm not saying there are no correlations between MBTI types and enneatypes. I'm saying Jung's Extroverted Feeling type isn't necessarily the same thing as, say, being a 2 (which some authors have tried to argue). Fe-dom 1s, 3s, 6s, and maybe 7s have also been noted. What I mean to say is, when Jung wrote about the types, he was touching on cognitive processes, not enneagram types.

A lot of enneagram authors have tried to appropriate Jung's ideas and claim that Ne is really a by-word for a certain enneatype, etc. I think, however, that the dominant function may correlate with many enneagram types, and the 4-letter code itself is seldom exclusive to one enneatype, either.

F'rinstance, like I said above, there are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. Ne+Ti is most often correlated with types 3, 6, 7, and 8; Ne+Fi is commonly found among 2s, 4s, 6s, and 7s. Clearly, there are correlations between MBTI process and enneatype; however, one type is not exclusively correlated to a dominant process. So when authors say things like, "Ne was Jung's attempt at grasping Type 8", I am strongly disinclined to accept this interpretation as well as the authors' knowledge of Jung's types.
 
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