[Type 4] How to grow to be a healthy?

[hjgbujhghg]

Okay...just theoretically. Imagine there's a 4 and that 4 just becames really unhealthy. She became absorbed with her own self, her own identity, her individuality to the point she fails to care about other people and duties in her life...acts like other people don't have emotions. She goes to the point, when everything that matters is how originally she expresses herself. And that 4 happens to have a 3 wing...that goes to its unhealthy narcistic and also 9nish state, so everyone around just seems as stereotypical, unoriginal and emotionally superficial looser. And that 9nish tendencies of a 3 wing birngs her to the state, when the intense emotions as we know it for 4, does no exist anymore, but there is rather numbness, laziness, hedonism and desperate attempts to bring back the intense emotions, that just won't come...What should a 4 like that do?

 

[Qlip]

Hmm, the thing with being a better person is that a person has to truly realize that they aren't happy as they are. I'd say this is the first thing to do.

Here's a quote from The Enneagram Institute:

Personal Growth Recommendations
for Enneagram Type Fours


Do not pay so much attention to your feelings; they are not a true source of support for you, as you probably already know. Remember this advice: "From our present perspective, we can also see that one of the most important mistakes Fours make is to equate themselves with their feelings. The fallacy is that to understand themselves they must understand their feelings, particularly their negative ones, before acting. Fours do not see that the self is not the same as its feelings or that the presence of negative feelings does not preclude the presence of good in themselves" (Personality Types, p. 172). Always remember that your feelings are telling you something about yourself as you are at this particular moment, not necessarily more than that.

Avoid putting off things until you are "in the right mood." Commit yourself to productive, meaningful work that will contribute to your good and that of others, no matter how small the contribution may be. Working consistently in the real world will create a context in which you can discover yourself and your talents. (Actually, you are happiest when you are working—that is, activating your potentials and realizing yourself. You will not "find yourself" in a vacuum or while waiting for inspiration to strike, so connect—and stay connected—with the real world.

Self-esteem and self-confidence will develop only from having positive experiences, whether or not you believe that you are ready to have them. Therefore, put yourself in the way of good. You may never feel that you are ready to take on a challenge of some sort, that you always need more time. (Fours typically never feel that they are sufficiently "together," but they must nevertheless have the courage to stop putting off their lives.) Even if you start small, commit yourself to doing something that will bring out the best in you.

A wholesome self-discipline takes many forms, from sleeping regular hours to working regularly to exercising regularly, and has a cumulative, strengthening effect. Since it comes from yourself, a healthy self-discipline is not contrary to your freedom or individuality. On the other hand, sensuality, excessive sexual experiences, alcohol, drugs, sleep, or fantasizing have a debilitating effect on you, as you already know. Therefore, practice healthy self-discipline and stay with it.

Avoid lengthy conversations in your imagination, particularly if they are negative, resentful, or even excessively romantic. These conversations are essentially unreal and at best only rehearsals for action—although, as you know, you almost never say or do what you imagine you will. Instead of spending time imagining your life and relationships, begin to live them.

 

[brainheart]

The Riso-Hudson advice always makes me laugh. They make it sound so easy, like an unhealthy four should be able to read it and go, "Oh, okay! I'll not pay so much attention to my feelings and become more self disciplined! Yay!"

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

The Riso-Hudson advice always makes me laugh. They make it sound so easy, like an unhealthy four should be able to read it and go, "Oh, okay! I'll not pay so much attention to my feelings and become more self disciplined! Yay!"

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

I totally agree! Ignoring emotions would lead a 4 to an emotional breakdown sooner, or later.

 

[Amargith]

You realise that you're chasing a high. Then you decide that you'd rather go for something sustainable. Compare it to going from chips and cookies to a balanced diet. It's not that you have to stop eating ( or feeling, in this case), it's that you have to balance out what you eat, both quality and quantity (aka, stop going for the easy high and work at something with those emotions, instead of just sniffing them like glue).

It won't be fixed in one night. And it will require grieving those chips and cookies. Then you start looking into what those healthy alternatives look like and which ones you'd like to try.

Then you get to work and take charge of *your* life, and channel those feelings properly for once, instead of letting them run amok. Each day, every day. You will fail, and you will stumble. And you will try again. And each day you'll learn something new. Each day you'll learn that while navel gazing is fun - and you will relapse - it isn't as satisfying as the next lesson to be found if you put in the work. You'll discover the journey that is life, you'll learn to cope with disappointment, to come back stronger than before and to retreat to your cocoon with some junk food just on occasion when life calls for it, then go balls out again the next day to find out what life has to offer today, or pour your passion into the thing you love when you've found it.

Iow, you'll finally live, instead of being lived.

 

[Qlip]

The Riso-Hudson advice always makes me laugh. They make it sound so easy, like an unhealthy four should be able to read it and go, "Oh, okay! I'll not pay so much attention to my feelings and become more self disciplined! Yay!"

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

Actually, I find that advice pretty straight on. We just tend not to take advice well. It's best that you ignore it, then discover it on your own, then pass it off as original knowledge.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

As a 4w3, I have experienced this unhealthy level a time or too. The key is to get your eyes off of yourself and get involved with other people. This is really hard when experiencing this level of low. Having the 3 wing makes me want to become the best I can be for myself. To do that I will create little goals like: when I walk into a room, I will get to know one person I don't already know. This allows me to be on the look out for others and not to navel gaze. Being a 4 makes me want to understand, so now I get to dig and learn about someone else too. But I think that person has to recognize they're unhealthy before they are ever motivated to change. It has to be me who see's my mess and me who fixes it.
If someone tells me I need help then I ignore them because I'm at an unhealthy level at that point. They don't know me- understand me. How could they ever know what I need? It has to come from themselves, the recognition and desire to be healthy.

 

[cascadeco]

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

hmm, i'm not sure what you say and what Riso was emphasizing is all that different. I don't think they were saying to ignore feelings, I think they were instead stressing not to place ones' whole sense of identity in them; also noting that falling into the trap of becoming more and more focused on internal world, thinking the more one focuses on it, the more truth one will find, is in fact quite counterproductive at a certain point, ie ultimately can't 'find' oneself fully, and in healthy balanced way, by spiraling in. Riso and you stress externalizing, looking outwards, whether via creation or simply letting go of the tight reins on the internal and experiencing or building outwardly. Not clutching to it and being deceived by it, but knowing when to drop it and look outwards as well.

 

[small.wonder]

The Riso-Hudson advice always makes me laugh. They make it sound so easy, like an unhealthy four should be able to read it and go, "Oh, okay! I'll not pay so much attention to my feelings and become more self disciplined! Yay!"

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

Totally agree with this, and don't feel like you have to do something amazing right away! My first step 4 years ago toward health was moving back to be near people who love and are supportive of me (and emotional health). My second step was revisiting and beginning to create again, even if it felt forced at first. Along with that, doing something to get me out of my house was very important! For me that was nannying for two small children about 6 hours a week. It was super small commitment, but allowed me to do and succeed at something while interacting with people. That nanny position (though not my dream job) became the first stepping stone of many to build my confidence and health to a point of actually vocationally pursuing what I love.

Being unhealthy sucks and requires action to get out of, but growth and health is so worth it!

 

[thatpants]

I'm pretty new to the enneagram concepts, but I'm also a 4w3, and I think the 4w3 traits taken to an unhealthy extreme can mirror some elements of borderline personality disorder (need for intensity, black & white thinking, relational cut-offs, and the traits you mentioned - numbness & hedonism). I'm not at ALL saying that any 4w3 has BPD, but I've found that some methods that work with BPD treatment also work especially well with my personality quirks, namely mindfulness strategies and DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy - look it up if you're inclined).

For me, I need a lot of grounding and practice being in the moment. So, creating stuff, yoga, cooking...those types of activities help a lot. But also, trying to be in the moment throughout the day (doing ONE thing at a time and concentrating on that thing, engaging all 5 senses while on a walk, body scans to be aware of where tension/stress is in my body) has helped me manage my moods and feel more connected when I have phases of disconnection. For me personally, spending time with a pet is one of the best ways for me to ground myself.

However, I do agree that the intense feelings we have are also the key to feeling purposeful...doing SOMETHING with those feelings (yes, making capital A Art can be awesome, but so can spending some really focused time doing a simple craft, or engaging in a [healthy] physical experience, or volunteering somewhere).

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I'm pretty new to the enneagram concepts, but I'm also a 4w3, and I think the 4w3 traits taken to an unhealthy extreme can mirror some elements of borderline personality disorder (need for intensity, black & white thinking, relational cut-offs, and the traits you mentioned - numbness & hedonism). I'm not at ALL saying that any 4w3 has BPD, but I've found that some methods that work with BPD treatment also work especially well with my personality quirks, namely mindfulness strategies and DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy - look it up if you're inclined).

For me, I need a lot of grounding and practice being in the moment. So, creating stuff, yoga, cooking...those types of activities help a lot. But also, trying to be in the moment throughout the day (doing ONE thing at a time and concentrating on that thing, engaging all 5 senses while on a walk, body scans to be aware of where tension/stress is in my body) has helped me manage my moods and feel more connected when I have phases of disconnection. For me personally, spending time with a pet is one of the best ways for me to ground myself.

However, I do agree that the intense feelings we have are also the key to feeling purposeful...doing SOMETHING with those feelings (yes, making capital A Art can be awesome, but so can spending some really focused time doing a simple craft, or engaging in a [healthy] physical experience, or volunteering somewhere).

I also noticed, that being aware of here and now and doing things that help me feel connected with the moment are the best for me to feel healthy and stable. But once you loose the connection it's extremly hard to find the path back. I can get lost in thoughts so easily to the point I can completly ignore my enviroment, usualy it costs me to use a lot of strenghts to feel really aware of the current moment.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

Totally agree with this, and don't feel like you have to do something amazing right away! My first step 4 years ago toward health was moving back to be near people who love and are supportive of me (and emotional health). My second step was revisiting and beginning to create again, even if it felt forced at first. Along with that, doing something to get me out of my house was very important! For me that was nannying for two small children about 6 hours a week. It was super small commitment, but allowed me to do and succeed at something while interacting with people. That nanny position (though not my dream job) became the first stepping stone of many to build my confidence and health to a point of actually vocationally pursuing what I love.

Being unhealthy sucks and requires action to get out of, but growth and health is so worth it!

I think nanny position is great for 4s, because they have to think and take care about others and can't be so drown in their own self. But for me personally a caring positions are the worst....I really dislike to feel responsible for others, it's just more than I can take. Maybe it's just about the level of maturity, but I didn't find this caring side of mine yet.

 

[small.wonder]

I think nanny position is great for 4s, because they have to think and take care about others and can't be so drown in their own self. But for me personally a caring positions are the worst....I really dislike to feel responsible for others, it's just more than I can take. Maybe it's just about the level of maturity, but I didn't find this caring side of mine yet.

Haha, that is quite true! I am really good with kids (it's like they think I'm Mary Poppins or Miss Frizzle or something) but I actually didn't know that about myself before that experience (I used to be super annoyed with children). It doesn't need to be working with children though! There are so many other kinds of positions that can benefit and spur growth for 4's in the same way, anything that is a small step and gives you the opportunity to succeed at something and get around other people! That could be helping out at your local library, working at a thrift store, or even doing some sort of volunteer work. Whatever floats your boat, but try not to write things off (we 4's do like to be particular, but it inhibits our growth).

 

[thatpants]

I also noticed, that being aware of here and now and doing things that help me feel connected with the moment are the best for me to feel healthy and stable. But once you loose the connection it's extremly hard to find the path back. I can get lost in thoughts so easily to the point I can completly ignore my enviroment, usualy it costs me to use a lot of strenghts to feel really aware of the current moment.

SophiaDeep, if being aware of the current moment saps your strength, what gives you strength? That may be helpful info in determining how to get back on track when you feel lost..

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think 4s need to actually be creating stuff to feel satisfied. I guess that might just be a side-effect of a healthy 4, but to me, it seems like unhealthy 4s are never doing any of that creative things that they say are important to them. I think that's a good way to tell if a 4 is in a funk or not, if they are doing creative stuff. It need not necessarily be something thought of as traditionally artistic, just something that involves them making pure aesthetic judgments without too many compromises to other people's.

 

[brainheart]

I think 4s need to actually be creating stuff to feel satisfied. I guess that might just be a side-effect of a healthy 4, but to me, it seems like unhealthy 4s are never doing any of that creative things that they say are important to them. I think that's a good way to tell if a 4 is in a funk or not, if they are doing creative stuff. It need not necessarily be something thought of as traditionally artistic, just something that involves them making pure aesthetic judgments without too many compromises to other people's.

YES. THIS IS IT, 100%.

 

[atlascatcher]

I didn't read all of the replies in detail so if I'm repeating information my bad. This is the other half of the Riso/Hudson recommendations from the book Understanding the Enneagram: The Practical Guide to Personality Types -

6. Talk open with someone you trust. This need not be a therapist, although it might be. You need both to express your feelings spontaneously and to have someone react honestly. You may well discover that you are not as different or as much of an outsider as you sometimes feel you are. Paradoxically, one of the surest ways of "finding yourself" is by being in a relationship with someone else.

7. Community service of some kind will make you less self-conscious and give you a better perspective on yourself. There are good things in you that you have kept hidden, possibly even from yourself. Find out what they are by getting involved in practical service.

8. Do not succumb to self-pity or to complaining about your parents, thoughts of you unhappy childhood, your unfulfilled past, your failed relationships, and how no one understands you. Someone would likely understand you if you made a real effort to communicate. (One of your unhealthy claims is that you have been damaged by your upbringing and are therefore exempt from having realistic expectations of any sort placed on you). Use your self-knowledge to be aware of the true effects of your negative attitudes.

9. Do not take everything so personally, thinking that every remark is aimed at you. And even if one occasionally is, do not go over it in your mind. After all, a critical or hostile remark does not reflect the whole truth about you. Usually, people are too busy worrying about themselves to scrutinize your thoughts or behavior in such detail. If in doubt, get reality checks from others -- ask them what they meant.

10. Beware of the harshness of your own self-talk. You tend to say and do things to yourself that you would never dream of saying or doing to anyone else. Learn to notice the inner voices of contempt and self-rejection that you entertain. Cliche though it is, become a friend to yourself. Stand up for yourself and give yourself a chance.​

I checked out the Enneagram Riso books from my university's libraries and ironically the only dog eared pages are regarding Type 4s. Go figure. Personally I really like the community service idea listed because it allows you to get outside yourself while feeling good about doing something for someone else. It also creates opportunities to build meaningful relationships in the sense of finding others to relate to. Seeing that you're a university student as well, are there any types of community outreach programs or community service projects that are creative in nature near you?

Both of the books have sections where they seem to tell 4s to get out and experience the world rather than living in their heads and I feel this has been true for myself as well. I feel most normal when I'm engaging with others or at least experiencing sensory activities that can ground me. You mentioned that it's hard to find your way back once you've lost the connection (I can totally relate) but perhaps finding some sort of regular activity you can take part in that has some sort of creative meaning interacting with others might be a place to start? I'm not sure what kind of opportunities you have in your area of the world though.

 

[NK258]

The Riso-Hudson advice always makes me laugh. They make it sound so easy, like an unhealthy four should be able to read it and go, "Oh, okay! I'll not pay so much attention to my feelings and become more self disciplined! Yay!"

I also disagree with them. I think a four becomes healthy by using those feelings to do something meaningful. The unhealthiness continues when the feelings create a state of despair/paralysis. But if the feelings are expressed in art or used to understand the pain of others, the four is using their talents/insights to bring something beautiful/transcendent to the world. Creating beauty and meaning through emotional expression gives a four self confidence (because they're doing what they're good at). Not paying attention to feelings I think negates the whole point of the four, and makes a four feel worthless/wrong.

agreed. my closest friend is a 4 infp. In addition to what you said, I think by expressing it in a healthy way creates a platform for her to reflect and THINK about her emotions. While she taught me to feel mine more. I think it's been wonderful to see her think of them more objectively.

This and believing in herself. That's huge.

Also. 4's (and many types) see things in a dichotomy fashion so her biggest hurdle to overcome was to not focus on the negative parts but rather to see the whole picture. interestingly enough, it was as if she would look to someone else and see the positives and then give them way more value than they were worth. while simultaneously only seeing the negatives of herself. thinking of her feelings and asking "why" more often I think helped her realize or notice how she would devalue her own self (ignoring the positive traits in herself and believing in herself etc.) whereas she would do the envy thing and attribute more worth to positive traits of others.

in other words. I have a positive trait she gave 10 extra points than it was actually worth. which would boomerang back around and make her notice her deficit of this trait and she would deduct points from herself. Luckily, over the years, and me pushing her to notice my negatives, and constantly pointing at her positives. she is the most amazing person I know. she became my rock whereas once upon a time I was hers. equally weird. I'm the one all crying all the time now I suck. wtf! hahaha! ... so weird.


honestly. I think people need people to grow. maybe the OP needs to open herself up and let someone in to really see the truth of reality as it is. not as the ego would prefer to see it. just my rambling take on the matter.

 

[MWill]

Thank you for this post. I'm a 4w5 and keep reading how I should stray away from the inner fantasy and imagination but it's helped me to create wonderful things throughout my life and it's hard to pull back from that.