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[Type 4] The e4 Instincts' Relationships to Shame and Envy

B

brainheart

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What do people think it is, depending on the instinct variant?
 

Azure Flame

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could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
 

hjgbujhghg

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I think social 4s are very much prone to feelings of shame and sexual 4s to envy.
 
B

brainheart

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I think social 4s are very much prone to feelings of shame and sexual 4s to envy.

I was under the impression that the whole image triad deals with shame. I guess I was looking for something more along the lines of-


Fours- how do you relate to shame and envy? How does this correlate with your instinct stacking?
 

Qlip

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I experience very little shame, I'd say less than any type. Envy, I have, but it doesn't correspond very well to the English word. On a more surface level, I don't envy people, I envy their abilities, which I feel are assumable. I suppose on a deeper level, I have envied, and by this I mean I am constantly aware that others seem to feel fulfilled,while I feel empty, but I know this is a mirage. But envy is never the right word, because it doesn't produce anger in me or jealousy. It either produces determination or a calm melancholy.
 
B

brainheart

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On a more surface level, I don't envy people, I envy their abilities, which I feel are assumable. I suppose on a deeper level, I have envied, and by this I mean I am constantly aware that others seem to feel fulfilled,while I feel empty...

I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-

-people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
-people who had parents who nurtured their talents
-people with better style
-people who are more socially skilled
-people who have better voices
-people who are musical prodigies
-people who can write novels (and finish them!)
-people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
-people who are independently wealthy


I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.

How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:

- Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
- People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
- Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
- Socializing is superficial and stupid.

You get the idea.

The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..

[MENTION=18559]SophiaDeep[/MENTION], I would love to hear how it is from the so/sp perspective, if you'd be willing to share.
 
B

brainheart

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I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: http://www.angriesout.com/teach8.htm



Shame is a fear-based internal state accompanied by beliefs of being unworthy and basically unlovable. Shame is a primary emotion that conjures up brief, intense painful feelings and a fundamental sense of inadequacy. Shame experiences bring forth beliefs of "I am a failure" and "I am bad" which are a threat to the integrity of the self. This perceived deficit of being bad is so humiliating and disgraceful that there is a need to protect and hide the flawed self from others. Fears of being vulnerable, found out, exposed and further humiliated are paramount. Feelings of shame shut people down so that they can distance from the internal painful state of hopelessness.

Shame is a result of early developmental loss either real or perceived. It may begin in parent-infant conflict where there is possible significant loss or threat of loss of the child's basic security. The child longs for closeness with the mother and father. If there is rejection or love withdrawal from the parent, the child is left with intense, painful emotions. On some level, the beliefs of "I am unlovable" develops and a core of shame starts to build. Anna Freud described these experiences as happening before the child develops language and therefore are not remembered. These feelings of not being loved cause the child to rage and/or go into silent withdrawal. Experiences that cause shame alter the child's basic trust of others and are at the heart of dysfunctional behavior.

Shame Equals the Global Inner Belief of "I Am Bad."
Energy has to go somewhere. Negative feelings and thoughts are energy. If the powerful feelings are not discharged, they are stored in the body. They may be denied and forgotten, but they remain as a negative force and the person goes through life with a nagging belief of not measuring up. When there are many unresolved experiences of shame in a child's life, the self evaluation becomes global. The child has a core belief of "All of me is bad." The child with a large amount of shame who makes a mistake does not make a specific attribution regarding an event such as "I did this. It was wrong and I can correct it" but goes automatically to feelings of unworthiness. The child then substitutes another emotion or numbs himself to avoid feeling the shame further stamping in the belief of being inadequate and helpless.

Scheff's theory is that shame causes a breakdown of the integrated self. The bypassed, unacknowledged pain is not available to be looked at due to the mechanism of denial. Dissociation and repression of the bad feelings allow distance from the shame with a cover up of "I am not this needy. This is not me. I cannot feel this vulnerable." Tension is discharged partially through substitute emotions but the core of shame grows even bigger as the individual engages in unhealthy behavior.

Shame-Driven Behavior
"Shame is the shaper of symptoms," said Donald Nathanson. The unacknowledged thoughts and feelings become repressed and surface later through substitute emotions and dysfunctional behavior. Other emotions are substituted to hide the shame and maintain self esteem. Anger, depression, exaggerated pride, anxiety and helplessness are substituted to keep from feeling the total blackness of being bad. The buried shame is expressed through defense mechanisms that shield negative unconscious material from surfacing.



The typical shame response is a heightened degree of arousal and self consciousness. The person in emotional pain averts his eyes and his head goes down. New information is blocked. There is intense discomfort and muscular tension. The body collapses inward to protect the self and there is a shrinking of body energy. The skin may become flushed with embarrassment. There are feelings of inadequacy and the fear of self exposure. The person wants to shrink, hide or even die to get away from the painful feelings of mortification. These feelings are so excruciating that the child wants to avoid them at all costs.

^This sounds to me more like the social four response to shame. Maybe the fact that it is the 'typical' response is why the social four is considered the 'shameful' four?



The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."

The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.

^This sounds to me more like the sexual four response to shame.


Shame and the Fear of Being Found Out
The shame-prone individual's biggest fear is for others to find out how bad he really feels inside. There is denial of vulnerability, avoidance of negative feelings that are perceived as weak and an inability to be real. [...] Men who are frightened of feelings learn to wall others away through withdrawing, numbing their feelings and intellectualizing.

^I don't know why she says this is a male thing (definitely people of both genders do this), but I'd say this is more the self-preservation approach.

Exaggerated pride allows the person to build up feelings of superiority again for the purpose of denying the global negative internal beliefs of "I am bad." The narcissistic individual reduces his own shame by feeling better than others; he elevates his status by putting others down.

^Again, sexual.
 

hjgbujhghg

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I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-

-people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
-people who had parents who nurtured their talents
-people with better style
-people who are more socially skilled
-people who have better voices
-people who are musical prodigies
-people who can write novels (and finish them!)
-people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
-people who are independently wealthy


I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.

How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:

- Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
- People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
- Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
- Socializing is superficial and stupid.

You get the idea.

The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..

[MENTION=18559]SophiaDeep[/MENTION], I would love to hear how it is from the so/sp perspective, if you'd be willing to share.

This is interesting. I usually feel envy about people who have a better style than me as well. I can't stand it, when I see someone is dressed more originally than I am :D . But most of all I feel the envy to people who are more sucessful and progressive with their talents and works...at one hand I feel good for them, because I usually really can appriciate a good work, when I see it and I am happy when the people who created it are noticed for their talent, but at the other I usually feel like...ouch where did I went wrong.. I think I have more problems with shame after all... I am prone to think about what others might think about me and when I feel like they might not like me, or reject me for some reason it usually makes me feel almost worthless.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I wrote something some time ago about what envy means to me, and I'll put that up here as soon as I locate it.

I'm really eager to read this thread all the way through, btw.
 

chubber

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could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
Ha! This post made my day.
 

small.wonder

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could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"

This is quite funny, but if this is true then I think I fall in the middle somewhere. I'm quite self critical when I say something stupid, or may have offended someone, and though sometimes I wonder why some people "don't believe I'm SUPER DOOPER" at things that I am good at, I would never say that I am. :shrug:

Onto [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] 's OP and the topic at hand. This is a great question and one that I'm not sure I have totally figured out yet. I've actually wondered more than a dozen times in the past couple of months if I might actually be Sx/So instead of Sx/Sp. I mention that because I do feel the social shame attributed to the social 4, just not all of the time. I find it so hard to tell as a 4 about Sp because I'm an introvert who considers every aesthetic element of my living space. Some would call that Sp-ish, but I'm beginning to realize it's not, it's just 4-ish. Besides, I am not overly welfare concerned as far as things like: locked doors, things being stolen, finances, my physical health or comfort, etc.

As far as envy goes, I unfortunately can relate to Naranjo's descriptions of Sx 4. He describes the envy of an Sx 4 as almost cannibalistic, "I envy you, so I kill you." is the way I believe he put it, very much in Cain style. Yep, not so pretty but there it is. I've grown a lot in this area, and though I still sometimes want to jack people in the face (mostly only when my envy of them is tied to feeling plagiarized or copied), I've become very capable in the self control department. :D

I do agree with the aforementioned concept of envying the abilities, friendships, circumstances of others as apposed to envying them as individuals-- that doesn't really happen because I frankly like being myself.
 

LittleV

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When you feel different (for whatever reason), you may envy others' seeming similarities... but you might learn to get over it. On the other hand... envying everything in your path through comparison and feeling constant shame is more linked to Neuroticism if it's consistent (and can lead to disorders if it would negatively affect your personal relationships for long enough -- i.e. vulnerable narcissism). I'm not a jealous person but I'd sometimes feel it (as well as shame); at my low moments, I'd get disappointed by how much others wouldn't know or understand about me (even if I'd try to tell them). Truth be told, those who have hurt me the most were not those who were indifferent or merely rudely careless toward me; they were the ones who would consistently try to find ways to feel better about themselves by bringing others down. Scientifically, active intent to harm (also known as aggression) in a consistent manner is referred to as bullying... and there are many forms of it. Hurt people (as well as insensitive people) hurt people. So when I'd try to help others... it's for their sake as well as others'. It's one thing to be too sensitive and being hurt by everything (not often good)... and another to be legitimately targeted and abused in some manner (often worse).

As an sx-first... I'd mostly feel it when my partner would get too flirty with others. But even then, I could find ways to work with that. :)
 

OrangeAppled

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could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"

For once, I agree. But internally I suspect INFJs are more self-critical than they appear (or so they claim) and INFPs more elitist than they appear (but others DO seem to pick up on this).

When you feel different (for whatever reason), you may envy others' seeming similarities... but you might learn to get over it. On the other hand... envying everything in your path through comparison and feeling constant shame is more linked to Neuroticism if it's consistent (and can lead to disorders if it would negatively affect your personal relationships for long enough -- i.e. vulnerable narcissism). I'm not a jealous person but I'd sometimes feel it (as well as shame); at my low moments, I'd get disappointed by how much others wouldn't know or understand about me (even if I'd try to tell them).

The whole "4s think/try so hard to be special" thing is annoying precisely because of this reality....how I long to be extremely normal, just like everyone else. But it feels like a constant battle between authenticity and posturing to be liked and loved. I reject the latter & tend to point blame at others for not appreciating something outside of their comfort zones.

I too am not a jealous person. I had a hard time identifying envy in myself in the obvious sense. When I first read this about 4s, I balked. I thought the relation of the ego fixes to "sins" forced. But then I started to grasp what was really meant by envy... it's more about longing, a sense of something missing that others seem to have, feeling short-changed in life, etc. It's not being threatened by the beauty of others. I love the beauty in others...it motivates & inspires me. I consider them "in my class" (that proximity to 3 vanity). When I feel intense resentment, it's when someone I see as mundane, inferior, receives what I feel deprived of - which usually is connected to love, liking, admiration, respect, significance, etc. My envy is experienced as INJUSTICE. The connection to 1 super-ego and 2 pride is obvious.... and I had a hard time seeing disintegration to 2 pride in myself too. I had to see "neediness" through the lens of PRIDE as a way of coping with envy and shame to relate to it.

I tend to experience "not being known" or "not being understood" as being meaningless to others (not willing to know me for lack of motivation due to my lack of being important enough). Being an sp-dom, I am driven to care for my own survival, and in 4 terms, this means grabbing the reigns of my own meaning. I will create my own meaning; it is not dependent on others. And the sx instinct is the seething resentment at the "ordinary" people who receive the some significant placement in the world because the "fit in". I do feel the so inhibition of shame....but it inhibits more than drives, and I see so-dom as taking a critical eye coupled with some elitist niche-seeking moreso than neglect due to scorn.

I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: http://www.angriesout.com/teach8.htm

Ah yes, I see these connections. The illustrative examples of Proust=social, Van Gogh=self-pres & Baudelaire=sexual work well for me to explain shame & envy in 4s.
 

Standuble

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I don't think I've ever wanted to be "normal" or like "everybody else" - I wanted to be completely myself but with myself being someone I can see the worth and value in; I imagine my "true self" to be free of the flaws that have existed in my life and to live the most fulfilled life possible. To be like everyone else is to be broken and to long for what they possess (perceiving their strengths to be your salvation) is the sweetest nectar but ultimately the chains that bind you. I try and keep mind to look within myself, pull salvage from the wreckage which is my mediocity and nurture my strengths and that the only solution which would ever be in my grasp lies within the self. However when I'm under stress I forget this to my detriment.
 

Amargith

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For once, I agree. But internally I suspect INFJs are more self-critical than they appear (or so they claim) and INFPs more elitist than they appear (but others DO seem to pick up on this).



The whole "4s think/try so hard to be special" thing is annoying precisely because of this reality....how I long to be extremely normal, just like everyone else. But it feels like a constant battle between authenticity and posturing to be liked and loved. I reject the latter & tend to point blame at others for not appreciating something outside of their comfort zones.

I too am not a jealous person. I had a hard time identifying envy in myself in the obvious sense. When I first read this about 4s, I balked. I thought the relation of the ego fixes to "sins" forced. But then I started to grasp what was really meant by envy... it's more about longing, a sense of something missing that others seem to have, feeling short-changed in life, etc. It's not being threatened by the beauty of others. I love the beauty in others...it motivates & inspires me. I consider them "in my class" (that proximity to 3 vanity). When I feel intense resentment, it's when someone I see as mundane, inferior, receives what I feel deprived of - which usually is connected to love, liking, admiration, respect, significance, etc. My envy is experienced as INJUSTICE. The connection to 1 super-ego and 2 pride is obvious.... and I had a hard time seeing disintegration to 2 pride in myself too. I had to see "neediness" through the lens of PRIDE as a way of coping with envy and shame to relate to it.

I tend to experience "not being known" or "not being understood" as being meaningless to others (not willing to know me for lack of motivation due to my lack of being important enough). Being an sp-dom, I am driven to care for my own survival, and in 4 terms, this means grabbing the reigns of my own meaning. I will create my own meaning; it is not dependent on others. And the sx instinct is the seething resentment at the "ordinary" people who receive the some significant placement in the world because the "fit in". I do feel the so inhibition of shame....but it inhibits more than drives, and I see so-dom as taking a critical eye coupled with some elitist niche-seeking moreso than neglect due to scorn.



Ah yes, I see these connections. The illustrative examples of Proust=social, Van Gogh=self-pres & Baudelaire=sexual work well for me to explain shame & envy in 4s.

This - with the exception of the last paragraph, due to sx-so preferences.

Thank you, btw, for confirming what Ive been unsure about for decades - that it is normal to take the reigns of your own meaning and that that is taking care of yourself, for a 4. I've been discouraged of doing that by others for so long and I never...really dared to coz it aint my main focus anyways. It is one of my biggest sources of shame though and it has always felt like a catch 22 - damned if you do and damned if you don't. People demand you take care of yourself but scream at you when you do in your own way - they just want you to be like them *sigh*
 

Noll

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I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
 

Qlip

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I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.

I'm reporting as an sx/sp, but I may be the other way around. What we have is not counter phobia, and maybe not bravery either. It looks like courting danger, but that's only because our SP is not focused on well-being, it's focused on 4 values. We're not looking to secure safety, we're looking to secure interesting lives.
 

Aurora James

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SX: "How dare everyone else be happy when I'm so deprived of joy!?" (Passionate Envy)
SO: "Why can't I be happy like everyone else is? There must be something wrong with me!" (Shame)
SP: "I wish I could be happy like everyone else..." (Wistful Envy)
 

Kullervo

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The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."

The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.

Wow, this is so me (at my worst, lol). If I'm honest with myself, I tend to act out in this way very often, especially when there is conflict with people around me. I do maintain a great deal of shame for my actions but almost automatically try to alleviate it in this manner.

This thread prompted me to take an instinctual variant test, and lo and behold:



Hmm...
 

Galena

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I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
I'd be the last person to call myself brave. But I have a memory that selects for moments of weakness, and courage is the most important quality to me - to keep on aiming for, as short as I may fall. It's kind of the logical anchor for other personal qualities. That is, to express anything whatsoever requires one to overcome the silencing forces inside...and those forces don't have to be fear, but any feeling that makes not doing the right thing look attractive. Shame does that well, too.

There are a lot of things that most people I know are afraid of, but I can't imagine being scary, mostly the things I will do alone and without help from others. Although, those arguably aren't an overcoming of anything because you can't choose the easy way out if you don't know it's there, and I tend to take for granted that I'm on my own and forget entirely that I have other options. On the other hand, I'm shy toward some things that are supposedly normal activities.

As for shame and envy, I identified those easily as problematic core feelings when I read about 4.
 
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