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[Type 4] The difference between 4's

Sunny Ghost

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I'm curious if there are many resources or if anyone is knowledgeable enough to explain the differences between INFP 4's, ISFP 4's, ENFP 4's, INFJ 4's, and so forth with the different wings and also different instinctual stackings or tritypes.

Each is flavored differently, and I'm curious how other's can pick it all out.

My roommate for example, I'm so certain is an ISFP. But she's very different from me. She can almost seem 7-ish/ESFP-ish. But it's taken me a while to realize that she is actually an ISFP 9w?-4w3-6w7/7w6 (of some variation) with a strong SX. She even considers herself more extroverted, but ESFP just doesn't seem fitting for her. I knew another ISFP 9 SX, who considered herself more outgoing, too.

Would anyone be willing to make a comprehensive list or to show resources to such existing information?
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
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I'd love to help you, but I don't have all the answers.

I can speak for myself, a 4w5 sx/soc ENxP triple reactive tritype, only (which I'll elaborate on if you are interested).

The closest I've come to finding an answer regarding tritypes has been from the Fauvres (who invented the concept). They have a tritype book which has a small blurb on each of the "flavors" of each enneatype. However, this is not extensive and I no longer have it in my possession.

Perhaps, we could work together to create something.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION]
Do you have specific questions? I will answer them - I'm a 4w3 with 8 and 7 fixes. Sx/Sp. I'm still debating the wings on the fixes, but most likely 8w7 7w8. I have ALOT of id. I just took an enneagram test because I was told it was different than the other tests - and it was - but I still scored as an 8, as I usually do, with 4 just behind. I'm an ENFP. I am probably much more assertive & "positive-outlook" seeming than other 4s, though I'm apt to be just as 'desperate' but I keep that stuff to myself and my creative work. Over the span of my life I'm generally more angry than depressed. Depression and sadness can kick in way, way, way after a loss, and then stick around for months, over something that happened years ago. Anger can do the same but it can also be very immediate. I mistyped at 8 for a while and I relate to SX4 "more 8 than 8". The differentiation was difficult for me, and I studied enneagram deeply - Maitri, Naranjo, Palmer, Ichazo etc. and I did not think type 8 was 'cool' - in fact I much prefer the archetype of 4 and 2 and a few others. But this might give some insight into the person I am... angry, lusty, hungry, vampiric when I'm very disintegrated.

I wrote a long blurb about myself here, if this helps. The 'goods' are mostly in the spoiler.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64372&page=6&p=2151164&viewfull=1#post2151164
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION] [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION]

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra.../73452-27-tritype-archetype-descriptions.html

^ This is a comprehensive list created by someone on another forum. You can also download the Fauvres' book on tritypes for their descriptions, though those are mostly the same as the ones listed here. If you want to create a list, I have a lot to say about this so I would love to jump in too :) I'm very busy writing my novel but I type faster than I think, and I've thought quite deeply about tritypes and collected a bunch of info, so I might be able to help out anyway.

To speak for myself, the 847/487/748 archetype listed in that description was spot-on for me. When I first read through them I was mistyped at 538, having known a lot less about enneagram. I read that description and said, "These descriptions are complete bogus - I am exactly like the 847 archetype and I'm a 538." Then when I read good enneagram sources & learned more, I became certain of my tritype one fix at a time, though I was still up in the air about my core (though I did mistype at 8, I still thought, "could I really be a 4?") ... anyhow. The tritype description was so accurate- down to the "Messenger" which matched my type-me thread perfectly, in which I said I feel I am a vessel through which creative work emerges, and it functions as a mirror; ideally, a mirror in which others see themselves rather than merely seeing "me." I do see myself as a messenger; always did. At one point I said "I want to be a symbol when I grow up." However, I would easily believe anyone who told me those descriptions did not apply and they were certain of their tritype; because the descriptions can be rather superficial, and have more to do with traits than motivations.
 

Sunny Ghost

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I'd love to help you, but I don't have all the answers.

I can speak for myself, a 4w5 sx/soc ENxP triple reactive tritype, only (which I'll elaborate on if you are interested).

The closest I've come to finding an answer regarding tritypes has been from the Fauvres (who invented the concept). They have a tritype book which has a small blurb on each of the "flavors" of each enneatype. However, this is not extensive and I no longer have it in my possession.

Perhaps, we could work together to create something.
I may start compiling something together when the semester is over and I have time to devote.
[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], I don't have any specific questions. I just find it all fascinating and think each brand is certainly different. I'm always curious how other's can pull it all apart. Part of it is also trying to determine my own tritype and instincts, and how to recognize it.

Ah! I just read what you wrote, animal. If you have the data, start compiling. I'd be keen to read it! And I'm about to dive into those links you sent.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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If you have the data, start compiling. I'd be keen to read it!

Okay.. I'm short on time, but I'll post thoughts in this thread as they come. Others can add to it too. Over time someone can organize it. :) I'll end up organizing it if nobody else does, because that's how I roll; I like neat lists.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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My thoughts at the moment:

For each enneagram core, descriptions tend to veer toward a certain archetype, but other tritypers can deviate from that archetype a lot. These are the tritypes I think are most archetypal (based on fairly superficial descriptions etc) for each. I don't agree with most of these visions of each type, but these are what many people commonly think of.

1s: 153 [efficient, calculating, knowledge-driven, allergic to emotions]
2s: 297 [happy, giving, give to everyone, people pleasers]
3s: 378 [outgoing, conquerers, always on top, egomaniacs]
4s: 469 [shy, socially anxious, worried about not fitting in, quiet, lost in their thoughts & daydreams, insecure]
5s: 594 [conflict-averse, social-phobic, stuck in their heads]
phobic 6s: 694 [trying to please & mix in with others while secretly mistrusting them, easy going, unconfident]
cp 6s: 683 [fearless, wild, fear-mongering, up-in-arms, very 'out there']
7s: 729 [cheerful, agreeable, charming, bouncy, floaty, un-grounded]
8s: 835 [cold, reserved, competent, always on top, detached]
9s: 972 [easy-going, agreeable, giving]
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
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In my experience with 4's that I know well irl over the years:

ENFP 487 4w3 SX: See above. Very out there, 'more me than me', symbol of myself, self-image of rockstar or tigress, very self-expressive but only in art, never let anyone control me, emotional displays are a private matter, the bulk of my emotions belong in my creative work and not in my relationships, lusty and carnal, angry but mostly process it creatively or at the gym, energetic, self-absorbed but generous, narcissistic, motivated, leadership skills, be respectful or you don't exist, no time for bullshit, long periods of isolation, always a loner or a leader, Sx-8ish

[note this is a description of myself, so someone else might see me differently]

ISTP 451 4w5 SP: Analytical, picky, socially incompetent but extremely charming and almost childlike in his lack of 'manipulation skills', idealist, either too blunt or too quiet at all times, perfectionistic as hell, extremely good at his chosen fields, talented as fuck, music spilled from the depths of his soul, nitpicky, knowledgeable, intellectual, serious intimacy issues, loyal to good friends, cried in public in his late 20s, seems like an autistic savant sometimes, a crying kid other times, and a hero other times, moody when drunk, blatantly self-destructive, bizarre points of view, very specific tastes, often 5ish

[MBTI uncertain] 469 4w3 SO: Seems sweet but stabs you with no remorse to get what she wants, wants your boyfriend but acts innocent, extremely creative, sweet personality, everyone felt bad for her and wanted to save her, very artistic and expressive through tattoos and art and creativity, very obviously self-deprecating, anorexic; but never made any demands, kind of a 'save-me' princess, always had a boyfriend, always had somethng quirky or interesting to say, seductive in that "helpless' sort of way, you can't be mad no matter what she does because she's so cute and helpless, soft, Sp-6ish

That's about all of my experience. Obviously the last one is not someone I hold in high esteem. ;) I am not suggesting all 4s of this make-up have similar attitudes but I am only listing what I've observed closely. I know two other 4s but I can't be sure of their tritype.
 

small.wonder

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I'm 458 and have spent quite a bit of time compiling info on my tritype, and 468 because I didn't know which I was at first. I'd be glad to assist if you all do plan on compiling info, since I've kind been doing that anyway. :)

Here's some of what I have on mine, 458 - The Scholar

* The 458 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts, but less reactivity than 468.
* The 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.
* Impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.
* 458 is the most tough-minded, opinionated, knowledgeable, analytical and direct 4.
* Craves knowing what makes people tick.
* More openly emotional and expressive, intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted.
* They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something.
* Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.
* Will avoid being ignorant and speak up for what they believe in-- fear being inadequate, incompetent and powerless.
* The 4-5-8 is the most direct and blunt of all the tritypes.
* seeing your place as in the shadows is exactly how the 458 describes themselves.
* The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.
 

Lady_X

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i don't know where else to say this but reading through the tritypes and maybe i'm not 729. i don't feel like i care about conflict that much really. it really doesn't bother me like it sounds like they're saying it does. i do try to help others resolve their conflict but not because conflict bothers me.
 

Sunny Ghost

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I'm uncertain of my own tritype.

4w5 for sure.

Can't decide between 6w7, 7w6, and 7w8.

And completely lost on my gut type: 8w9, 9w8, 9w1, 1w9, 1w2...?


So it's between:
4-6-8/4-8-6
4-6-9/4-9-6
4-6-1/4-1-6
4-7-8/4-8-7
4-7-9/4-9-7
4-7-1/4-1-7

I've been told I'm very mellow. I've also been told I'm uptight. I'm sweet, but can certainly be aggressive when I need to be. I'm not sure if there's a part of me that's an 8 or a part of me that's an annoyed 1. I also have bouts of extreme laziness and teeter between that with extreme motivation. I tend to fight for what I think is fair, and I've been told I have issues with authority. Which I don't necessarily think is the case, so much as I don't like to be wrong, and take a lot of pride in the things I do. So when an authority figure gets on to me for something, I tend to become a bit fiesty.
 

Sunny Ghost

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i don't know where else to say this but reading through the tritypes and maybe i'm not 729. i don't feel like i care about conflict that much really. it really doesn't bother me like it sounds like they're saying it does. i do try to help others resolve their conflict but not because conflict bothers me.

I'd probably place you in the 7-4w3/3w4-9 spectrum
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
Most of the differences can be explained by the functions, really. Many NFJ 4 artists for example present themselves as "givers", seeking to relate their work with the experiences of others or a general communion of man directly (or at least claiming to), while FP 4s will often take a more self-indulgent stance on their work by default, at least when they're asked to 'explain' themselves. Many (if not, most) NFJ 4 artists, of course, are self-indulgent, but they seem more likely to take the former stance than 4s that use Fi are.
 

Animal

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Most of the differences can be explained by the functions, really.

This is a good point but also, Naranjo claims the differences between 4's according to their stacking, is the most dramatic and differentiated in the whole enneagram. Meaning, an SX 4 is a very different animal than a SO 4 or a SP 4, at least from the outside or their presentation and self-image. When you cut down to the core they're still all 4s, but they will potentially seem drastically different from each other.

 

small.wonder

So she did.
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[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], this is so good. Thank you, haha I even took notes. :)
[MENTION=10131]IndyAnnaJoan[/MENTION] - The best and most fail safe way to discern your tritype is to actually examine your test scores (which show how high your scored in each type. You would just need to see which is your top scoring head type, and top scoring gut type. Integration and disintegration do complicate this though, for healthy 4's I believe it requires a good deal of introspection, examining of motives, and description reading to know if a high 1 score indicates gut fix, or is just a product of health. I was able to tell for myself because I only exhibit 1-ish traits in health while I've had 8-ish tendencies across the spectrum.

Re your confusion between 1 and 8: while I see your dilemma, they are actually quite different. I'd first look at your test scores, and if your score closely between the two this article on misidentification between 1 and 8 might be helpful!
 
B

brainheart

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Well, I'm an INFP 4 and in that way I think it makes me sort of a 'typical' four. Also, sexual fours are often described as the 'most four' four, so my instinct kind of reinforces my four-ness.

However, I think 4w5-5w6-9w1 is probably my best fit as far as tritype goes. With that comes a tendency to interiorize my intensity. I think it can make me look more sp/sx than sx/sp which confused me for a long while, because I'm pretty contained. I related so much to the obsessive/addictive/angry envy/need for a charge aspect of being a sexual four but people would say I didn't 'seem' sx/sp. So I tried on the sp/sx but it just seemed wrong, I'm really not that neurotic about self pres stuff, while I'm very neurotic about sexual issues. And I'm like an exploding atomic bomb internally. Internally I am extremely emotionally volatile. I am also bipolar, but I'm one of those bipolar people that no one would ever suspect of being bipolar, because everything is focused inward (unless I'm at my absolute worst, then watch out). I think to most people I seem easy-going, cerebral, and quietly dramatic. If they were to read my poetry they might change their mind.


[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], my one criticism of Naranjo's pov regarding fours being drastically different, instinct wise, is that most of us aren't purely one instinct. You can look at the instincts in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean people are going to look obviously that way. Some people the presentation of the dominant instinct is blatantly obvious. Others, less so. I'd say I'm definitely a sexual/self pres mix.
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
This is a good point but also, Naranjo claims the differences between 4's according to their stacking, is the most dramatic and differentiated in the whole enneagram. Meaning, an SX 4 is a very different animal than a SO 4 or a SP 4, at least from the outside or their presentation and self-image. When you cut down to the core they're still all 4s, but they will potentially seem drastically different from each other.


True. There also seems to be a significant divide based on head-fix, although it's not always obvious.
 

Amargith

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4w5-9w1-7w6 sx-so over here.

I'd say my most obvious traits to the outside world at first glance are probably either my sx-dom being inquisitive about you or my 9w1 so-aux approach to navigate larger groups, depending on how comfortable I am. Once you get me talking about what is important to me though...4w5 is probably going to smack you in the face. I tend to keep that part of me for myself for the most part though, obsessively researching and introspecting with the exception of joining in on analysis threads over here. If you see me on occasion going completely crazy in a trickster type way...that'd be my 7. :coffee:
 
A

Anew Leaf

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4w5-9w1-7w6 sx-so over here.

I'd say my most obvious traits to the outside world at first glance are probably either my sx-dom being inquisitive about you or my 9w1 so-aux approach to navigate larger groups, depending on how comfortable I am. Once you get me talking about what is important to me though...4w5 is probably going to smack you in the face. I tend to keep that part of me for myself for the most part though, obsessively researching and introspecting with the exception of joining in on analysis threads over here. If you see me on occasion going completely crazy in a trickster type way...that'd be my 7. :coffee:

I like a lot of what Amar says here and I can relate to how it breaks down as well.

I am 4w5 - 7w6/9w1 SX/SP so clearly there is a reason for the relating going on here. :)

I know a lot of people on here think I am mistyped on being 4w5 and I get why they think that given my overarching forum flavor. It's just something way closer to who I am and more private... like Amar says on keeping that part for her. It's definitely something that touches deep on the Fi+Ne part of me and is used for personal expression and exploration. More than one person on here has gotten smacked in the face with my w5 need to know ALL the things and preferably NAO. :laugh: Being SX dom also brings in my curiosity about other people and wanting to understand them and get to know them and see what makes them tick in a wide variety of angles and ideas.

I think the 7w6 in me is the playfulness that I bring out in large groups to entertain and have fun and be positive and weird around. It's my safe place to be outside of myself since the 4w5 side of me is nowhere near as well-received and therefore isn't as efficient to use with other people.

The 9w1 in me... I don't entirely understand this part of me other than I like finding common ground with people and between people who don't know each other. And thanks to [MENTION=4722]Udog[/MENTION], I know that my love affair with venn diagrams begins here. :wubbie:

I think the SX-domness is one of my stronger features that intensifies whatever e-face I am showing at a given time.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
Interestingly, I think naranjo's descriptions would correspond in this way for tritype- sort of, I didn't give it tons of thought. (I'd love to get others' opinions):

459: sp/so or so/sp
451: sp/sx
458: sx/sp
469: so/sp (maybe so/sx)
461: sp/sx
468: sx
479: so
471: sx/sp or sx/so?
478: sx

This doesn't mean that I think that people of this tritype are this instinct and vice versa, just that this is the sort of 'flavor' the tritype descriptions seem to give that correspond with the sort of 'flavor' Naranjo's descriptions seem to give. It would explain why when I listen to Naranjo I begin to wonder if I have a social instinct in there somewhere (despite the fact that I have little to no interest in belonging, etc.) because of my tendency toward passivity.

I think in these descriptions Naranjo explains the motivations of the instincts better. When I read this, the sx/sp corresponds with my way of being:

Enneagram Four

Self-Preservation: Tenacious. Different from other Fours (who are very oral in their drive to get something good from the outside). More self-sacrificing, more self-contained. A denial of envy, trouble finding envy in themselves, partly because of the descriptions in vogue when the Enneagram first became known. So afraid of dependency, of being hurt, they become counterdependent, autonomous. Self-demanding ("No matter what it may cost..."). Instead of demanding from the outside world, they demand from themselves. Self-devouring; they can turn on themselves with cruelty—"I'll make myself do it!" Van Gogh is an example. His painting became a kind of religion and he chose a life of great poverty "for his art." He sold one painting in his lifetime, yet recently the Sunflower sold for $54 million. (Gauguin was an Eight.) This subtype doesn't play the victim; volunteers as martyr without exhibiting it, more of a nobleness.

Sexual: Competition (Hate). Competitive anger ("I want that, too!"). Where the Social Four makes comparisons and feels "little," the Sexual Four experiences envy in the sense of denying their inferiority
("I should have it. It's unfair that I don't!") An arrogant position, a covering up a little bit like the Two covering up their Four connection; e.g., Baudelaire's mother remarried when he was eight years old and
he made such a fuss about being replaced by a stepfather that he ended up being put out on the streets. His position was always demanding and arrogant. He transformed the feeling of misunderstood genius
into art in his poetry. Angry envy. The word "envy" in Latin has to do with vision, with seeing, with the "evil eye," wanting something bad to happen to the enemy. "Borderline 3 Personality" describes the
sense of what we'd call a Sexual Four. Very intensely desiring. You want something so much you push until you are rejected. You have so much desire to be accepted you act invasively. The fantasy that you
would be rejected leads to the very behavior that gets you rejected.

Social: Shame. Social Fours develop mechanisms for calling negative attention to themselves. The shyest of the Four subtypes. There's a shame about desiring, about "loving." Proust is filled with the
Social envy of the person dazzled by the "aristocracy," who has a passion for being "in", who wants to be included, to receive their favors. A feeling of "I'm nothing," "I'm ugly," "I'm silly." Fours in general want to absorb through their gaze, but this is especially true for the Social Four.

From http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf
 
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