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[Type 4] Any christian 4's out there?

W

WALMART

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Unless you live in a theocracy or during the Inquisition, it's a choice what you believe and who you seek out to associate with.

I understand the notion. I merely find it impractical as an absolute.

I don't find my being of no real religious denomination of grand coincidence, either.
 

tkae.

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I understand the notion. I merely find it impractical as an absolute.

I don't find my being of no real religious denomination of grand coincidence, either.

It's impractical that going to church is free will? Is going to the grocery store not free will either?

Having discussions about Fours and not believing that free will is practical as an absolute is an impractical concept in and of itself. Fours live their lives based on the concept of free will. Why are you in this conversation if you don't think subscription to an idea is an act of free will?

You might as well talk about squirrels and not believe that nuts are a good source of nutrition.
 
W

WALMART

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It's impractical that going to church is free will? Is going to the grocery store not free will either?

Having discussions about Fours and not believing that free will is practical as an absolute is an impractical concept in and of itself. Fours live their lives based on the concept of free will. Why are you in this conversation if you don't think subscription to an idea is an act of free will?

You might as well talk about squirrels and not believe that nuts are a good source of nutrition.

At some level of human existence, going to the grocery store is far more a compulsion than an act of free will, one more link of the chain stretching back billions of years.
 

wildflower

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i'm a follower of jesus and a 4. i do tend to be a bit fringy in my preference of churches or ministries. i like more of a contemplative form of faith. God is way bigger than any personality type, but i can understand not wanting to do too much of the large church thing. been there, done that. it's challenging, but a faith community in some form is pretty necessary. it just doesn't have to be large or what the majority may be doing. there really is a lot of variety in the church world with groups like ihop, alpha, the emerging/missional church, vineyard churches, house churches, taizé, etc. we're not all baptist. ;)
 

chubber

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I get 4w5 sp and I'm Christian. I have a problem with the church though.
 

hjgbujhghg

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Christianity (or whatever religion) is a philosophy and ideology, not an institution. The Church is the institution of the religion. The institution is what would negate the individuality, not the religion itself.

And even if it did, membership in a religious institution is a voluntary act, made through an individual choice. There's no point along the road where membership in a church is a negation of individuality.

I'm a Christian 4. I don't really belong to a church right now, but that isn't related to my personality nor my ideology.

I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.
 

iNtrovert

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I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.

What if the rules/regulations coincide with how the 4 thinks he/she should be living their lives?
 

tkae.

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I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.

I did think twice, and I've thought twice before posting this post about how you're wrong.

You're comparing religion to slavery. You're literally comparing religion to a situation where there free will is deprived by physical restraint. I'm not even going to follow up on how that makes no sense, since will and action are different. You can do something you don't believe in, which is why it's called free will -- you're free to think and believe even if all senses and bodily functions are disabled.

Where exactly do you live? Iran? Spain during the Inquisition? Salem, Massachusetts? In what world do you live where a religious institution physically deprives their members of independence by physically detaining them and forcing them to believe by risk of physical punishment? That's a cult, not a religion.

It's completely possible -- particularly for fours, but possible for everyone -- to decide of their own will to associate with a different philosophy. I used to be a communist for fuck's sake, and now I'm an anarchist. People change their minds. We aren't talking about babies, we're talking about adults with their own minds.

I'm telling you, along with all of the others in this thread who have already told you, that it's completely possible for a Four to adhere to a religion without losing any amount of free will and individuality. It's done by scrutinizing religious texts and different ideas for oneself, applying them to one's own functioning worldview.

If you have a stick up your ass about religion being a bunch of brainwashing cultists that suck the soul out of their members and turn it into a colony of hive-minded insects, then that's the thread you should be making. If you aren't willing to listen to someone tell you the reason why it's not an issue for them to reconcile their religion with their individuality, then why did you make this thread at all? To find and hear people who want to join your anti-religious circlejerk?

In case you're still wondering, here's me thinking it for a second time:

You're wrong. There is a distinct point where active participation in a religion is an act of free will. I'll tell you what I told you Superunknown. You have a warped definition of free will if waking up early on a Sunday morning, getting dressed up, and driving from your house to the church for an hour-long church service isn't free will.
 

chubber

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Religionist systems, that depends on which interpretation of Christianity/following, which could lean over to cult-like or even extremists. Which seems to combine religion and culture as one system. That is only one way of looking at it. [MENTION=11066]tkae.[/MENTION] explained Christianity well. The system, which is the church, and today seems like a commercial entity nowadays doesn't seem to reflect what Christianity is all about. Conquering countries in the name of <religion>? Sounds more like power hungry individuals than the religion itself. Christianity is entered on the basis of free will. You still stay an individual.
 

hjgbujhghg

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I did think twice, and I've thought twice before posting this post about how you're wrong.

You're comparing religion to slavery. You're literally comparing religion to a situation where there free will is deprived by physical restraint. I'm not even going to follow up on how that makes no sense, since will and action are different. You can do something you don't believe in, which is why it's called free will -- you're free to think and believe even if all senses and bodily functions are disabled.

Where exactly do you live? Iran? Spain during the Inquisition? Salem, Massachusetts? In what world do you live where a religious institution physically deprives their members of independence by physically detaining them and forcing them to believe by risk of physical punishment? That's a cult, not a religion.

It's completely possible -- particularly for fours, but possible for everyone -- to decide of their own will to associate with a different philosophy. I used to be a communist for fuck's sake, and now I'm an anarchist. People change their minds. We aren't talking about babies, we're talking about adults with their own minds.

I'm telling you, along with all of the others in this thread who have already told you, that it's completely possible for a Four to adhere to a religion without losing any amount of free will and individuality. It's done by scrutinizing religious texts and different ideas for oneself, applying them to one's own functioning worldview.

If you have a stick up your ass about religion being a bunch of brainwashing cultists that suck the soul out of their members and turn it into a colony of hive-minded insects, then that's the thread you should be making. If you aren't willing to listen to someone tell you the reason why it's not an issue for them to reconcile their religion with their individuality, then why did you make this thread at all? To find and hear people who want to join your anti-religious circlejerk?

In case you're still wondering, here's me thinking it for a second time:

You're wrong. There is a distinct point where active participation in a religion is an act of free will. I'll tell you what I told you Superunknown. You have a warped definition of free will if waking up early on a Sunday morning, getting dressed up, and driving from your house to the church for an hour-long church service isn't free will.

WTF? I didn't make this thread! The thread was made by DJ Arendee... I just thought it's interesting and I want to join the conversation and post my thoughts and opinions as a person of free will... So you say religions are not prisons? Well not all of them, but a lot of them... and there is no way have anyone can vindicate the thoughts all religions allowed to have a free will...Because it's bullshit. Yeah I am not talking about those highly developed and open minded religions, that allows you to have a free will...I am talking about religions, that exist here in world and people can become literaly a slaves for them. And oh...christianity has the rich history in brainwashing, manipulation, cruelity and violence...and if you don't see it put off the pink glasses. I am not saying all christians are bad, I am just saying you can't possible think, that religion that caused deletion of most of anthic amazing knowledge by terrible book burning, meaningless executions because someone just had differnt opinion, spreaded fear in society just simply because it needs power ower the people so much, the religion that caused Crusades, that slowed down the developemnt of science just because it negates the bible, the religion that prohibited autopsy just because god says...imagine where our medicine could be if the christians would alowed autopsy hundereds years before. Imagine the knowledge we could have if only we knew the greek phylosophy and science better. If we really had the acces to their books. You know what book are we reading about anthic philosophy? The books that were sent from greek to turkey, where they were translated into arabian language, alot of books were lost in their travels from one country to another and then the books were sent back to europe to be translated once again from arabian to latin and then they were translated to other eurpean languages. And I am not saying about the rest that christians just burnt... History you say... It's different now... maybe but did we forget what Hitler did? No! None tells you...history...everybody tells you he was that bad guy...So how the fuck it is possible christians get all fine with this? If the religion is spread by people like this, it's nothing more just a manipulation tool... and if you talk so much about free will, you will accept this opinion as the act of my free will...
 

chubber

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What if the rules/regulations coincide with how the 4 thinks he/she should be living their lives?
I am not saying it's impossible, but rather uncommon.
I could agree with that. But be careful not to fall into the trap of those that have cult-like behaviour. Just because some extremists decide to go blow up a building, doesn't mean everybody is like that and everybody conforms to that and support it.
 

OrangeAppled

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Yes, a Christian. I have some unusual beliefs though.
I suppose the savior theme has its appeal.
 
B

brainheart

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I was born into Catholicism to very 'by the book' Catholics. I think my problems with it had more to do with being a Fi dom than anything, but maybe it is an e4 issue as well. More than anything, I've just never felt the need to have some external guide to tell me what's right and what's wrong. It's always been something I've just known inside of me. Also, I always felt far more spiritual and divinely connected alone in nature. I remember when I first encountered transcendentalism and Taoism I thought, that's totally how I am.

I've never been one to be able to pick and choose on values. Once I found out The Church's stance on homosexuality I was forever severed, because it so completely contradicted my own. Also, I could never deal with how everything is always the same in church. Tradition bugs me. It's so... redundant. There are a couple of things that I like about Catholicism, though, and I think they are quite in sync with being a 4:

The saints, especially those who followed their own values despite opposition from most people: Saint Francis, Joan of Arc, Elizabeth of Hungary, most of the martyrs.

The idea of loving people for their inherent humanity not their external accomplishments.

The tragedy and suffering of Christ. A Catholic Church- at least the older ones- are filled with some pretty gory and intense images. I was always drawn to that. The idea that pain is something admirable, that will lead to something greater appeals.

The art and music. New churches are ugly and gross, but I love me a gorgeous Cathedral with a big ol' pipe organ. I don't want to 'participate' in the Mass, but I love to be in such a beautiful environment. I also love to sing so I like that part too. I think if I lived in a city with a gorgeous cathedral I would probably go to church on occasion, just to sit and think and enjoy the surroundings- ideally when mass wasn't going on.

Also, as [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] mentioned, I think the idea of a savior/rescuer is something a four could definitely latch on to. I know that when I was very young I believed in God and had faith in Christianity. At some point that ended and there is a part of me which wishes I could feel like that again. But I also know I can't. It's part of the tragedy of my existence, honestly, that loss.
 

Qlip

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I don't worship Satan, at least not *only* Satan, that would be too constraining.
 

ayoitsStepho

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As a Christian 4, I want to seek out the heart of the belief system. What is it trying to teach despite what other follows think? To me, Christianity is about love: Love God, love others and love yourself. I believe that's the over all theme and everything else is just the details as to how to do it and how not to do it. I think we can get too caught up in the rules when the reality is (within the Christian belief) is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins: yesterday, today and tomorrow. If we are so loved that he would die for us, that he wants that relationship with us, then that should affect how we treat each other. If he died for me, he died for you and it doesn't matter what you do, what people think of you or any other bull-everyone is worthy of that gift.
I can't sit here and scream about "oh the Bible says not to do this so you're a horrible sinner and going to hell" because I don't believe that. There is nothing loving about that. As long as you believe it, you can have it. I use my belief as a means of freedom and not restraint, to look at how I can grow and show that love to others. That's it.

As for the whole 4 individuality thing, I think the more you dig and figure out your own connection with God, the more you can find your individual purposes and learn to like your individual self if you don't already.

Anyway! If you have questions, shoot me a pm or whatever. I hope that explains one 4w3's view and use of Christianity. :)
 

prplchknz

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any type can be christian, any type can be atheist, any type can be agnostic, any type can be anything

[/end thread]
 

Typh0n

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I much prefer the mystical Hermeticists over the faithful Christians, as they offer the real introspective auras of wisdom and adventure!

Christianity spoonfeeds you all the answers, whereas Hermeticism is about seeking your own answers. In my humble opinion.
 
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