• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Type 6] Supervising 6's

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Yeah, this is a really good point. 3s and 8s especially tend to be pretty ego-forward and 6s tend to find that threatening, because it feels like infringement upon natural rights. I think the 6 mentality is more like you earn your title and respect by what you do.

hmm, that makes a lot of sense. I personally have no problem when a boss tells me they are the boss. How else are you supposed to know who to go to for orders? There's no way around it. However, if I'm being insubordinate and a boss asserts their rank, its suddenly revealed to me that they feel powerless over me, as the only time someone would ever say that is out of last resort, because they obviously lack the fundamental respect required for leadership to be effective.

In the military, rank is posted on your collar, so there's no real need to say "I'm in charge," as its there for all to see, shining brightly under the lights. I notice a lot of 6's used to just have this bad attitude of "look at you mr officer with your shiny stuff, you think you're hot shit?" and ultimately nothing was said to deserve that treatment.

One of the most aggravating aspects of leadership is dealing with e6 skepticism. Most of the time it just infuriates me to where I have to raise my voice. Its been this way for YEARS! I feel like there are a lot of people who just try to get a rise out of me and don't respect me until I shout at them *ahem... entj's.*
 
W

WALMART

Guest
I had a 6 assistant manager. Luckily he got promoted, and a gut type took his spot.
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
When I do get riled up over someone else's assertiveness, it's usually out of jealousy. I can't say I've reacted that way towards employers.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm not sure why you'd interpret that as such. I'm smart enough to understand that the second you assert your rank is the second you lose respect, and I don't ever actually say "I'm the CEO, therefore do as I say." I do tell people I'm the owner because its important for everyone to know exactly what position they hold and what their responsibilities are. *shrugs*

OK good - that wasn't clear based on your description.

Anyway most of the E6's are betas

Do you equate beta with phobic? People act differently in different situations so I would be careful about arriving at conclusions there. If they are assertive enough to be vocal or complain, that might indicate otherwise. They might also be introverts intimidated by an an ESTP 8 that owns the place. Their job security is at stake.

It sounds like you are objecting to the complaining and having to step in on trivial matters and help devise a solution. I can understand how that would be frustrating as that sort of thing drives me nuts. My approach (not necessarily the best one) is to spend time with them, ask questions, provide observations and suggest options without dictating what needs to be done. A lot things just get resolved by spending time talking to them as they are able to vent a little and think through how to resolve their own problems. I let them decide unless it's a really important decision in which case I will force a good dialogue on it and then decide. I listen a lot more than I talk. The questions are an important part of it because by doing that I think it can help the person or team think through a problem. I tend to push more and more responsibility on people over time - continually increasing set of expectations. Then they seem to grow from that. They reach a point where they don't need me so much any more though they seem to value my opinions/insights. That's an INTJ style of leadership though and what works for me may not work for you.

6s don't seem any different to me than other types except for the annoying testing that you're still loyal to them. I will have to admit to using Enneagram a lot less in work situations than MBTI. I'm sure there is more that could be done with it. I've got an INFJ Enneagram 1 who isn't performing right now and trying to figure out what to do about that. She tends to complain a lot too. I am working on it and am optimistic that it will get better. It's like a challenge.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
hmm, that makes a lot of sense. I personally have no problem when a boss tells me they are the boss. How else are you supposed to know who to go to for orders? There's no way around it. However, if I'm being insubordinate and a boss asserts their rank, its suddenly revealed to me that they feel powerless over me, as the only time someone would ever say that is out of last resort, because they obviously lack the fundamental respect required for leadership to be effective.

Yeah, exactly.

In the military, rank is posted on your collar, so there's no real need to say "I'm in charge," as its there for all to see, shining brightly under the lights. I notice a lot of 6's used to just have this bad attitude of "look at you mr officer with your shiny stuff, you think you're hot shit?" and ultimately nothing was said to deserve that treatment.

Right. I think if somehow it could be demonstrated that those officers will use their power fairly, most 6s would have no problem with them. But leadership corrupts so, so many people. They get a little power and they start using it to their own ends instead of to the benefit of everyone. That is the #1 problem I have with authority, that they don't use their power fairly or responsibly. For example, I respect my manager much more than my immediate supervisor because the manager is an asshole, but he works hard, whereas the supervisor is nicer but he's much more self-serving and takes care of himself before anyone else.

Though I would say it is unlike a 6 to call someone out only because they are higher-ranking. 6s are reactive and unlikely to act in response to something static like that. They probably would only call them out if they saw some pattern of corruption, whether real or perceived.

One of the most aggravating aspects of leadership is dealing with e6 skepticism. Most of the time it just infuriates me to where I have to raise my voice. Its been this way for YEARS! I feel like there are a lot of people who just try to get a rise out of me and don't respect me until I shout at them *ahem... entj's.*

Can you give some examples? I don't feel like you should have to be shouting at them, and it might even be making the situation worse. I might be able to provide some explanation and suggestions.

superunknown said:
I had a 6 assistant manager. Luckily he got promoted, and a gut type took his spot.

Yeah. I don't think management is the best place for many 6s. I'm sure there are some who can deal - I did, for a while, and I received good feedback from most of my coworkers - but it's a lot of pressure on both ends, and lots of dealing with abuse of power.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
OK good - that wasn't clear based on your description.



Do you equate beta with phobic? People act differently in different situations so I would be careful about arriving at conclusions there. If they are assertive enough to be vocal or complain, that might indicate otherwise. They might also be introverts intimidated by an an ESTP 8 that owns the place. Their job security is at stake.

It sounds like you are objecting to the complaining and having to step in on trivial matters and help devise a solution. I can understand how that would be frustrating as that sort of thing drives me nuts. My approach (not necessarily the best one) is to spend time with them, ask questions, provide observations and suggest options without dictating what needs to be done. A lot things just get resolved by spending time talking to them as they are able to vent a little and think through how to resolve their own problems. I let them decide unless it's a really important decision in which case I will force a good dialogue on it and then decide. I listen a lot more than I talk. The questions are an important part of it because by doing that I think it can help the person or team think through a problem. I tend to push more and more responsibility on people over time - continually increasing set of expectations. Then they seem to grow from that. They reach a point where they don't need me so much any more though they seem to value my opinions/insights. That's an INTJ style of leadership though and what works for me may not work for you.

6s don't seem any different to me than other types except for the annoying testing that you're still loyal to them. I will have to admit to using Enneagram a lot less in work situations than MBTI. I'm sure there is more that could be done with it. I've got an INFJ Enneagram 1 who isn't performing right now and trying to figure out what to do about that. She tends to complain a lot too. I am working on it and am optimistic that it will get better. It's like a challenge.

I don't think there is a METHOD to leadership. I think leadership is as simple as loving your subordinates. In other words, you give them what they need, not necessarily what they want. Sometimes the hard part is figuring out what it is they actually need.

Otherwise, I noticed you have INTJ in your MBTI, and the only E6's I seem to run into difficulty with are 6's with Fi and Te. (gamma and delta E6's). Beta 6's do have the typical problems I associate with other 6's, but their skepticism has zero effect on me. An ISTP 6 girl I was into would yell at me randomly and tell me I was judgemental as hell etc but for whatever reason it didn't bother me. for some reason I always just KNEW things would smooth out afterward. Sometimes I was a little wary of her aggression but it wasn't something I couldn't handle. I think my biggest problem is the Fi judgements that are thrown at me by 6's. For example, an INFP 6 told my XO "Jay just put that guy in charge so that he could be a CEO! He doesn't give a shit about any of my ideas or classes."

agh! From what I understand he was pissed because we are no longer in a bonding relationship as I put a wall between us, so he feel isolated and alone in his efforts. So for this guy specifically, I don't really know what to do. He's pissed because I pushed him out of the nest, and as such I can see him being far less effective than he was when he was given training wheels. He could also be a 9. Sometimes its hard to say.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Can you give some examples? I don't feel like you should have to be shouting at them, and it might even be making the situation worse. I might be able to provide some explanation and suggestions.

well, ok... I almost never shout. I think I've screamed at people probably 4 times in my entire life. But to be specific I certainly raise my energy and I get irritated with people.

One example, in high school, I had a kid next to me who kept punching me in the face. some bolivian fuck. anyway he kept punching me (lightly). The third punch I turned toward him and asked, "what are you doing?"

"hitting you."
"I can see that. why?"
"because I know you won't do anything about it."

so I knocked out his wind. after that we were best friends. lol.

This stuff happens all the time, I shit you not. The only reason its stopped recently, as far as I can tell, is because now I wear combat boots, BDU's, sunglasses and a leather jacket most places I go, and shoot most strangers with a look of hostility (hooray for growing up!). I'm also about twice the size I was in high school and I don't look like much of a nice person anymore, unless I'm with friends or making videos on youtube where no one can actually hurt me. Its taking me all of my courage to realearn how to be the smiling ESTP I was when I was 7 years old.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
The only reason its stopped recently, as far as I can tell, is because now I wear combat boots, BDU's, sunglasses and a leather jacket most places I go, and shoot most strangers with a look of hostility (hooray for growing up!). I'm also about twice the size I was in high school and I don't look like much of a nice person anymore, unless I'm with friends or making videos on youtube where no one can actually hurt me. Its taking me all of my courage to realearn how to be the smiling ESTP I was when I was 7 years old.

Well, I meant specific examples from work, but if you're presenting yourself aggressively, 6s aren't going to respond well in general.

I don't know that I see threatening the world as a positive way of protecting yourself.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Well, I meant specific examples from work, but if you're presenting yourself aggressively, 6s aren't going to respond well in general.

I don't know that I see threatening the world as a positive way of protecting yourself.

Naw it works. Everyone thinks I'm a psychopathic serial killer. they stay away. That gives me control over who I choose to approach on a more personal level.

For some reason, when some humans see something defenseless they hunt it. Or when something strong drops its guard, they take that opportunity to slay it. Much the same reason a mountain lion attacks a human only when it starts to run away.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Naw it works. Everyone thinks I'm a psychopathic serial killer. they stay away. That gives me control over who I choose to approach on a more personal level.

For some reason, when some humans see something defenseless they hunt it. Or when something strong drops its guard, they take that opportunity to slay it. Much the same reason a mountain lion attacks a human only when it starts to run away.

Please don't take this offensively, but I think this is a very 8 point of view, and perhaps slanted by that.

It's curious that you're worried about others hunting you but to protect yourself, you threaten others.

I don't deny that it probably works but I do think it probably has some unintended negative consequences.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't think there is a METHOD to leadership. I think leadership is as simple as loving your subordinates. In other words, you give them what they need, not necessarily what they want. Sometimes the hard part is figuring out what it is they actually need.

Caring about people and doing what you suggest are both very important. I agree. However I assure you there are a number of different ways that people lead and there is also some science around this stuff on what works and what doesn't. A lot of it is innate but a lot of it a specific set of skills which often is developed through experience. Look for some stuff from the Center for Creative Leadership as an example.

Otherwise, I noticed you have INTJ in your MBTI, and the only E6's I seem to run into difficulty with are 6's with Fi and Te. (gamma and delta E6's). Beta 6's do have the typical problems I associate with other 6's, but their skepticism has zero effect on me.

What is this alpha, beta, gamma, delta thing? Not sure what you are referring to or what relevance it has.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Caring about people and doing what you suggest are both very important. I agree. However I assure you there are a number of different ways that people lead and there is also some science around this stuff on what works and what doesn't. A lot of it is innate but a lot of it a specific set of skills which often is developed through experience. Look for some stuff from the Center for Creative Leadership as an example.


What is this alpha, beta, gamma, delta thing? Not sure what you are referring to or what relevance it has.

my bad, that's socionics.

alpha is ntp sfj, beta is nfj stp, gamma is ntj sfp, and delta is stj nfp. Basically 4 clubhouses of identical thought. all 4 of the personalities contained in each quadra share the same value functions, and thus get offended over or enjoy similar things.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Please don't take this offensively, but I think this is a very 8 point of view, and perhaps slanted by that.

It's curious that you're worried about others hunting you but to protect yourself, you threaten others.

I don't deny that it probably works but I do think it probably has some unintended negative consequences.

Yes. The side effect is that I have hate groups following me. :banana2: The reason I know its not a big deal is because, people who hate me are usually easy to defend against. Its the social ninja assassin 2's and 3's I've recently come to abhor, who don't let you know how they really feel about you until after they stabbed the big target on your back.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Are you sure they want comfort? I vent (ok, whine) a lot, but I don't want comfort at all. I'd rather not have it, actually. Just a bad habit.

edit: actually thinking about it again, it seems more likely that they're complaining to you as the boss about real problems that they'd like you to fix (like not having enough people for X task or whatever), not looking for emotional support. It's obviously your job/privilege to determine which complaints you want to ignore vs. try to resolve, but I wouldn't dismiss them outright.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
One of the most aggravating aspects of leadership is dealing with e6 skepticism. Most of the time it just infuriates me to where I have to raise my voice. Its been this way for YEARS! I feel like there are a lot of people who just try to get a rise out of me and don't respect me until I shout at them *ahem... entj's.*

No, you're getting it wrong: we honestly disagree, but stop when people start shouting or asserting themselves too strongly/loudly.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
No, you're getting it wrong: we honestly disagree, but stop when people start shouting or asserting themselves too strongly/loudly.

You're not referencing my (DJArendee's) behavior specifically are you?

I suppose I can believe that. What I don't understand is why you would keep going when you know what you're doing isn't going to be taken very well... unless you're legitimately oblivious to the consequences of telling someone how to operate their life... or you are choosing to be vindictive.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
my bad, that's socionics.

alpha is ntp sfj, beta is nfj stp, gamma is ntj sfp, and delta is stj nfp. Basically 4 clubhouses of identical thought. all 4 of the personalities contained in each quadra share the same value functions, and thus get offended over or enjoy similar things.

That is an interesting grouping. One of these days I'll have to learn something about socionics.
 

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
So, I'm the ceo of a gym in charge of a gaggle of E6's.

I'm wondering, is it my job to comfort them or not? Is it bad practice to allow someone to become dependent on you for support?

these guys do awesome work but constantly complain about it, and when I ask them how its going they're completely negative to the point where it starts to rub off on me. I used to pump them up and make them feel better, but its completely draining for me to have to do that so often.

I know its wiser to teach a man to fish, rather than to give a man a fish, so in this situation, how exactly do I teach the E6's how to fish for themselves instead of turn my office into the house of whining? I don't like the idea that I just kick them out and tell them "come back to me when its done and your attitude is better."

I'm a ENTJ, E6. I work under an E8. I hate it. She is also a Perciever. (meaning she's got a p at the end of her 4 MBTI letters)

She gives me no structure.

I feel like 6's make shit happen and get shit done....especially if they like/trust you.

The other side of that is...that 6's are just gonna vent and want to talk things through to blow off steam. Also they need pre-established procedures to go by. But then the 6 will know the rule book like the back of their hand.

The problem I have with my supervisor ( I don't know if this matches your scenario) is that she needs to tell me her priorities. I can't just read her mind and know what's more important.

Kinda gotta spell it out.

Well, mostly just how hard the task at hand is.

him: "I'm gonna have to get everyone together by sunday, that's gonna be hard. the event is monday, and my girlfriend wants to do this on tuesday... *sigh* I guess this will work out *sad face slowly increases as he continues to ramble*"
me: "what do you need help with?"
him: "um... Idunno... I'm good I guess."

In most situations I have to sit there and analyze their situation and then insert my own effort to help them do their job. Its draining to have to figure out what needs fixing and for them to not really know either. I'm a big believer in servant leadership, but there comes a point where I'm doing too much for them and really only exhausting myself.

In this case I woulda said that stuff the E6 said too...from my pov that's not whining...but to an 8 it prolly is. I think they're talking it out and trying to figure out your priorities.

Objective: get everyone together by Sunday

but what I would be thinking is...what happens in the worst case scenario...meaning...what if I can't get everyone together by Sunday? Or what happens when whatever all the other problems that can occur...do occur. What gonna make you the happiest.

What's your first priority? Then your next priority in line...and so on.

My boss asked me to "do a training on ticket sales...in a week."

That is all she fuckin said to me.

She wouldn't let me ask her any questions either.

Wtf is it supposed to look like? Who am I training? Does it need to be a certain format? blah, blah, blah.

I need more of an outline than a damn deadline....

I did the assignment and felt like shit the whole time cause there was no outline. I felt like it was gonna be wrong no matter what I did cause I can't read her mind.

If you want them to provide their own structure cause it's draining you to figure out everything that needs fixing...then tell them... and let them come up with their own "worst case scenarios."

But you have to be happy with whatever they bring you then, no matter what...and then tell them What and WHY it made you happy. That is how we learn your priorities.

That and everything that [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said. Skylights always has the answer! :)
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
I'm a ENTJ, E6. I work under an E8. I hate it. She is also a Perciever. (meaning she's got a p at the end of her 4 MBTI letters)

She gives me no structure.

I feel like 6's make shit happen and get shit done....especially if they like/trust you.

The other side of that is...that 6's are just gonna vent and want to talk things through to blow off steam. Also they need pre-established procedures to go by. But then the 6 will know the rule book like the back of their hand.

The problem I have with my supervisor ( I don't know if this matches your scenario) is that she needs to tell me her priorities. I can't just read her mind and know what's more important.

Kinda gotta spell it out.



In this case I woulda said that stuff the E6 said too...from my pov that's not whining...but to an 8 it prolly is. I think they're talking it out and trying to figure out your priorities.

Objective: get everyone together by Sunday

but what I would be thinking is...what happens in the worst case scenario...meaning...what if I can't get everyone together by Sunday? Or what happens when whatever all the other problems that can occur...do occur. What gonna make you the happiest.

What's your first priority? Then your next priority in line...and so on.

My boss asked me to "do a training on ticket sales...in a week."

That is all she fuckin said to me.

She wouldn't let me ask her any questions either.

Wtf is it supposed to look like? Who am I training? Does it need to be a certain format? blah, blah, blah.

I need more of an outline than a damn deadline....

I did the assignment and felt like shit the whole time cause there was no outline. I felt like it was gonna be wrong no matter what I did cause I can't read her mind.

If you want them to provide their own structure cause it's draining you to figure out everything that needs fixing...then tell them... and let them come up with their own "worst case scenarios."

But you have to be happy with whatever they bring you then, no matter what...and then tell them What and WHY it made you happy. That is how we learn your priorities.

That and everything that [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said. Skylights always has the answer! :)

hmm. no structure huh?

See, from my perspective, its not structure you are looking for, its micromanagement.

I don't have time to give "structure." I have these guys calling me asking me what they're supposed to do. My answer, "Use my gym to start a business of your own."

Perhaps the situation is slightly different. When I tell someone to start a business and they don't know what that means, I get frustrated.
 

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
hmm. no structure huh?

See, from my perspective, its not structure you are looking for, its micromanagement.

I don't have time to give "structure." I have these guys calling me asking me what they're supposed to do. My answer, "Use my gym to start a business of your own."

Perhaps the situation is slightly different. When I tell someone to start a business and they don't know what that means, I get frustrated.

LMAO....I'm sorry...I'm not trying to be a jerk...but I find it funny...cause I don't know what you mean.

Do you mean that whatever they do is gonna be good enough?

How do they know that their vision is your vision?

Do you even have a vision about that particular thing?

If someone was to say to me use my gym to start a business...I would ask them what kind of business? lol...

I feel like as a 6 I go both ways....I can take charge or I can be subordinate.

But it's one or the other...

As an entj I wanna take initiative...but if you were to tell me that....it's like it takes all the initiative away.

Ur putting labels and pressures still...I feel like...(I know its vague -> telling someone to start a business, but there's an underlying pressure a six has that says they gotta do this right)

So what's the right way?

Are you truly saying that there's no mistakes they can make?

If so, tell them that.

Tell them "I want this to be your baby, don't worry about doing anything the wrong way, have fun with it, and make it into something"
 
Top