[Type 9] Slothless-ness

[thoughtlost]

I found this on PerC and I wanted to see if other 9s can relate to this (if other types relate to this too, please let me know). There wasn't a lot of responses on the thread I found it in.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25227&whichpage=1#.UhDyLZJReSo

Here are some exerpts or something that I found interesting.
...Sure, I think this guy was on shrooms and weed... but hey, you never know. It could be us out =P

I've come to the realization that I'm a particular kind of 9 that is not described at all in the literature, which I have given the term "counter-slothic nine." It is exactly as you described. Counter-slothic 9s focus so much on being aware, and fear not being aware of themselves, that they over-indulge in introspection to the point that they actually become asleep to themselves and living their lives. Introspection becomes a substitute for actually living their lives and showing up and drawing attention to themselves.

And I kind of liked this part a lot...

Another element of sloth is that I've maintained an extremely strong connection to the essential realm. I've had deep imitations of the ultimate nature of reality, and the experience on mushrooms revealed to me the ultimate truth of existence, the boundless dimensions, non-duality, quintessence, and the fundamental suchness, oneness, unity, and interconnectivity of the universe. Even though I have these incredibly deep insight into true nature, I'm too lazy to actually live according to my truth. Perhaps this is because I have to fundamentally confront my lack of having a pearl.... the identification that I am not a human being, I am not my body, I am not this existence. I have to confront the nullity of who I am and my entire life, and I'm fundamentally too attached to sex and food and music and movies and video games to realize my true nature. I would prefer to live this relatively comfortable life than to have to face the ultimate pain at the core of my ego. This is a state of complete and utter deficiency - that my soul itself is not good enough to deserve to exist. I don't deserve to be human, I'm not good enough to exist. It is like being the ugliest most wretched being in the universe, with a complete lack of value.

 

[Thursday]

Seems the unhealthy side of the coin. On the upside, it can be the source of wisdom and timing with little heed to unimportant matters. Here is a page dedicated to us 9's : http://similarminds.com/enneagram/type9.html

 

[011235813]

I think this is probably why 9s mistype themselves as 4s. I certainly did it.

I used to consider myself a very introspective person but I've come to realize that I have less self-awareness than I thought I did. I'm most comfortable operating on a happy, instinctual, unheeding level, just engaging my environment and keeping myself busy and doing stuff and not really thinking about much else at all.

Real introspection is painful and I often don't know what to do with the conclusions, which is unpleasant.

 

[gromit]

So basically nines over-analyze themselves and don't live their lives, is that what you're saying?

 

[thoughtlost]

First off: YAY! I was expecting this to be ignored... but that fact that just three people responded... is like I become God lol jkjk... ahem *seriousface*
[MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] ...

So basically nines over-analyze themselves and don't live their lives, is that what you're saying?

It's not what I am saying. I haven't studied enough to have a firm idea on what a nine is, but I can see that as a logical explanation of what it means to be a nine. If it's not what nines can do... then what types do that?

 

[thoughtlost]

Seems the unhealthy side of the coin. On the upside, it can be the source of wisdom and timing with little heed to unimportant matters. Here is a page dedicated to us 9's : http://similarminds.com/enneagram/type9.html

...Yeah, I've been to that website a lot (...well, I've never seen that description before but I use to take enneagram tests... I always get nine no matter what =P)
But do you think that the description is somehow enough to encompass all that a nine could be?

 

[thoughtlost]

I think this is probably why 9s mistype themselves as 4s. I certainly did it.

I used to consider myself a very introspective person but I've come to realize that I have less self-awareness than I thought I did. I'm most comfortable operating on a happy, instinctual, unheeding level, just engaging my environment and keeping myself busy and doing stuff and not really thinking about much else at all.

Real introspection is painful and I often don't know what to do with the conclusions, which is unpleasant.

awh ...that made me sad lol.

But you're right, especially about mistyping.

What makes you think you have less self-awareness compared to a four (or any other type)? Also, what aspects of you made you think you were a four, if you don't mind?

 

[gromit]

First off: YAY! I was expecting this to be ignored... but that fact that just three people responded... is like I become God lol jkjk... ahem *seriousface*
[MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] ...


It's not what I am saying. I haven't studied enough to have a firm idea on what a nine is, but I can see that as a logical explanation of what it means to be a nine. If it's not what nines can do... then what types do that?

I wouldn't say that what I wrote before as the definition of a nine. I could see maybe a nine doing it, but it doesn't really seem like the defining characteristic. I think of nines as wanting things to be happy and easy, avoiding conflict as a general rule.
[MENTION=3216]Thursday[/MENTION]'s link seems pretty straight-on.

 

[011235813]

awh ...that made me sad lol.

But you're right, especially about mistyping.

What makes you think you have less self-awareness compared to a four (or any other type)?

I have a hard time recognizing when I'm upset. Other people often have to point out that I seem angry or sad before I fully grasp it myself and go, "Oh, you know what, you're right." And then, once I've done that, I have to figure out what's making me feel out of sorts, which can also be difficult because I'm always unconsciously at work on making things right between me and the world.

This doesn't apply to very severe situations which pose direct threats to something I hold dear, just kind of the ordinary everyday stuff that I don't really notice but gets me down after a while.

 

[Thursday]

If you ever think that us 9s are harmless and this sloth is at all tied to impudence, you're right. However, once we develop a rhythm, we are not so soft. You ever try to dissuade a mountain? Peaceful and calming, yet imposing. There's this African proverb that I think is apt : "It is the calm and silent water that drowns a man." Not to say that repressed rage is psychotic, but if you apply it accordingly, HARMONIOUSLY, you get things done with little fan fare. Much like a ninja or something as quiet and deadly.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

I generally like this. At least it explains why I generally feel sort of cold over the "connecting to people" thing, despite the fact that it's incredibly difficult for me to feel that I have an actual connection to them because how can something that doesn't exist connect to anything. I don't think that nines actually make very deep connections to other people, unless they are at a good level of health. It also conveniently explains how I am actually a social type, as I focus quite a lot on examining the reasoning behind my various political ideology, and why I can spend about 6 hours a day in a chatroom (at a minimum). Despite the fact that I don't really have a lot of close friends and associates, and that I don't really have a large network of people on my finger tips to control.

But yeah, I've always been obsessed with searching for "who I was" and such. I kept asking other people details about my personal life, because describing myself just comes up with a rather large blank.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Thanks for this, an interesting read:

Nine: Hyperactivity
The passion of Nines is sloth and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of activity. Nines are then hyperactive, perpetually agitated and overloaded with tasks. Although they often produce quantities of work effectively, idleness is still present: these activities are practical but have the effect that the more Nines do, the more they forget themselves. This counterpassion is one of the first we observed, and we interpreted it at the time that these Nines use work and activities as a means of narcotisation (their principal defense mechanism).
An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.​

I do relate to that, esp in my twenties and thirties.

 

[Avocado]

Thanks for this, an interesting read:

Nine: Hyperactivity
The passion of Nines is sloth and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of activity. Nines are then hyperactive, perpetually agitated and overloaded with tasks. Although they often produce quantities of work effectively, idleness is still present: these activities are practical but have the effect that the more Nines do, the more they forget themselves. This counterpassion is one of the first we observed, and we interpreted it at the time that these Nines use work and activities as a means of narcotisation (their principal defense mechanism).
An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.​

I do relate to that, esp in my twenties and thirties.

I enjoy peace and serenity…
…though I get little of it…

I look forward to teaching…
…though the summers off will be just as sweet…

 

[Stansmith]

9s are a really diverse bunch in this respect. I've met some who were fairly productive and career-oriented, and others who were vagabonds or vegetable-esque.

9-sloth is usually more like tuning out the impact of their own internal reactions to things instead of physical sloth. They're always 'okay', unless they're under excessive stress (disintegration to 6).

 

[brainheart]

9s are a really diverse bunch in this respect. I've met some who were fairly productive and career-oriented, and others who were vagabonds or vegetable-esque.

9-sloth is usually more like tuning out the impact of their own internal reactions to things instead of physical sloth. They're always 'okay', unless they're under excessive stress (disintegration to 6).

Yeah, it's supposed to be a laziness when it comes to personal desires, a lack of inwardness. That's why Naranjo considers them to be the most extroverted type, and why nines are seen as easy going/ go with the flow. There's an overadaptability to others. That's why there are a lot of nine politicians.

That said, I think this is more of a social nine characteristic. I think self pres nines will focus more on inner comfort/desires, and I think depending on the mbti of the nine, this will vary widely. The sexual nine will do what the social nine does but on more of a smaller scale, overadapting to the needs of the partner.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

Self-preservation Nine: Appetite
The focus for a Self-preservation Nine is on satisfying his appetites and hungers. His laziness, in the sense that we have defined it as the passion, manifests here in the substitution of the nonessential satisfactions for those that he really needs. At the deepest level, this shows up in substituting material gratifications for those that are really spiritual. An example on a more superficial level of this substitution of the nonessential would be eating a chocolate bar when what he really needs is a nourishing meal. Also, as the word appetite suggests, Self-preservation Nines tend to overindulge, ingesting and acquiring far more than they actually need out of insecurity about receiving sustenance.

Appetite - bigger bodies, bigger appetites. Excessive creature likeness, I eat therefore I am, I have therefore I am, I sleep therefore I am, I'm standing here therefore I am, all the ordinary facts of life get in the way of a more metaphysical level, the question of being in a way that it's erased.

Maybe the "overly introspective 9" is actually just a different form of the SP 9? I think this is what they were going with here actually. I thought at first that it was about actual food and material things, but in reality I don't think that form of 9 is really common.

 

[chubber]

sloth sounds like the unhealthy version of E9

 

[Kasper]

Maybe the "overly introspective 9" is actually just a different form of the SP 9? I think this is what they were going with here actually. I thought at first that it was about actual food and material things, but in reality I don't think that form of 9 is really common.

Doubt it. I expect most 9s on a site like this are more introspective than texts would suggest, at the least those who use things like Enneagram to find out more about themselves. What is the point of Enneagram if not a tool for greater introspection and self awareness, and why would a 9 who isn't interested in those things delve into it much?

I don't like the term counter-sloth, as I see it as all part of the same thing, 9s can numb by shutting everything out, and they can also do it by introspecting without taking any action, to an outsider they can look like the same thing.

The trap for 9s is using introspection as yet another distraction from what needs to be done, it can become a search for the deeper answer, a more real truth, a simpler answer, because once that is found things will just work better with minimal exertion, it can all be a delaying tactic from taking action and disrupting ones comfort zone.

Personally I've never understood or even bought the claim that 9s aren't introspective, we're just prone to being intellectually lazy with what and how we introspect. We are apt to do nothing with it.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Thanks for this, an interesting read:

Nine: Hyperactivity
The passion of Nines is sloth and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of activity. Nines are then hyperactive, perpetually agitated and overloaded with tasks. Although they often produce quantities of work effectively, idleness is still present: these activities are practical but have the effect that the more Nines do, the more they forget themselves. This counterpassion is one of the first we observed, and we interpreted it at the time that these Nines use work and activities as a means of narcotisation (their principal defense mechanism).
An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.​

I do relate to that, esp in my twenties and thirties.

This is interesting...

 

[Udog]

An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.[/INDENT]

This is spot on. I came to this realization about 2-2.5 years ago, when I put a chunk of my self-help books on my bed and took a picture of them all.

I won't say that I didn't change anything, but my focus on self-help and awareness was a distraction from actually making changes.