[Type 4] need for ego boosts: Do all 4's take offense to this?

[Evo]

The E4 I work with seems to take other peoples' actions personally.

Such as another person making the company look bad

Or

A supervisor needing an ego boost or taking credit where it's not deserved

Actually she takes that personally the most....when other people take credit for things they may not have done...

(I mean I guess that petty shit used to bother me when I had a soul

But after working retail...your soul disappears...)j/k lol

I never took it THAT seriously though...And I don't even notice it now...I've got way too much shit going on to care....

Why does she care so much?

 

[21%]

I can identify with your friend's behavior. I'm the same way when I see something I perceive as 'unjust'. I feel like it's a bit of E1 tendencies coming through. I use the term 'righteous anger'. People say I overreact to things that are not even about me, but I feel like I'm compromising my values if I just let things slide.

When people take credit for things they didn't do, I guess it feels immoral and inauthentic. When people get away with it, I feel like the world that tolerates such behaviors is fake and ugly. Personally, taking credit for something is not that big a thing for me. I am more sensitive to things like arrogance, cruelty, or indirect abuse.

 

[Evo]

I can identify with your friend's behavior. I'm the same way when I see something I perceive as 'unjust'. I feel like it's a bit of E1 tendencies coming through. I use the term 'righteous anger'. People say I overreact to things that are not even about me, but I feel like I'm compromising my values if I just let things slide.

When people take credit for things they didn't do, I guess it feels immoral and inauthentic. When people get away with it, I feel like the world that tolerates such behaviors is fake and ugly. Personally, taking credit for something is not that big a thing for me. I am more sensitive to things like arrogance, cruelty, or indirect abuse.

So is it like it makes it disheartening to live in a world like that?

I'm just trying to understand the depth of where her emotion is coming from...

I also don't know what you mean by arrogance.

Do you mean some that comes up to a counter and says their "title" Like "my name is DOCTOR Joe remedy"

She does not think that they need to tell her that they're a doctor.

Is that what you mean by arrogance?

I find her personality interesting.

That stuff does not bother me.

Now cruelty...I mean...again I don't know if I'm all the appalled by it cause I think it just happens...maybe I need some examples of the situation with cruelty and indirect abuse.

Or does it go back to living in such an unjust disheartening world?

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Usually, 4s take things personally that reflect on them personally. (Like f'rinstance, I've been known to read comments online and feel like shit about myself despite the fact that the comments weren't directed towards me, and I rationally know that.) I'm a bit surprised to read about your friend, actually. But I'll chip in anyway.

Such as another person making the company look bad

Well, I personally wouldn't be upset by this, because I don't drawn any sense of identity from my workplace. Actually, I'm first in line to slam everything that's stupid about it.

If I cared a lot, it might annoy me somewhat, though, on the whole, this doesn't sound much like my style.

A supervisor needing an ego boost or taking credit where it's not deserved

That might annoy me. You know, that's a kind of shitty thing to do, and pathetic. Especially if it comes at the expense of someone who actually deserves the credit. For the most part, it seems like a relatively minor thing, though, that I'm liable to be apathetic to (I'm assuming he didn't take credit for completing an entire project or something). I'm personally not vested enough in my work to do anything more than mock people, laugh at the absurdity, and go home.

Your friend might have felt that way because it's inauthentic behavior, or because of the anti-corruption sentiments brought about by the 1-connection. It could also have offended her sense of interpersonal propriety, if she's a strong Fe-user. That's my best guess.

(I mean I guess that petty shit used to bother me when I had a soul

But after working retail...your soul disappears...)j/k lol

LOL. I have certainly changed from my time in retail as well.

Usually I don't get as upset about things as you've indicated your friend does, but I have had my moments. For me, I tend to freak out about discrepencies in justice. I hate reading the crime page sometimes, because there's a blatant trend towards the rich getting away with things the poor don't; men getting away with things women don't; and etc etc etc.

The thing about fours is, we're just sensitive to stuff. That's prolly what it is in your friend's case.

 

[21%]

So is it like it makes it disheartening to live in a world like that?

I'm just trying to understand the depth of where her emotion is coming from...

I also don't know what you mean by arrogance.

Do you mean some that comes up to a counter and says their "title" Like "my name is DOCTOR Joe remedy"

She does not think that they need to tell her that they're a doctor.

Is that what you mean by arrogance?

I find her personality interesting.

That stuff does not bother me.

Now cruelty...I mean...again I don't know if I'm all the appalled by it cause I think it just happens...maybe I need some examples of the situation with cruelty and indirect abuse.

Or does it go back to living in such an unjust disheartening world?

I can only speak for myself, but I am highly idealistic. I know the world is imperfect, but I strongly believe that since we're in this together, we should be striving for better things. It's like, when I see something unjust, I am just sorely disappointed in humanity. It makes me angry that people aren't trying.

Arrogance is probably a personal thing. I hate it when people try to make themselves feel better by putting others down. The "Doctor..." thing would probably bother me a little as well, because I will be thinking why they are so insecure about their own worth that they need other people to know their 'title' to gain respect.

Cruelty is probably very clear, but can come in the form of indirect abuse, and I think all those 'gaslighting' (invalidating other people's feelings to brush over their issues, for example, as in "Jeez. I only meant it as a joke. You're so goddamn sensitive. Get a grip on yourself.") is a form of abuse. I believe it comes from the lack of compassion for your fellow human beings. When it happens in intimate relationships, I find it very disturbing.

Not sure if it all makes sense. I think my version at least has a lot to do with Fe (social harmony, be nice to other people, etc.) as well. But these things can also be a personal Fi value for some people.

 

[Amargith]

I can only speak for myself, but I am highly idealistic. I know the world is imperfect, but I strongly believe that since we're in this together, we should be striving for better things. It's like, when I see something unjust, I am just sorely disappointed in humanity. It makes me angry that people aren't trying.

Arrogance is probably a personal thing. I hate it when people try to make themselves feel better by putting others down. The "Doctor..." thing would probably bother me a little as well, because I will be thinking why they are so insecure about their own worth that they need other people to know their 'title' to gain respect.

Cruelty is probably very clear, but can come in the form of indirect abuse, and I think all those 'gaslighting' (invalidating other people's feelings to brush over their issues, for example, as in "Jeez. I only meant it as a joke. You're so goddamn sensitive. Get a grip on yourself.") is a form of abuse. I believe it comes from the lack of compassion for your fellow human beings. When it happens in intimate relationships, I find it very disturbing.

Not sure if it all makes sense. I think my version at least has a lot to do with Fe (social harmony, be nice to other people, etc.) as well. But these things can also be a personal Fi value for some people.

As an Fi-person, I approve of this message


Im less offended by the world nowadays, though in my darker moments, it still gets to me. Yes, it is tiring to live in a world that non-stop disappoints you. I think one of the curses of being a 4 is...well, you see the emotional side of things, as well as the creative potential the world holds. For the longest time, before I understood that not everyone experiences the world the way I do, I could not for the life of me fathom why people would hurt each other non-stop as it made me cringe even when I wasn't the perpetrator or victim. It's about the world 'feeling' wrong because the potential for beauty it holds gets non-stop ruined by everyone in it. And that beauty ideal is in essence a golden ratio for the planet.

It took realising other people had other priorities and often weren't aware of the emotional impact they are having on others, as well as understanding the effect overwhelming dark emotions can have on people that aren't even aware of that effect to understand that..well we are in a continual creation process. Non-stop editing. The first draft of a novel is often unreadable. But since people are non-stop being born and subjected to their 'first draft' of life, the world will forever be in an editing phase so to speak. And it is the process, the flaws, the things we learn along the way that make this world vibrant, dynamic and in its own way beautiful.

On top of that, I discovered that they in their own way are often doing their own editing and maximising of what they prioritise in the world, that my pov was just a piece of the puzzle.

I still strive to minimise the (senseless) suffering of any living being, to do as much editing as I can in this world while I'm here. But I'm no longer looking for it to be a perfect product - it never will be finished. It is perfect in the way that it is dynamic.

 

[Typh0n]

The E4 I work with seems to take other peoples' actions personally.

Such as another person making the company look bad

Or

A supervisor needing an ego boost or taking credit where it's not deserved

Actually she takes that personally the most....when other people take credit for things they may not have done...

(I mean I guess that petty shit used to bother me when I had a soul

But after working retail...your soul disappears...)j/k lol

I never took it THAT seriously though...And I don't even notice it now...I've got way too much shit going on to care....

Why does she care so much?

What are you talking about I dont...understand.

 

[Evo]

As an Fi-person, I approve of this message


Im less offended by the world nowadays, though in my darker moments, it still gets to me. Yes, it is tiring to live in a world that non-stop disappoints you. I think one of the curses of being a 4 is...well, you see the emotional side of things, as well as the creative potential the world holds. For the longest time, before I understood that not everyone experiences the world the way I do, I could not for the life of me fathom why people would hurt each other non-stop as it made me cringe even when I wasn't the perpetrator or victim. It's about the world 'feeling' wrong because the potential for beauty it holds gets non-stop ruined by everyone in it. And that beauty ideal is in essence a golden ratio for the planet.

It took realising other people had other priorities and often weren't aware of the emotional impact they are having on others, as well as understanding the effect overwhelming dark emotions can have on people that aren't even aware of that effect to understand that..well we are in a continual creation process. Non-stop editing. The first draft of a novel is often unreadable. But since people are non-stop being born and subjected to their 'first draft' of life, the world will forever be in an editing phase so to speak. And it is the process, the flaws, the things we learn along the way that make this world vibrant, dynamic and in its own way beautiful.

On top of that, I discovered that they in their own way are often doing their own editing and maximising of what they prioritise in the world, that my pov was just a piece of the puzzle.

I still strive to minimise the (senseless) suffering of any living being, to do as much editing as I can in this world while I'm here. But I'm no longer looking for it to be a perfect product - it never will be finished. It is perfect in the way that it is dynamic.

Yea, I guess I've come to the same conclusion...

Just a long time ago

I used to be sensitivie to this stuff...see other people take advantage of the other (like taking credit where it's not deserved)

But now I kind of think of it in the terms ur talking about.

As if we are in a world this is beautiful because of the contrast that it inevitably makes.

And though I may try to produce the least amount of contrast myself, I can't control others.

So the contrast is forever and always...maybe it just takes others time to awaken to the fact that they're creating contrast...

I will talk to her in the terms of "editing" as you put it...I like that

Thank you all for your responses

I just sometimes feel like she's putting her happiness in other peoples hands...and I don't think that the way to go about getting happiness, you know?

 

[Evo]

What are you talking about I dont...understand.

I was asking why she is taking others actions personally

For some reason other peoples indirect actions are causing a strong emotion in her.

 

[iwakar]

There are a lot of problems that come with being socially aware and emotionally invested (to varying degrees) in the welfare of others, but ultimately I think it's a good thing --so long as you don't let it defeat your spirit. We all are operating with different levels of personal reserves and situational awareness, so it's natural that our boundaries in regards to others and letting their personal shit influence our own personal shit vary considerably and necessarily.

I want to add that it is ordinary for a person to care when their own credibility is damaged or usurped, but extraordinary when a person manages to care that it happens to others, especially in such a busy world. (But the world has always been busy, as well as all of the people in it.) Sometimes it moves us to act, too. Ironically, I think E4s are more likely to get keyed up and act in defense of other's well-being getting trampled rather than their own. It can be a catalyst to improve everyone's lot in life when we can identify with our fellow downtroddens.

 

[Typh0n]

I was asking why she is taking others actions personally

For some reason other peoples indirect actions are causing a strong emotion in her.

Ok, I just didnt understand the examples given, or what they had in common.

In answer to your question, as a four myself, I do not take people's actions that personally. Im only bothered by anything that affects me personally, not by peoples actions that have no direct connection to me.

There are a lot of problems that come with being socially aware and emotionally invested (to varying degrees) in the welfare of others, but ultimately I think it's a good thing --so long as you don't let it defeat your spirit. We all are operating with different levels of personal reserves and situational awareness, so it's natural that our boundaries in regards to others and letting their personal shit influence our own personal shit vary considerably and necessarily.

I want to add that it is ordinary for a person to care when their own credibility is damaged or usurped, but extraordinary when a person manages to care that it happens to others, especially in such a busy world. (But the world has always been busy, as well as all of the people in it.) Sometimes it moves us to act, too. Ironically, I think E4s are more likely to get keyed up and act in defense of other's well-being getting trampled rather than their own. It can be a catalyst to improve everyone's lot in life when we can identify with our fellow downtroddens.

I dont see this as specifically as four thing. It seems eights would take justice more personally, especially when integrated. The only time I could see it as worthwhile to protest against anything that is unjust against someone other than me or my loved ones is if Im in a position to enforce rules. Then it is my duty. But I have to draw the line somewhere, or else Id get exchausted from trying to save the world. It would be nice to rescue everyone, but can only do so much. Saving strangers would exhaust me.

 

[iwakar]

I dont see this as specifically as four thing. It seems eights would take justice more personally, especially when integrated. The only time I could see it as worthwhile to protest against anything that is unjust against someone other than me or my loved ones is if Im in a position to enforce rules. Then it is my duty. But I have to draw the line somewhere, or else Id get exchausted from trying to save the world. It would be nice to rescue everyone, but can only do so much. Saving strangers would exhaust me.

It is important to make a distinction between caring for others and acting on their behalf. I am not saying that 4s frequently act on other's behalf. (No doubt we would see interesting sub-trends when pairing E4 with MBTI.) I am saying that I see a trend in them recognizing injustice and verbalizing that observation because 4s don't stomach sugar-coating or glossing-over very well. I am also saying that caring for others may lead to action.

I find it interesting that you haven't had that experience though. I've encountered it frequently with fellow 4s that I have met from this forum and befriended in real life over the years. I chalked it up to the shared drive for authenticity.

 

[Evo]

It is important to make a distinction between caring for others and acting on their behalf. I am not saying that 4s frequently act on other's behalf. (No doubt we would see interesting sub-trends when pairing E4 with MBTI.) I am saying that I see a trend in them recognizing injustice and verbalizing that observation because 4s don't stomach sugar-coating or glossing-over very well. I am also saying that caring for others may lead to action.

I find it interesting that you haven't had that experience though. I've encountered it frequently with fellow 4s that I have met from this forum and befriended in real life over the years. I chalked it up to the shared drive for authenticity.

Can you eloborate on the bold.

I'm not sure I'm understanding why this kinda stuff has to do with authenticity....hmmm

 

[Typh0n]

It is important to make a distinction between caring for others and acting on their behalf. I am not saying that 4s frequently act on other's behalf. (No doubt we would see interesting sub-trends when pairing E4 with MBTI.) I am saying that I see a trend in them recognizing injustice and verbalizing that observation because 4s don't stomach sugar-coating or glossing-over very well. I am also saying that caring for others may lead to action.

I find it interesting that you haven't had that experience though. I've encountered it frequently with fellow 4s that I have met from this forum and befriended in real life over the years. I chalked it up to the shared drive for authenticity.

Im not quiet sure I can really imagine the examples given, since [MENTION=14015]Inari Love[/MENTION] gave so little information. I have a problem with people acting in a way that is inauthetic, sure, but is that wat she was even talking about? I cant tell.

Can you eloborate on the bold.

I'm not sure I'm understanding why this kinda stuff has to do with authenticity....hmmm

Maybe the first example making the company look bad has nothing to do with it but the second - to take credit for something someone else did seems fake and inauthentic. Whoever it was doesnt deserve that credit, so its fake credit and not deserved.

 

[Evo]

Im not quiet sure I can really imagine the examples given, since [MENTION=14015]Inari Love[/MENTION] gave so little information. I have a problem with people acting in a way that is inauthetic, sure, but is that wat she was even talking about? I cant tell.




Maybe the first example making the company look bad has nothing to do with it but the second - to take credit for something someone else did seems fake and inauthentic. Whoever it was doesnt deserve that credit, so its fake credit and not deserved.

She cares about things such as a person throwing out a their title in a conversation.( as if it's an ego boost or something.) Like random people will call us up and they have to give their name....and she notices when people give their "title"....Where I don't even notice...and it offends her...she thinks they're trying to 1 up her or something when they say they are doctor so and so...or I have a PHD in blah blah blah....

I just barely notice that stuff.

Also an example of making the company look bad is that there is this guy named mike that is...well aggressive when dealing with customers. He trys very hard to get their money...well cause...their money means he's going to get money...So he is upfront and in their face trying to be aggressively friendly to get tips and shit.

She hates this. She thinks it looks bad on the company.

I have a much different perspective. I think he's just doing his job, and as long as the customers don't think he looks greedy then I don't care. We have some people that do that job that barely help the customers when they actually need it. ugh. I get more upset when someone is NOT doing their job than when someone is aggressively doing their job.

So really I would not like if Mike broke a rule....but in my eyes he hasn't really. He maybe could be a little bit more tactful...

But she thinks is looks bad for the whole company...and takes it like it's looking bad on her. She takes the other person's actions personally. And I would say that's indirect action.

I get annoyed when people break a rule...and even then...it's only when it's a rule I care about.

But she's upset cause she thinks he looks like a money grubbing A-hole



Thanks for clarifying that...again...I keep looking at the situations and I don't see that it's HER taking credit for someone else's work....nor is the person taking HER work for credit.

I just wasn't seeing why SHE was being inauthentic...but now I see that SHE doesn't necessarily have to be the person in the equation to be offended.

 

[Typh0n]

She cares about things such as a person throwing out a their title in a conversation.( as if it's an ego boost or something.) Like random people will call us up and they have to give their name....and she notices when people give their "title"....Where I don't even notice...and it offends her...she thinks they're trying to 1 up her or something when they say they are doctor so and so...or I have a PHD in blah blah blah....

I just barely notice that stuff.

Also an example of making the company look bad is that there is this guy named mike that is...well aggressive when dealing with customers. He trys very hard to get their money...well cause...their money means he's going to get money...So he is upfront and in their face trying to be aggressively friendly to get tips and shit.

She hates this. She thinks it looks bad on the company.

I have a much different perspective. I think he's just doing his job, and as long as the customers don't think he looks greedy then I don't care. We have some people that do that job that barely help the customers when they actually need it. ugh. I get more upset when someone is NOT doing their job than when someone is aggressively doing their job.

So really I would not like if Mike broke a rule....but in my eyes he hasn't really. He maybe could be a little bit more tactful...

But she thinks is looks bad for the whole company...and takes it like it's looking bad on her. She takes the other person's actions personally. And I would say that's indirect action.

I get annoyed when people break a rule...and even then...it's only when it's a rule I care about.

But she's upset cause she thinks he looks like a money grubbing A-hole



Thanks for clarifying that...again...I keep looking at the situations and I don't see that it's HER taking credit for someone else's work....nor is the person taking HER work for credit.

I just wasn't seeing why SHE was being inauthentic...but now I see that SHE doesn't necessarily have to be the person in the equation to be offended.

Yeah, ok, thanks for clarifying the examples!

The first example you gave then, with Mike being agressive...that would bother me only in the sense the behavior seems faked. I wouldnt have a problem with him being aggressive, so long as hes not attacking people, which from what you stated it doesnt seem he is. Its not the aggression, just the fact the agression seems feigned.

You seem like you are judging behaviors from the standpoint of their expendiency/efficeincy, whereas shes sees something more personal.

 

[Evo]

Yeah, ok, thanks for clarifying the examples!

The first example you gave then, with Mike being agressive...that would bother me only in the sense the behavior seems faked. I wouldnt have a problem with him being aggressive, so long as hes not attacking people, which from what you stated it doesnt seem he is. Its not the aggression, just the fact the agression seems feigned.

You seem like you are judging behaviors from the standpoint of their expendiency/efficeincy, whereas shes sees something more personal.

Hmm, yea... I dunno.

Well...he IS pretending to get more money...I mean...I think we are all pretending though ( I don't pretend to get more money though...I pretend to make the damn conversation with a customer go more smooth)lol

It's what you have to do in customer service. We meet a buncha people we have a 30 second to 5 minute interaction with them and with in that interaction we are playing a role. In a way that's pretending...she knows I pretend...and she doesn't find me inauthentic...hmmm...

I think that Mike is a fake guy though...in general lmao...so it's gonna spill into whatever he's doing. He seems fake with every interaction he has...He reminds me of "a playa" lol

To me "a playa" is fake. There is some person inside them that is really insecure but on the outside...they are trying to get every girl

(even when they HAVE a gf....which Mike does lol)

So maybe she is seeing him bring that fakeness to the job?

 

[Typh0n]

Hmm, yea... I dunno.

Well...he IS pretending to get more money...I mean...I think we are all pretending though ( I don't pretend to get more money though...I pretend to make the damn conversation with a customer go more smooth)lol

It's what you have to do in customer service. We meet a buncha people we have a 30 second to 5 minute interaction with them and with in that interaction we are playing a role. In a way that's pretending...she knows I pretend...and she doesn't find me inauthentic...hmmm...

I think that Mike is a fake guy though...in general lmao...so it's gonna spill into whatever he's doing. He seems fake with every interaction he has...He reminds me of "a playa" lol

To me "a playa" is fake. There is some person inside them that is really insecure but on the outside...they are trying to get every girl

(even when they HAVE a gf....which Mike does lol)

So maybe she is seeing him bring that fakeness to the job?

I dont think I could ever work in customer service. I value being authentic and sincere with people, it would make me sick at least how you describe it.

As far as Mike being a fake guy...I would tend to see "thats how he is" in his fakeness. Is he a 3W2?

 

[Evo]

I dont think I could ever work in customer service. I value being authentic and sincere with people, it would make me sick at least how you describe it.

As far as Mike being a fake guy...I would tend to see "thats how he is" in his fakeness. Is he a 3W2?

Yea it sucks lol.

I find a lot of things that so doms do is fake though...so my perception is very different from most people lol no offense if anyone's so dom...I don't hate them...I just find social habits to be wierd...and most people are so dominant or have it as a second in thier stacking.

I find doing the stupid steps involved in say freggin hello to be rediculous...Until I worked in customer service I didn't say hello at anyone I saw on the street...nor did I even look at them or smile...I just don't think that step is necessary

Now I do it out of habit...and in a way I still find it to be fake. (I of course don't look like I'm faking it though, and I try to really be concerned when I say "Hey how are you" but it's silly sounding if I don't know you...imo)

The bottom line in my eyes is...I would not be talking to these people if it wasn't my job.

Therefore when I say "hi how can I help you" and I really just wanna sit the hell down and stare at a wall...In that sense its me being fake. <----Is that fake in your opinion? I genuinely don't know the line anymore tbh...

So yes it corrupts ur soul...don't do it!

And Mike, yea I mean he is aggressive and maybe fake...but that's how I see him as. lol He's just being himself lol

He probably is a 3w2 now that I think of it. So/sx prolly. Now that I think about it! thanks!

 

[OrangeAppled]

Such as another person making the company look bad

I'm probably the one making the company look bad - muwahahahahaaaaaaa!

A supervisor needing an ego boost or taking credit where it's not deserved

Actually she takes that personally the most....when other people take credit for things they may not have done...

Only if they take credit for what I personally did, or if a friend complained of it & I was empathizing with them.

I can relate a bit to what [MENTION=6971]21%[/MENTION] notes about 1 integration & how it shows at average levels.... but I still tend to experience the righteous indignation in more personal aspects of morality. I don't tend to have little pet peeves that much. I would get more angry about emotionally invalidating someone, or something like that. Breaking policies & rules or making some business look bad means very little to me. 4s don't really connect their identity to external entities like that.

Your friend actually sounds more like an actual 1, or maybe another 6 (such loyalty reminds me of a phobic 6 acting counter-phobic in the face of a threat).

The ego boost thing only bothers me in people when they only connect with/appreciate people who are boosting their ego. It tends to sadden me though, leaving me with a feeling that people never really know or love anyone for who they are, that's it all just egos playing off one another.

It may bug me a bit when people use status to assert some kind of superiority that goes beyond the role their status stems from. Someone using their title doesn't bother me at all. Someone asserting it makes them better in general than other people might annoy me. This is mainly true when it comes to morality or intelligence or things I feel status cannot measure (internal qualities, perhaps).