[Type 6] I Just Had An Epiphany About Being a Counterphobic 6 Who Is Not An SJ

[Entropic]

I agree with regards to the spelling which is why it is something that has always annoyed me about my own typing.

You accused me of being logically fallacious. And because I feel any straightforward reading of my posts in this thread would/should render that kind of accusation absurd (I even state that my ideas are controversial...as in...'I would be super surprised if anyone shared my opinion')...

Why is it absurd for me to propose that I do not agree with the logic which your argument is founded upon? I have absolutely no problem taking part of controversial ideas. In fact, I'd argue I can myself be rather controversial with regards to my own thinking, but being controversial doesn't mean it cannot be logical and vice versa. Nor does it mean that a controversial idea is automatically logical just because it's controversial.

my mind automatically starts to account for why you would arrive at such a conclusion.

Then let me reformulate myself again:
You claim that 6s are of more value to society than 5s, and I point out that this is not true. 5s and 6s both contribute to society, but the way they do so is fundamentally different. Just because you cannot appreciate the way the 5 operates and what kind of use they bring to society, it does not mean they are in fact useless. That's personal bias on your part, and a statement I cannot agree with.

To support this argument, I mention that many 5s have helped to achieve societal progress in various fields, sciences and philosophy being the two fields I cited, although type 5s are of course not limited to these fields only. The thoughts presented by 5s have in turn helped us to further our understaning of how the universe operates at large, which has bi-effects such as improving the living standards we for instance see today.

In summary, just because you cannot always visibly and tangibly see the results of type 5's knowledge-seek, it doesn't mean it's not there or that it doesn't contribute.

Most often when I see this kind of misunderstanding occur it is because the other person has some sort of stake in the matter.

And what stake would that be?

And is moved to act rather than seek clarification by an emotional response that 'stake' creates within them.

Such as?

While I cannot be certain...I certainly cannot rule out that that is what happened with you.

Seeing that your comment specifically referenced e5s...it appeared to me that you may have been insulted in that regard.

Perhaps, but even if this is true, how does it invalidate the primary argument I'm raising against you? For the record, I would have argued exactly the same point had you said that type 9 is better than type 3, or type 2 better than type 1. No type is better than the other. They are simply different. My argument applies beyond type labels.

Which if this is so I completely understand. If you find my opinion offensive...browse the site. I have been here for some time and for every 1 semi-negative opinion held against an e5...I'm quite certain you will find 1,936,458,023 wholly-negative opinions held against e7s. None of this, however, magically turns my opinion into something that is logically fallacious.

I fail to see the validity of this argument. Just because others have made the same fallacious claim it doesn't mean it's suddenly logically correct. Stating that it is correct is by itself a logical fallacy which specifically falls under the appeal to popularity.

Speaking of logical fallacy though...
Did you know that only 1 out of every 10 INTJs recognizes that they are, in fact, 6w5 as opposed to 5w4 or 5w6? Do you know why this is? I do.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with logic or logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are specific errors of reasoning, and for instance mistyping your enneatype core has nothing to do with logic. That has to do with self-awareness and understanding of theory. Yes, you need to apply some kind of reasoning process in order to understand yourself and properly apply the theory to understand yourself, but this doesn't mean that mistyping means your logic was flawed. It could equally indicate lack of information at the time.

Anyway, do share why you think 1/10 INTJs mistype as 5s when they are 6s. I think in fact most people who type as INTJs to begin with aren't INTJs but an entirely different type all together for most of the part. The most common mistype seem to be Si dominants who mistype themselves as Ni dominants because they do not understand the differences between Si and Ni. Then you have INFJs who perceive themselves as Thinkers so they mistype themselves as such.

I also think most people who type as type 5 are incorrectly typed, as there seems to be a general misunderstanding of how type 5 operates and what type 5 is about.

But that's of course, my personal opinion on the matter. See, I have absolutely no problem being controversial. If you will challenge me on my claims, I will however back it up with logic.

 

[Mal12345]

A lot of the 6 descriptions make the healthiest levels of E6 sound kind of hokey and dull and conservative, which probably means that a lot of counterphobic or even just non-Si type 6s feel a kind of revulsion toward some of the descriptions.

GAH! Riso's system makes your type out to be heroic at the healthy levels. "Belief in self leads to true courage, positive thinking, leadership, and rich self-expression."

Which descriptions are you talking about anyway?

 

[Starry]

Why is it absurd for me to propose that I do not agree with the logic which your argument is founded upon?

*heavy sigh*
I guess I need you to decide on what I'm doing first because this back and forth is becoming tiresome. Am I making an argument or am I sharing my opinion?
If I was presenting an argument in an attempt to persuade an audience to take-on as their own the conclusions/beliefs I had arrived at using scientific data and analysis... then no. I wouldn't find this absurd. I would be expecting it.

The reason I find this absurd is due to the fact I am, quite openly, taking a whole bunch of info that I have collected and stored in my mind over the years (concerning all enneagram types mind you - not just e5). I am admittedly NOT subjecting any of that non-scientifically obtained data to any kind of scientific analysis... sharing a personal opinion based on my own values...and finally, I'm NOT asking others to take-on my beliefs as their own.

Now, are you honestly questioning why I keep making reference to the word 'stake' - as in you are truly unable to comprehend why it would seem to me you have some sort of an emotional investment somehow? Because that is so difficult for me to wrap my brain around and now, on top of everything else that doesn't quite add up, I'm left to wonder if I was in fact right all along and this is why you are putting me and this thread through this process. Because I believe this now qualifies as a derailment.

I'm willing to do this little dance though if you wish. I just need you to honestly answer this question so the reason I'm being made to jump through these hoops makes sense to me... Why? If there is no emotional investment then why does one person's opinion on the internet inspire you so? I have other opinions as well. That one I said earlier about INTJs...yah that wasn't really much of a joke tbh...that's in the fast-lane towards becoming a bona fide opinion of mine as each day here passes. I also love it when it snows like crazy...but you don't need to go anywhere...and you are all warm inside drinking hot chocolate. Oh. And I've never been a fan of eating raw fish or green peppers although I do like the yellow and orange ones. I love Christmas and I hate public restrooms. <--Now would you like to challenge the logic I utilized to arrive at all of those opinions as well? Why this opinion LeaT? What is the purpose?

Then let me reformulate myself again:
You claim that 6s are of more value to society than 5s, and I point out that this is not true. 5s and 6s both contribute to society, but the way they do so is fundamentally different. Just because you cannot appreciate the way the 5 operates and what kind of use they bring to society, it does not mean they are in fact useless. That's personal bias on your part, and a statement I cannot agree with.

To support this argument, I mention that many 5s have helped to achieve societal progress in various fields, sciences and philosophy being the two fields I cited, although type 5s are of course not limited to these fields only. The thoughts presented by 5s have in turn helped us to further our understaning of how the universe operates at large, which has bi-effects such as improving the living standards we for instance see today.

Okay, let me just give you a little piece of information about me in case it would be helpful to you in some way. I've worked in science. I did so for quite a few years. And with that said...I want you to really think about what you are saying here...remaining mindful of the fact we are talking about the enneagram. Not only does the word 'enneagram' fail to be recognized as a legitimate word by spell-check...the enneagram is adamantly rejected by the scientific community...and if I were to mention it in the same manner you are above...my job would have been immediately called into question. Enneagram, doesn't even show up on the short list of 'philosophies & practices' some institutions will pay big money to fund research for (because they have some sort of 'stake' in it) in the hopes of proving it invalid ... like Astrology (which does pass spell-check by btw).

None of the statements you make above have been proven scientifically and are subsequently not considered facts. And yet you use these false statements...to try and show the error which is inherent in my opinion. There is no way you can demonstrate as fact that e5s are just as valuable to society as e6s are. Are you not seeing that you are and have been throughout this thing...within the realm of opinion yourself? The only thing that sets us apart is that I have admitted to this all along.

 

[Entropic]

*heavy sigh*
I guess I need you to decide on what I'm doing first because this back and forth is becoming tiresome. Am I making an argument or am I sharing my opinion?
If I was presenting an argument in an attempt to persuade an audience to take-on as their own the conclusions/beliefs I had arrived at using scientific data and analysis... then no. I wouldn't find this absurd. I would be expecting it.

I could equally have used the word "statement" if that's what you prefer. To me it conveys the same meaning. Or perhaps even better, what you did was a positivist claim, and as with any positivist claim, you can challenge its validity. You can say the sun is black. That's a positivist claim too, and I would challenge that exactly for the same reason I challenge you on the claim that E6s is the best enneatype.

The reason I find this absurd is due to the fact I am, quite openly, taking a whole bunch of info that I have collected and stored in my mind over the years (concerning all enneagram types mind you - not just e5). I am admittedly NOT subjecting any of that non-scientifically obtained data to any kind of scientific analysis... sharing a personal opinion based on my own values...and finally, I'm NOT asking others to take-on my beliefs as their own.

Just because it's a personal opinion it doesn't mean I can't or am not allowed to disagree with it.

Now, are you honestly questioning why I keep making reference to the word 'stake' - as in you are truly unable to comprehend why it would seem to me you have some sort of an emotional investment somehow? Because that is so difficult for me to wrap my brain around and now, on top of everything else that doesn't quite add up, I'm left to wonder if I was in fact right all along and this is why you are putting me and this thread through this process. Because I believe this now qualifies as a derailment.

I am really curious as to why you arrive at that conclusion to begin with. And perhaps it is a derailment but if this bothers you, then why keep responding?

I'm willing to do this little dance though if you wish. I just need you to honestly answer this question so the reason I'm being made to jump through these hoops makes sense to me... Why? If there is no emotional investment then why does one person's opinion on the internet inspire you so? I have other opinions as well. That one I said earlier about INTJs...yah that wasn't really much of a joke tbh...that's in the fast-lane towards becoming a bona fide opinion of mine as each day here passes. I also love it when it snows like crazy...but you don't need to go anywhere...and you are all warm inside drinking hot chocolate. Oh. And I've never been a fan of eating raw fish or green peppers although I do like the yellow and orange ones. I love Christmas and I hate public restrooms. <--Now would you like to challenge the logic I utilized to arrive at all of those opinions as well? Why this opinion LeaT? What is the purpose?

The emotional investment I put into this is the same same emotional investment I put into anything else when I argue with people online. Which is to say, not much. It's a way to avoid boredom. Also, I don't understand why you aren't a fan of eating raw fish, but that's hardly the topic of discussion here. See, my problem isn't necessarily that you claim that you like E6s. Everyone has the right to like or dislike a type. Instead, I failed to see the logical validity why you claimed such, because the reasoning process in which you delivered your opinion simply wasn't sound. If you are going to be biased towards a type, be my guest, but there's a fine line saying you like E6s and saying E6s is the bestest type out of all the enneatypes and E5s in comparison, or any other type than E6 for the matter, suck, because they are not like E6s. That really misses the entire point of the enneagram system.

Okay, let me just give you a little piece of information about me in case it would be helpful to you in some way. I've worked in science. I did so for quite a few years. And with that said...I want you to really think about what you are saying here...remaining mindful of the fact we are talking about the enneagram. Not only does the word 'enneagram' fail to be recognized as a legitimate word by spell-check...the enneagram is adamantly rejected by the scientific community...and if I were to mention it in the same manner you are above...my job would have been immediately called into question. Enneagram, doesn't even show up on the short list of 'philosophies & practices' some institutions will pay big money to fund research for (because they have some sort of 'stake' in it) in the hopes of proving it invalid ... like Astrology (which does pass spell-check by btw).

Whether enneagram theory is scientifically valid or not is quite irrelevant. The enneagram theory is a system that describes personality types and that's all there is to it.

None of the statements you make above have been proven scientifically and are subsequently not considered facts. And yet you use these false statements...to try and show the error which is inherent in my opinion. There is no way you can demonstrate as fact that e5s are just as valuable to society as e6s are. Are you not seeing that you are and have been throughout this thing...within the realm of opinion yourself? The only thing that sets us apart is that I have admitted to this all along.

Of course my statements have no scientific validity because enneagram is not considered a science. Even you yourself admits as much. But we can logically arrive at the conclusion that no type is better than the other because this is actually the point of enneagram theory. Enneagram theory assumes that there are 9 different personalities, all of them different. From this we can assume that each type has its own strengths and weaknesses. That's the very purpose of type. Since each type has its own different strengths and weaknesses, comparing the types as if one type is better than the other is thus a pretty useless endeavor by itself, because it again, operates under the assumption, that some traits or behaviors are more valued than the others. This again, reveals your own personal biases towards that specific type, not whether the type is in fact, better than the other types in an objective sense.

Again, just because you cannot see the benefits a type brings to society it doesn't mean there are no benefits. And this is beyond E5 vs E6. It applies to any other type compared to E6. No type is inherently better than the other. Again, not realizing this, is a failure to realize what enneagram is about as a theory. Just like 5s have their uses with how they can complexify a problem, 9s have their uses with their simple clarity. Just like 6s have their uses questioning and doubting authority, 1s have their uses creating logical structures built on their moral principles.

That's all there is to it. All types are needed in their own way, and they are all as useful in the right context.

 

[Starry]

Or perhaps even better, what you did was a positivist claim...

Wow.
If you were to suggest that I am…at the end of the day/when all is said and done…just an average, close-minded Logical Positivist…that I could get on-board with. Suggesting, however, that I in any way, shape or form put forth a Positivist claim… I would then need to seriously question your understanding of the concept.

...then why keep responding?

This is actually a really good question. I guess I didn't want to dismiss you until I was certain of your motivations. But yah, I will not repeat the mistake. Basically, every response from you thus far clearly demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of what I’m saying or why I’m saying it. In fact, your interpretations cause me to question if you have even read my posts at all. Your responses are littered with assumptions…and now with this last message I guess I need to include ‘fabrication’ as well? Is this truly how you show another person you are interested in their views like you claim (with an actual claim) to be interested in mine? Because the ‘Comment – Operate on assumption – Comment’ model doesn't seem to be working for you in that regard. Just sayin. I get the sense this is more about winning.

Look, with all due respect, this isn’t my first year in the debate club and I’m subsequently feeling *empowered* with this new tool called ‘rhetoric’! My skills are so rusty I would be laughed off of any serious stage…and in all honesty, yesterday I think I could only recall like 12 fallacies off the top of my head haha. Yet I still wouldn’t enter into a formal debate with you because, in my opinion, you are not ready to take on a topic such as the Enneagram.

In the end though it's merely a matter of...
De gustibus non est disputandum

Take care.

 

[Entropic]

Wow.
If you were to suggest that I am…at the end of the day/when all is said and done…just an average, close-minded Logical Positivist…that I could get on-board with. Suggesting, however, that I in any way, shape or form put forth a Positivist claim… I would then need to seriously question your understanding of the concept.

I never implied or claimed logical positivism. I already explained what I meant in my previous post. I don't think I need to explain myself again.

This is actually a really good question. I guess I didn't want to dismiss you until I was certain of your motivations. But yah, I will not repeat the mistake. Basically, every response from you thus far clearly demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of what I’m saying or why I’m saying it.

Could say the same about you.

In fact, your interpretations cause me to question if you have even read my posts at all.

Seeing how I tend to rebuke every point you're making, clearly I am reading something. What I intepret is however apparently not the same message you interpret in your head.

Your responses are littered with assumptions…

Such as?

and now with this last message I guess I need to include ‘fabrication’ as well?

Please explain how it's fabrication.

Is this truly how you show another person you are interested in their views like you claim (with an actual claim) to be interested in mine?

Who said I was interested in your views? If I was more genuinely interested in your views I'd ask you questions instead of refuting your points.

Because the ‘Comment – Operate on assumption – Comment’ model doesn't seem to be working for you in that regard. Just sayin. I get the sense this is more about winning.

Must disagreeing with someone else's point of view always be about winning?

Look, with all due respect, this isn’t my first year in the debate club and I’m subsequently feeling *empowered* with this new tool called ‘rhetoric’!

Well, that's good for you. This isn't my first year either. I've also studied rhetorics in the past.

My skills are so rusty I would be laughed off of any serious stage…

I notice.

and in all honesty, yesterday I think I could only recall like 12 fallacies off the top of my head haha. Yet I still wouldn’t enter into a formal debate with you because, in my opinion, you are not ready to take on a topic such as the Enneagram.

I am not? How so?

In the end though it's merely a matter of...
De gustibus non est disputandum

Take care.

Bai.

 

[Starry]

Hmmmm...

*wonders if there are more 6w5 counterphobics commenting in this thread than originally thought*

 

[Flatlander]

Hmmmm...

*wonders if there are more 6w5 counterphobics commenting in this thread than originally thought*

I'm going to correct that to 6w7, and wonder the same thing myself.

 

[Entropic]

Hmmmm...

*wonders if there are more 6w5 counterphobics commenting in this thread than originally thought*

Me too.

 

[skylights]

I wonder if there is something about the world...some unknown quality or feature that triggers something deep in you...making it difficult for you to trust?

Well, yes, it's the fundamental worldview that one has no real ability to thrive without external support, so it's necessary to one's survival to consciously manage it. That's the fear basis for all 6s, phobic and counterphobic alike. Phobics try to maintain that support and counterphobics try to test it. It's all rooted in fear of suddenly being abandoned by all external sources and unable to cope. In my life it mainly manifests as worrying about the stability of a handful of variables that I deem to be very important.

I suspect that my worldview is largely rooted in being incredibly ill when I was a very young child. I really didn't have any power to control my own destiny for years - no real surprise that I struggle to believe I can adequately guide myself.

But I will go to my grave never having formed a relationship of trust with the world. And is that a bad thing? The reason I'm asking is because that quality tops my 'Why I Feel Counterphobics Have the Greatest Potential to Impact the World in a Positive Way' list.

So, wait, are you identifying as a CP 6 yourself? Or having a CP 6 wing?

I have seen this solution put forth many times: That the pain and distress caused by an inability to trust in the world and all its systems can only be remedied with trust.

Yes. Learning how to take a leap of faith. Learning that trust requires lack of rationale. Learning that it's something you just do.

distrust is an asset. [...] There's a part of me that is highly bothered by the fact that people do not see and/or value how vital distrust and destruction is to humanity and our well-being. And if I cared to I could make an argument that a fair amount of the conflict e6cps experience stems from repeatedly being hit with the 'you are a big fat thorn in everyone's side' message...until months, years, centuries past the time the e6cp first smelled smoke...and London is now burning.

In some ways I agree with you, but in others I don't. Being able to question everything is a good thing, but not being able to trust is a bad thing. Yes, 6s often head off problems, but we also cause problems because we struggle to trust even in situations where we would like to. Failure to trust means that even in a peaceful, positive situation, the 6 will search for something that is a problem to fight against or protect themself from. The 6 ends up creating their own personal hell of never-ending reasons to distrust because the distrust comes from inside.

What's funny to me though skylights...is I didn't know you identified as counterphobic...haha!!! Umm...I most definitely see the e6/head-type 'gatherer of knowledge' in you and there is no doubt in my mind the world is a better place as you give of that knowledge freely but counterphobia? Wow. I'm put into a strange position because I have faith in your ability to assess who you are. But let's say today didn't happen haha. Yesterday, I would have sworn under oath that you were a phobic e6...using as evidence the fact I see higher levels of counterphobia from many of our 5w6 and 7w6 members - myself included. Yesterday, I would have confidently proclaimed 'Anyone that thinks skylights is counterphobic is high on crack.' I mean, *Starry says in a humble, non-counterphobic way* I even have a teeny, tiny, very, little, totally non-threatening trouble seeing you as an sx dom. But yah. Just throwing this out there... phobic e6ness...doesn't mean you never get mad or cause a scene.

Haha, it's okay. I don't really believe in the phobic/CP split as a pure thing. As an example, I actually work with two 6s, one of which is so counterphobic that I thought she was an 8 for the longest time, and another who is incredibly phobic. Both have outbursts - so do I. But they're really not all that different in the way they react to things, honestly, and I don't deviate much, either. Both are obsessive/ruminative - so am I, both feel the need to act immediately - so do I, and both tend to overblow things in their heads - so do I. The only real difference is that the phobic one almost always tries to deflate the situation by running around and extinguishing little flames of danger, so to speak, whereas the counterphobe almost always tries to push conflict into the open - pouring gas on the fires to see if they've got enough kindling to burn. As for myself, I really tend to do both of those things, depending on the situation. So I really can't identify strongly either way, and I feel like most 6s fall in the middle with me.

I'm not surprised that I wouldn't be seen as at all counterphobic on the boards, because I'm anonymous here. I enjoy posting here because there is very little in the way of "threat". There's not really anything dangerous to react to - so I don't have much reaction in general. IRL, I'm a bit more... spicy?

As for sexual dominance, I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the instinct variants. There is a lot of hype about sx-doms being flashy and intimidating and a whole host of other ostentatious descriptors, just as many people think that so-doms are crowd pleasing social ladder climbers. I think that a lot of sexual dominants are quiet romantic dreamers with an immersive/addictive streak, just like myself, just as I think there are many observant, critical cultural commentator type so-doms.

Maybe I should make this distinction. The counterphobic individual that I'm referencing in my original post in this thread is the breed of e6cp that is...for a lack of a better word...always counterphobic. <--much like I just stated with regards to the phobics above...this doesn't mean they are never happy or calm or passive or peaceful. But there is a level of intensity there. I have encountered phobic e6s that would sooner jump off a bridge than speak out against the status quo. There are phobics that will have outbursts that appear counterphobic but are merely outbursts. There are phobics that will have episodes of counterphobia...and on and on. But the type of counterphobic that I am referring to is the type that is (pretty much) fearless as a feature of their character. I have no idea how this manifests. Perhaps someone like Blackcat knows. But we have examples of this type throughout history and even a few on this site. I imagine they dealt with their fear by literally becoming fearless.

Sure, like my coworker. She's a little spitfire. And I agree that she would be brilliant in a rebellion. However, she always finds an issue to identify as "the worst issue ever", and blows it out of proportion to a ridiculous extent. Currently she's on a crusade to get our manager fired, even though he's probably the best one we've had in a while. She's decided he's the devil and that's that. Anyone who tries to dissuade her is seen as a dissenter and aiding and abetting his terribleness. And even though she may have that ever-burning flame, it's a liability at a certain point. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be in an authority position over her - she doesn't stop until everything's torn to the ground.

The destruction cycle is certainly important, but cp 6s, not knowing where to start, also don't know where to stop.

I think they are all stupid. Okay, haha...this quote may be a signal that I should include some sort of disclaimer? I think the e6cp is not appreciated for how brilliant they are and this frustrates me somewhat. The majority of them seem to courageously stand-up for what is just in my opinion - they uphold the values that are dear to me. It doesn't mean I don't think they are, at times, just as stupid as all the other e-types. (I'm kidding skylights).

Fair enough. I just think they screw themselves and others over as often as any other type.

I'm wondering if you could find some other people to help out...

Yeah, that's ideal, but I think part of every 6's journey is to learn how to identify or create that ground to stand on, too.

Edit: Are there e8 descriptions that identify e8 as 'Protector'? Not that e8s aren't or cannot be protective. It's just that I have only seen the titles 'Controller' and 'Challenger' for e8. It is the e6cp that generally receives the title of 'Protector.' 'Protector, Defender (of the underdog), Justice-Fighter'
The only reason I make mention of this is due to the high mistype 'rate' between the two. IOW...most e6cp end up believing they are e8. But perhaps I have missed something.

Oh, I don't know. I was just using my own words in that list. I wasn't sourcing any labels specifically.

My entire point being, I think it's neat that you're pointing this cp 6 strength out, but I also think that the stronger the phobia or counterphobia - the stronger the anxiety response in general - the less healthy a 6 is.

 

[Starry]

…I think it's neat that you're pointing this cp 6 strength out, but I also think that the stronger the phobia or counterphobia - the stronger the anxiety response in general - the less healthy a 6 is.

I sat here for a while trying to think of how many times in the course of my existence…another individual had described something I had done with purpose as ‘neat’… and I seriously think this might be the first time ever haha! (this is so exciting.) It’s a real mystery too…the lack of this adjective made in reference to me…especially when examining the synonyms - precise, tidy, organized, arranged, orderly…

Every time I go to communicate…I automatically generate a hundred holes because it is just not possible for me to put everything I think/feel into words <--which is why I started writing poetry at such an early age btw because I could load a 100 thoughts & images into one verse and people understood! iow, I didn’t fall in love with the art…I fell in love with the ‘shorthand’ or translative qualities it afforded me (and no, ‘translative’ is not a real word). The people that are close to me are close to me because they somehow fill in those holes. They hear what I’m not communicating.

I truly mean everything I put forth in this thread. I imagine you understand the ‘neatness’ of it because you share some of the same feelings when it comes to the e6 type…and the fact it seems to not have the reputation it deserves. And when you consider all the misinformation that feeds the misconception…it’s quite understandable why many people would fail to see themselves as e6 when they should. Counterphobia complicates things in this regard (for me I do believe in ‘pure counterphobia’ having enough examples of this in my family alone…but I am referring to cp in all its variations.) And I wanted to speak to how brilliant the entire e6 type is…and highlight the potential I know exists in the curse/gift of counterphobia. <--That absolutely does not mean that I don’t believe it shouldn’t be understood, managed and in a healthy state prior to it being of much benefit to anyone really...especially the individual. And I very much appreciate you filling in that hole.

So, wait, are you identifying as a CP 6 yourself? Or having a CP 6 wing?

When I first came to this site and subsequently the enneagram I believed I was a counterphobic e6, yes. It was all very confusing because…I primarily tested as a 7w6…I understood the e7 core issues fit me… and when I read the e9 integration pathway I’d think ‘Okay, that’s about the last thing I need…’ (what I’d do with e9 integration would be to construct a hammock between two trees and sleep for the rest of my life). But the connection to many of the aspects of counterphobia…this sort of idealistic identification with loyalty, justice, integrity, courage…with a real hatred of authority and the exploitation by those in power… All of that was so strong in me I thought there was no other choice. Until I heard Tom Condon mention cp-wings.

But like a member/friend mentioned…all of the above severely hinders my ability to comprehend an e6s desire to establish trust in relation to the world. There’s a bit of a reverse process going on as I started from a place of total trust…literally believing (not metaphorically but literally believing)…the world was a magical place…kinda like Neverland or Disneyland <--until life experience finally robbed me of the last of my ability to see that magic. Faith can only seem like a really bad idea to someone that has been crushed by it. But it’s all a balancing act I imagine. Well, maybe…I’m not ready to believe anything just yet haha. But I always appreciate being reminded of differing perspectives when I’ve lost track of them.

As for sexual dominance, I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the instinct variants.

The hype & misunderstanding caused me to mistype as well. Although…flashy, intimidating, flamboyant…those weren’t necessarily the qualities that deterred me as I could have somehow reworked them to fit under the banner ‘intensity’. I’ve always had an understanding of being a bit more intense than others…things/experiences filled with more meaning in my mind… What blocked my ability to see it was this supposed commitment to a sexually attractive physical appearance and traditional female roles which had me thinking ‘Oh fuck no.’

I most definitely believe in sx-doms that are romantic dreamers with an immersive/addictive streak because I’m one of them. What I have not noticed in you which is a compliment in my mind…is a polarizing effect…however subtle. It doesn’t make me disbelieve…it just makes it difficult for me to see is all. It’s merely something I’ve noted in everyone that I believe is an sx-dom whether that is true in reality or not. Basically, what I believe happens is the focus on the ‘intimate realm’ is so important that many sx-doms become polarizing just to maintain the sanctity of that space. For many of us this is entirely via unconscious action. iow, I think a lot of us learn early on that the fastest way to identify a true intimate is to be as offensive as you possibly can…and see who is still around after the dust settles haha. Okay, maybe not that bad. But something along those lines. Sx-doms have a reputation for being someone people either love or hate and I am suggesting that that is no accident. Everyone loves skylights though (just explaining…not disbelieving.)

 

[highlander]

But tonight in the hipster thread I had an amazing revelation: I take popular culture VERY seriously as a reflection of society. I'm constantly scanning music, literature, and art, and all the connected variables, for their reflection of the attitudes, ethics, and politics of the current (and past) societies. It's a life-long obsession, literally something that naturally began in childhood.

I take popular culture seriously in a way that probably strikes some people as vapid or maybe pretentious, but I see it as a very genuine form human art, it's the art of the common people, it's the creative expression of what life is like in that era. You really can change people's minds with songs and pictures and books and films.

Art is power, even if it's not "high art."

So yeah I realized that I actually take a kind of childlike glee in the hipster culture, not just because it's fun or I like some of the music, but because I proudly see a reflection of my own societal values becoming mainstream (such as non-Hollywood film, creativity in music, handmade, DIY, sustainable, eco-friendly, alternative transportation, artisanal foods and beverages, anti-corporate, et al).

.....


But my thinking is, look, these cultural values aren't yours to hoard as some reflection of your own narcissistic identity, these are ideas and ethics that are good to share with others. Other people adapting to these values is a good thing. It's a happy thing.

It means the world is changing. I have played a part in building a community, that's how I feel, I feel like I've had indirect influence on helping to create a new world, and that new world, no matter how imperfect, is clearly emerging.

You probably won't like what I'm saying here but that sounds an awful lot like Ne.

In a world where progressive politics and experimental music and counterculture and high valuation of that which is independent and non-corporate is actually becoming the "norm"...dude, this isn't something to complain about THIS IS PARTY TIME.

And this is what it feels like to be a healthy counterphobic 6, or to have "a moment" of high level counterphobic 6 health.

The counterphobic 6 at high health levels also delights in building community. It's just a counterculture community. The counterphobic 6 is the one building the brave new world, rather than the phobic 6 who works within an already agreed-upon conservative framework to solidify their communities.

That probably means most cult leaders are also counterphobic 6s, but I digress.

I think it might be 6-like if you are actively building that community through your own personal contribution or actions but connecting all those dots you described and perceiving the emerging patterns has nothing to do with being a 6. Discerning emerging patterns is what a person using Ne does.