[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Deflecting irational anger towards the cause

[Society]

I dont think I am a gut center...
But I do have a ton anger which is a relatively new thing for me, and a subject which you guys seem to excel at. So I will ask you:

do you find yourself realizing you are deflecting irational anger you have towards yourself in the direction of its rational causality (the person making the choice to inflict the harm you are angry about)?

How would you deal with that?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes, I do, but I don't have a solution, unfortunately, other than trying to develop awareness.

 

[Society]

Yes, I do, but I don't have a solution, unfortunately, other than trying to develop awareness.

Fully aware of it, still do it.

 

[jcloudz]

or move away from your parents.

 

[Society]

or move away from your parents.

Rofl, I might clearify:
My irational anger is towards myself for not being there for my boy.
The rational deflection is towards my ex wife for not letting me see him.

 

[Society]

Neither of the examples seem to have anything to do with what I am talking about [MENTION=17911]Maybe[/MENTION] .....

 

[Animal]

Neither of the examples seem to have anything to do with what I am talking about [MENTION=17911]Maybe[/MENTION] .....

Okay can you explain what you mean then?

 

[Society]

Okay can you explain what you mean then?

The pattern is that the angery at yourself for something you cant change and didnt choose, that anger is there but you cant justify it or make sense of it, so your mind direct it towards were were it would be if it was a rational emotion.

 

[EJCC]

I dont think I am a gut center...
But I do have a ton anger which is a relatively new thing for me, and a subject which you guys seem to excel at. So I will ask you:

do you find yourself realizing you are deflecting irational anger you have towards yourself in the direction of its rational causality (the person making the choice to inflict the harm you are angry about)?

How would you deal with that?

Are you talking about projection? I think that's something that everyone tends to do. It's what all unjustified anger is, to a degree -- right?

I'm sure there have been times when I've thought I was angry at someone else, but was really angry at myself. Can't think of an instance right now, because my tendency is usually to give myself too much blame, instead of too little. (However, that tendency is relatively recent.)

This is going to sound sappy, and maybe too Fi-heavy, but I'd suggest exploring that anger, unpacking it and trying to understand it better -- because it's easier to fix/minimize a problem if you know what the problem actually entails.

The pattern is that the angery at yourself for something you cant change and didnt choose, that anger is there but you cant justify it or make sense of it, so your mind direct it towards were were it would be if it was a rational emotion.

All emotions exist for a reason. Your anger is there for a reason. Cause and effect. If it's not rational, it doesn't really matter, as long as you understand why the emotion is doing what it's doing, and how you can calm it down.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Rofl, I might clearify:
My irational anger is towards myself for not being there for my boy.
The rational deflection is towards my ex wife for not letting me see him.

Is there such a thing as a rational deflection? Or are you deflecting and internalizing the anger towards your ex-wife onto yourself?

I would suspect that the most rational source of anger is the primary source and the irrational expression of it is the deflection.

 

[Words of Ivory]

Can you demand more custody?

 

[Thalassa]

The pattern is that the angery at yourself for something you cant change and didnt choose, that anger is there but you cant justify it or make sense of it, so your mind direct it towards were were it would be if it was a rational emotion.

Are you absolutely certain that you didn't do something to cause it? It doesn't really seem legal to not be able to be near your child just because your ex-wife says so. Unless a judge ordered you to stay away, and typically when a judge does that, there's a reason.

If so, perhaps you should explore that.

 

[Society]

Is there such a thing as a rational deflection? Or are you deflecting and internalizing the anger towards your ex-wife onto yourself?

I would suspect that the most rational source of anger is the primary source and the irrational expression of it is the deflection.

it's possible... but i suspect its the other way around, since the anger towards my ex was on the surface, understanding that it's anger towards myself came more as a dig, had more of a catharthic experience of understanding to it... i am not sure if that means anything though. it is possible i am examining it from the wrong direction.

Are you absolutely certain that you didn't do something to cause it? It doesn't really seem legal to not be able to be near your child just because your ex-wife says so. Unless a judge ordered you to stay away, and typically when a judge does that, there's a reason.

If so, perhaps you should explore that.

can't get visitation rights without citizenship - didn't finish the immigration process in time for the relationship fall, and don't have mutual custody since we were planning to finish the adoption process after the immigration process. no judge order, just wasn't there to be the sperm doner. but yes, ofcourse there are things i could have done to delay the break up as well as cut down on the beurocratic delays regarding those, so in that regard i am responsible.

Can you demand more custody?

i'll be able to demand visitation rights, but it can take a couple of years to get to that point, if we are lucky.

 

[Words of Ivory]

I know it's not much, or what you're looking for, but get on that as soon as possible. You shouldn't have to be put in this position.

 

[Society]

I know it's not much, or what you're looking for, but get on that as soon as possible. You shouldn't have to be put in this position.

...he shouldn't be put into his position.

but should and shouldn'ts don't mean much at this point, i am doing what i can, but immigration without sponsership - as a skilled worker instead - won't work before i finish my studies and get hired there.
then it's a gamble: as a step parent, a judge needs to sign the order, which will take into account my son's will, which i agree with, but by then it will be at least two years of brainwashing by her, which from what i've learned, includes making him believe he was abandoned by me, which is a lot for a 5 (by then 7) year old's to take... the potential for stored anger on his side, the fear of being hurt again like that, combined with whatever his mother feeds him while he is living in a newly created emotional reality in which parents can leave you and would seek her approval to an even more extreme extent to protect himself from that, along with his already existing and quite amazing sensitivity to other's emotions (he is very very Fe) and the high likelyhood of him picking up on her fears and loathing whenever my name gets mentioned... there are a lot of factors working against us, it's all about whether his memories of me, if clear enough to still recognize me at all, would be enough to overcome it all. life isn't a hallmark movie.

our only way of seen each other before that is at her grace, which is preferable - peace in the family, not being terrified of the kind of person he's spending the rest of the week with, less hostility... but i've tried several times over, and have come to accept that it's not within her emotional capacity.

 

[Thalassa]

Okay, I think a lot about anger, as it has been a major issue in my life (my grandfather had an angry ESTJ wife, my ESFJ ex had a violent anger problem, I have to deal with my less-obvious-on-the-surface-but-sometimes-inappropriately-directed anger as a consequence) ...and the conclusion that I've come to is that anger can help energize us and see that things are wrong, lead us into self-protection.

Anger directed inward becomes depression. I think part of the reason I've had a depressive disorder is because of inwardly directed anger, but as a child I wasn't ALLOWED to be angry at my step-monster, so I turned it inside.

However, I've had a pretty firm grip on being assertive and expressing anger since my late teens. I don't think I'm a gut type, but I do have an 8 gut fix in my triad.

There is a 9 who directs a lot of his anger at me. And to an extent, it is completely inappropriate, considering the fact that I was always loyal to him and expressed love for him, and only was cruel to him in reaction to him being cruel to me first (but he probably doesn't see it that way, because he's out of touch with himself, though he would admit to me he purposefully did passive-aggressive things to push my buttons).

He acted angry at me, for example, when I knew he was actually angry at another woman. He had every right to be angry at her, but somehow, I ended up being the person he got angry at.

You know why? Because he's a repressed 9, and 9s look for the easiest possible way...and I'm a receptive and emotionally expressive person. I'm thinking at the time that the other person wasn't very receptive. I seem like an okay person to show anger to. I'm receptive to him being pretty much whomever he is whenever he is that, and I was especially open to him at the time, it's funny, because I remember my intention at the time was to "help" him as he was drinking heavily and we had recently got back into touch. It's also easy to show emotions to me since I'm so emotional. It's like a create an "appropriate" and comfortable space for other people to be expressive emotionally when I'm being emotionally expressive...I guess?

Anyway, he has maintained a vicious and unbelievable (and unwarranted) amount of anger at me. I think about it and I think "I don't deserve this."

However, I've started also reading about unconditional love and what love really is, and love starts with self-love. Above all you have to love yourself. Start with self-care. Start with loving and accepting self completely (not in a narcissistic or "I'm better" sort of way, but in a really honest and authentic and spiritual way).

I read something tonight, where a woman had written that you stop feeling like a victim when you're completely in touch with your self love and can give unconditional love without expecting anything in return. You don't expect anything in return because you already love yourself so completely and spiritually, and realize there is no shortage of love, that there is an abundance of love from the Source.

Even if you aren't spiritual, I do think that complete self-love and self-acceptance could help you A) stop being angry at yourself and B) maybe even to stop feeling like a victim so you would be a little less angry at your ex-wife so that C) you could somehow move mountains with unconditional love for your son.

Because love begets love, and once you really are filled with self-love and can give unconditional love, love comes back to you, maybe from places you least expect it (because remember, you don't expect or demand it from anyone in particular, it's not an accounting game, it's not capitalism or an eye for eye, that's not how real love works).

If any of this does not make sense, let me know, and I'll try to be clearer.

 

[Words of Ivory]

No, of course, he shouldn't.

I didn't realise the situation was that complicated. I went through something similar myself recently, so I know how heart wrenching it can be. I hope some decent resolution can be found.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

...he shouldn't be put into his position.

but should and shouldn'ts don't mean much at this point, i am doing what i can, but immigration without sponsership - as a skilled worker instead - won't work before i finish my studies and get hired there.
then it's a gamble: as a step parent, a judge needs to sign the order, which will take into account my son's will, which i agree with, but by then it will be at least two years of brainwashing by her, which from what i've learned, includes making him believe he was abandoned by me, which is a lot for a 5 (by then 7) year old's to take... the potential for stored anger on his side, the fear of being hurt again like that, combined with whatever his mother feeds him while he is living in a newly created emotional reality in which parents can leave you and would seek her approval to an even more extreme extent to protect himself from that, along with his already existing and quite amazing sensitivity to other's emotions (he is very very Fe) and the high likelyhood of him picking up on her fears and loathing whenever my name gets mentioned... there are a lot of factors working against us, it's all about whether his memories of me, if clear enough to still recognize me at all, would be enough to overcome it all. life isn't a hallmark movie.

our only way of seen each other before that is at her grace, which is preferable - peace in the family, not being terrified of the kind of person he's spending the rest of the week with, less hostility... but i've tried several times over, and have come to accept that it's not within her emotional capacity.

That is horrible. The most I can do is send condolences. Even if this goes on without your ability to see your son, time does go by quickly and he will spend most of his life as an adult, so perhaps when he is 18, there could be a way to reconnect. The younger years are more impressionable, but that age is also able to adapt. It is also the age where young people long for resolution with parents.

In the meantime, if your ex has self-centered motivations, is there a way to create a personal benefit to her in exchange for seeing your son? I don't mean to sound too cynical, but my brother is married to a narcissist, and self-interest trumps any emotion. The people I know like that might exchange opportunity to see a child for money or some tangible good that they desire. I know that is actually bribing, but if it results in a positive thing for you, maybe it is right.

Also, like [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION] said, I would be careful about turning anger inward. Definitely find a way to release that because it is horribly damaging and not productive in the end. I find it is helpful when I internalize anger to step outside myself and think of what I would say to someone else in my same situation. I find I offer more mercy that way. Maybe that will help?

 

[Society]

That is horrible. The most I can do is send condolences. Even if this goes on without your ability to see your son, time does go by quickly and he will spend most of his life as an adult, so perhaps when he is 18, there could be a way to reconnect. The younger years are more impressionable, but that age is also able to adapt. It is also the age where young people long for resolution with parents.

eventually, but in the mean time he grows with the trauma of the deepest rejection he can feel, believing his father left him, develops his ego while asking in the back of his head why i left him, what does it mean about him, about his sense of worth, asking himself whether something's wrong with him, growing a distorted villified image of his past role model and developing his sense of self in relations to it, learning that the people he trusts the most can leave him the next day, a fear that could almost certainly affect subtly his relationship with his mother towards unhealthy levels even in the ideal case of her being a healthy person...
and she's not, there's nothing inside of her to stop her from any amount of harm to any level of loved ones because she can't acknowledge when she does, her instincts will be good enough for awhile, but what happens when he starts thinking on his own and learning of things that reflect negatively on her moral ego? there's nobody there to protect him from her.
what happens to his personal growth? she doesn't know how to provide him with stimulation, she's not exactly a volcano of ideas about how to let him explore his skills and try new things, she has plenty of idealistic values but none that she acts on in a way in which he can copy & learn, and she has no notion of responsibility, and emotionally, he takes care of her more then she can take care of him, pulling his entire being into one direction like that, forcing him to grow around her... and she can't even see that...

i have time, he doesn't.

In the meantime, if your ex has self-centered motivations, is there a way to create a personal benefit to her in exchange for seeing your son? I don't mean to sound too cynical, but my brother is married to a narcissist, and self-interest trumps any emotion. The people I know like that might exchange opportunity to see a child for money or some tangible good that they desire. I know that is actually bribing, but if it results in a positive thing for you, maybe it is right.

i doubt it. i am planing to start sending them money anyway once i am done with my studies, giving her a list of activities for him to go to in the area if she asks about it, it will be helpful for him, get him out of the house, and will give her the sense of security that it's something she can break free from (she's smart... and paranoid). she will most likely see it as a bribe, devalue the gesture, and be offended by the very thought that i would think it would inflounce her, reassuring her of how little i know about her and how delusional i am and that she has done the right thing in getting rid of me, etc' - since everything is measured by how it reflects on her ego (and ironically so). it doesn't matter regarding my decision to do it, but it's not going to change her mind, or rather, i would be positively shocked if it does.

Also, like [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION] said, I would be careful about turning anger inward. Definitely find a way to release that because it is horribly damaging and not productive in the end. I find it is helpful when I internalize anger to step outside myself and think of what I would say to someone else in my same situation. I find I offer more mercy that way. Maybe that will help?

i didn't percieve it as a problem until now... i suppose it can be. it's certainly something i need to think about.

also: thank you. i know i've being somewhat mean to you in past conversations, so this is actually sort of... impressive, to be honest

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Another thought: If you save up over the years to help pay for college or a car for him, that is a tangible way to demonstrate that you have been thinking of him and invested in him in a way that required a commitment. I know that everything you said is true and that he will be damaged by this situation. It is especially unfortunate that is mother has such issues to burden him with. I hope he can have access to someone especially loving even if it is a grandparent, uncle, aunt, or anyone. It makes a huge difference if a child can have some model of compassion.

It is surprising how much a human being can survive and that at any point we can grow at least a little. I was fortunate to have a loving mother, although she did have anxiety issues, understandably. I grew up knowing that my father tried to kill my mother and brother, called my sister an ugly duckling, and declared in court records that I was not his child. These issues come to the survive during the teen years, and that is why I mentioned the importance of connecting around age 18 if there is no way to do it sooner. Teenagers are trying to understand themselves and so they rebel against parents, but also become deeply curious about absent parents and how that affects who they are as a person. I thought I was half evil, and it was damaging to me, but I managed to survive it. My brother is especially damaged, but he has made some progress. Unfortunately he married a narcissistic woman, so his damage has continued. To be involved from the age 18 can help to stabilize a child's life. It will be important the he not marry a woman like his mother. It will be important to know you are invested in his success and proud of him as he tries to make the most important choices of his life. That's why I was thinking that if you could start saving towards that goal, he will know that you have always been invested in him, and a lot of healing can take place.

Edit: One more thing (I guess this scenario struck a chord of concern), when the day comes that you try to reconnect when he is a teenager, he may be resistant at first. He may try to reject you to whatever extent he has been taught that you rejected him. I can guarantee you 100% that deep down he will long for your acceptance. At that point if you are gently persistent, show approval and help him feel safe and strong, he will eventually respond and connect.