[Type 9] 9 at the Crown of the Enneagram: Interpret, Discuss.

[Animal]

9 is at the crown of the enneagram. How do you interpret this? What does it mean in terms of your understanding of the whole system?

I was discussing this with [MENTION=15372]Flatlander[/MENTION] recently, and we theorized that point 9 holds on to self the least. 9s who are unhealthy are dissociative, losing sense of self. 9s who are healthier might have a sense of self, but still tend to "mesh" with other people and relate easily. This might also contribute to Naranjo's diagnosis: psycho-spiritual laziness. It may pertain to a laziness in defining self, or introspection.

Contrarily, points 4 and 5 are furthest from the crown, and hold most tightly to self. 4 holds on to self through their pursuit of authenticity and personal significance; their need to assert and define an identity. 5 holds on to self through avarice; feeling as though nothing in the world is "of" themselves, except their mind; therefore, rejecting the material world and attachments all together, which leaves them with Naranjo's diagnosis of pathological detachment.

I'm curious to hear more thoughts on the meaning of 9 at the crown of the enneagram, and how the other types pan out in relation to it. =)

 

[madhatter]

I would say that the next two types to struggle most with loss of identity are 3 and 6. They are connected to 9 in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM!

Even though they are 9's neighbors, both 8 and 1 hold onto to the Self. What's interesting about these three types is that they are concerned with Ego boundaries. 8 maintains Self and Ego by maintaining an outward vigilance. 1s maintain their Self, or their ideal of Self, by maintaining an inward vigilance...I imagine this is where 1-ish superego comes in. I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.

I think that 2 and 7 might be somewhere in between.

 

[brainheart]

How I see it:

One of my problems with Naranjo's description of nine is I don't think he shows the whole picture. Nine, the crown, is the alpha and the omega, not just the alpha. It's the child in the womb but it's also the return to the earth. For this reason there's a real holistic sense to the nine. The nine can relate to a wide range of people, experiences, nature, etc because the nine can tap into something both internal and external and get it all. I think the concept of transcendentalism, with the oversoul, is incredibly nine-ish. A nine can go for a walk in the woods and feel a deep connection to everything. The trees, the birds, the sky, are all a part of the self. So if a tree gets cut down a nine can feel that intensely, as if they themselves were injured. There is a lack of boundaries, yes, but with that lack of boundaries comes an extreme level of empathy.

I thought I was a 4w5 because I AM introspective and I can really relate to fours- and fives. (I'm also an INFP and a sx/sp. I don't know how I wouldn't be introspective and dark, deep...) The difference, however, is that there is this element of a weighted scale. I know what my needs are and what would be best for me but the wants and needs of others feel heavier. And so I often let go of my personal priorities, and with that comes an apathy and a depression and a numbing, because I am rather aware that I lose myself, but I don't know how to change it. So I often give up and get extremely nihilistic. I feel like I lack the oomph and the internal conviction that fours and fives have. On the plus side, because I do get where others are coming from, I'm not quite as separate as a four and five can be, even though my social instinct is last. It's why, when I thought I was a four, I was always waffling on instincts. I know I'm part of an interconnected web, but that's because I'm a nine. I feel it acutely.

I think the real question is, what is self? What is individuality? I think for the nine this is an extremely fluid concept, probably for all types in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM (ha), but especially for the nine. Being both the beginning and end, the type can't help but constantly cycle through. I've never been able to grasp chronological time. The past is the present is the future. Perhaps this is why. (And maybe that's the best argument for Einstein being a nine, his theory of relativity.)

 

[Such Irony]

I would say that the next two types to struggle most with loss of identity are 3 and 6. They are connected to 9 in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM!

Even though they are 9's neighbors, both 8 and 1 hold onto to the Self. What's interesting about these three types is that they are concerned with Ego boundaries. 8 maintains Self and Ego by maintaining an outward vigilance. 1s maintain their Self, or their ideal of Self, by maintaining an inward vigilance...I imagine this is where 1-ish superego comes in. I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.

I think that 2 and 7 might be somewhere in between.

I agree with this.

 

[mintleaf]

9 is at the crown of the enneagram. How do you interpret this? What does it mean in terms of your understanding of the whole system?

I was discussing this with [MENTION=15372]Flatlander[/MENTION] recently, and we theorized that point 9 holds on to self the least. 9s who are unhealthy are dissociative, losing sense of self. 9s who are healthier might have a sense of self, but still tend to "mesh" with other people and relate easily. This might also contribute to Naranjo's diagnosis: psycho-spiritual laziness. It may pertain to a laziness in defining self, or introspection.

Contrarily, points 4 and 5 are furthest from the crown, and hold most tightly to self. 4 holds on to self through their pursuit of authenticity and personal significance; their need to assert and define an identity. 5 holds on to self through avarice; feeling as though nothing in the world is "of" themselves, except their mind; therefore, rejecting the material world and attachments all together, which leaves them with Naranjo's diagnosis of pathological detachment.

I'm curious to hear more thoughts on the meaning of 9 at the crown of the enneagram, and how the other types pan out in relation to it. =)

I don't think it has anything to do with "laziness in defining self." It can just be difficult to when you're so attuned to others' frames of mind.

If anything I think 9 is one of the most vigilantly self-examining types, because they have to be to prevent dissociation. As [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] said, 9s don't only represent the impressionable infant, with a heightened ability to absorb and an immature identity. At their best, they represent the actualized self who has been able to take in all that is not himself (openness), lose himself many times in the process of trying to establish boundaries, but come out in the end with the ego intact, realized and self-aware.

I was reading about Maslow's qualities of self-actualized people earlier today, and now that I think of it, many of them are traits associated with highly mature/healthy 9s. I mean, they could characterize mature individuals of any type, but "dichotomy transcendence" is especially 9-ish.

Touching on what brainheart said about relativity — it's hard to feel a significant amount of motivation for a goal when I'm constantly aware of other viewpoints which may render my goal unnecessary or counterproductive. if my sense of self isn't firm at the time I'll grow detached from my own instincts/values, become very nihilistic, and give up the goal altogether.

does that make sense?

 

[Animal]

I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.

Interesting. =)

How I see it:

One of my problems with Naranjo's description of nine is I don't think he shows the whole picture.

Perhaps I'll start another thread on things Naranjo missed for each type
I have a lot to say about this for 8s.

A nine can go for a walk in the woods and feel a deep connection to everything. The trees, the birds, the sky, are all a part of the self. So if a tree gets cut down a nine can feel that intensely, as if they themselves were injured. There is a lack of boundaries, yes, but with that lack of boundaries comes an extreme level of empathy.

Do you feel this way all the time? Or just sometimes?

I know what my needs are and what would be best for me but the wants and needs of others feel heavier. And so I often let go of my personal priorities, and with that comes an apathy and a depression and a numbing, because I am rather aware that I lose myself, but I don't know how to change it. So I often give up and get extremely nihilistic. I feel like I lack the oomph and the internal conviction that fours and fives have.

That is so interesting. Do you try to come up with ways to change it? How quickly do you give up?

I think the real question is, what is self? What is individuality? I think for the nine this is an extremely fluid concept, probably for all types in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM (ha), but especially for the nine. Being both the beginning and end, the type can't help but constantly cycle through. I've never been able to grasp chronological time. The past is the present is the future. Perhaps this is why. (And maybe that's the best argument for Einstein being a nine, his theory of relativity.)

Einstein as a 9? Wow..
The past is the present is the future... very interesting. I've felt like this sometimes, like I can't help but see the "whole picture" all at once?
Can you elaborate on this?

If anything I think 9 is one of the most vigilantly self-examining types, because they have to be to prevent dissociation.

So you are aware of this possibility and work to develop self-awareness in order to fight it?
Is this something you've always realized about yourself, even before studying enneagram?

Touching on what brainheart said about relativity — it's hard to feel a significant amount of motivation for a goal when I'm constantly aware of other viewpoints which may render my goal unnecessary or counterproductive. if my sense of self isn't firm at the time I'll grow detached from my own instincts/values, become very nihilistic, and give up the goal altogether.

does that make sense?

How do you select which viewpoints to listen to? Can it be anyone? Or just people you trust? Do all viewpoints sort of "get under your skin?"

Also how can your "sense of self be firm at the time" - how do you know it's firm? Is that if you make your decisions and stick to them regardless of other viewpoints? Does that happen?

 

[mintleaf]

So you are aware of this possibility and work to develop self-awareness in order to fight it?
Is this something you've always realized about yourself, even before studying enneagram?

It's not something I've always known about myself, but I knew about it before studying enneagram. I actually had a strong sense of self up until my depression became very severe. I've always been interested in identity, but this was the first time I was really vulnerable to the scarier implications of those questions. I didn't feel like myself at all (Fi-Si?) and it scared the hell out of me. Eventually set in motion a year-long episode of depersonalization.

How do you select which viewpoints to listen to? Can it be anyone? Or just people you trust? Do all viewpoints sort of "get under your skin?"

(Ugh, I communicated something entirely different than what I meant. I think you [rightly] took "viewpoints" to mean "opinions," but I was talking about something more visceral - like drive or attitude, maybe? I have no idea how to explain it, so I guess I'll answer your question.)
I consider all of them, but I've never trusted anyone's opinion implicitly. I need to know for myself that an opinion is valid. Someone could make the stupidest, most ill-informed remark and I'll still analyze and respond to it seriously even if I sense immediately that it's bullshit; someone I respect could say something that sounds very intelligent and well-thought out, and I'll do the same. I don't know if this has as much to do with being a 9 as it does with strongly valuing civil discourse and logical consistency.

Also how can your "sense of self be firm at the time" - how do you know it's firm? Is that if you make your decisions and stick to them regardless of other viewpoints? Does that happen?

As long as I'm mentally/emotionally healthy, it's firm.
I've just dealt with a lot of apathy. Even while I stay firm in what I believe and care about, I've gone through phases where this wasn't felt at all; it was totally cognitive, and my drive was lost. Again, I don't really know what I was saying in that paragraph... I've never been confused about my values, just temporarily detached from any passion towards them. This happens when a. I begin to weigh others' feelings above my own (as brainheart said) or b. I'm too overwhelmed by my own feelings and use detachment as a coping mechanism. I'll subconsciously dull the emotional immediacy of my wants, and eventually I don't feel anything.

 

[WALMART]

We are kings of the castle, hence our crown.


I have drawn many parallels between Buddhism and Enneagram type nines. The latter is almost inherently drawn to the universal concepts Buddhism propagates, and it fascinates me. They embrace all that is good and right in the world at an intrinsic level - tranquility and peace, humility and happiness. Kendrick Lamar wrote the nine anthem when he recorded this:

"We live in a world on two different axles - You live in a world, you living behind the mirror"

Nines' conscious pursuit is to shatter the mirror and live eternally, while many other personality types' conscious pursuit is to reinforce its structuring.

 

[brainheart]

Do you feel this way all the time? Or just sometimes?

No, I feel incredibly disconnected often, actually. It can be a coping mechanism. I think this is where the 'tuning out' of nines comes from, because otherwise the empathy and lack of boundaries gets to be too overwhelming. I can often seem to people like I don't give a shit. For example, I'll be tormented about the death of some random bird but when my father in law died I felt nothing. I tend to not feel things strongly except for when I'm alone, and sometimes it's really delayed. I think this is a way that nines and fives can be really similar. I think they are both types prone to nihilism/being schizoid when unhealthy, it just comes from different places. That said, however, I am also really moody- I'm actually bipolar. Funny thing is, though, most people would never suspect because I tend to keep it quite hidden. I think this is where a lot of the misconceptions regarding nines comes from. We can appear rather unemotional or more positive externally- there is a smoothing over- but internally, things can be completely nuts. We just don't tend to share it, so people like Naranjo think nines lack depth, or are simplistic.

That is so interesting. Do you try to come up with ways to change it? How quickly do you give up?

Yes, I definitely come up with ways, and can get very excited about these ways. But when my assertions start to create conflict (both internal and external), or seem too hard, I can fall rather easily. It's essentially a constant struggle.

Einstein as a 9? Wow..

Yeah, there seems to be a fair bit of argument between 5 vs 9 for him.

The past is the present is the future... very interesting. I've felt like this sometimes, like I can't help but see the "whole picture" all at once?
Can you elaborate on this?

I'll try. There's little to no progression to my life. You know how in films they will cut through time, going back and forth? It can make time feel extremely non-linear. That's how I tend to feel. I'm three years old, I'm thirty. Then I'm six. When I write I'm all over the place. There's little to no cause and effect, no story arc, no conclusion. It's like I'm inhabiting a world with no time.

Have you seen the movie Tree of Life? Or I'm Not There? I think both of these films have a real nine-ish fluidity to them. I'm Not There I think is especially sexual nine- Bob Dylan is played by several actors, experiencing different lives, living different genders. I told a friend once that I sometimes see myself, when I'm old, as an old man. In my dreams I'm just as often male as I am female. I used to dream about giving birth to raccoon babies and it seemed perfectly natural. This is why I mentioned the self before, and what exactly that means. My self, my life, is just all over the place. It's not that I don't have an identity, it's just not so concrete as it seems to be for most people. This used to bother me, but I'm starting to embrace it. It's actually kind of cool.

 

[Entropic]

No, I feel incredibly disconnected often, actually. It can be a coping mechanism. I think this is where the 'tuning out' of nines comes from, because otherwise the empathy and lack of boundaries gets to be too overwhelming. I can often seem to people like I don't give a shit. For example, I'll be tormented about the death of some random bird but when my father in law died I felt nothing. I tend to not feel things strongly except for when I'm alone, and sometimes it's really delayed. I think this is a way that nines and fives can be really similar. I think they are both types prone to nihilism/being schizoid when unhealthy, it just comes from different places. That said, however, I am also really moody- I'm actually bipolar. Funny thing is, though, most people would never suspect because I tend to keep it quite hidden. I think this is where a lot of the misconceptions regarding nines comes from. We can appear rather unemotional or more positive externally- there is a smoothing over- but internally, things can be completely nuts. We just don't tend to share it, so people like Naranjo think nines lack depth, or are simplistic.

On the other hand, I find that 9s often have difficulties sharing their inner turmoil as they tend to try to look away from this as well so I don't blame Naranjo either.

How would you say your sense of nihilism differs to that of the 5? In the case of seeing a birth writhing in death convulsions, I would perhaps feel a little sorry for it too but I wonder if for me specifically, that's just not an NF thing. I can intellectualize away my empathy though.

I'll try. There's little to no progression to my life. You know how in films they will cut through time, going back and forth? It can make time feel extremely non-linear. That's how I tend to feel. I'm three years old, I'm thirty. Then I'm six. When I write I'm all over the place. There's little to no cause and effect, no story arc, no conclusion. It's like I'm inhabiting a world with no time.

Have you seen the movie Tree of Life? Or I'm Not There? I think both of these films have a real nine-ish fluidity to them. I'm Not There I think is especially sexual nine- Bob Dylan is played by several actors, experiencing different lives, living different genders. I told a friend once that I sometimes see myself, when I'm old, as an old man. In my dreams I'm just as often male as I am female. I used to dream about giving birth to raccoon babies and it seemed perfectly natural. This is why I mentioned the self before, and what exactly that means. My self, my life, is just all over the place. It's not that I don't have an identity, it's just not so concrete as it seems to be for most people. This used to bother me, but I'm starting to embrace it. It's actually kind of cool.

Interesting. Have you seen the film Mr. Nobody? How do you think a 4 film would play out in contrast? Have you seen Vanilla Sky? Actually, this is a really interesting topic that I think deserves its own thread in a way, how enneagram themes play out in fiction.

 

[brainheart]

On the other hand, I find that 9s often have difficulties sharing their inner turmoil as they tend to try to look away from this as well so I don't blame Naranjo either.

I agree that this is true for a lot of nines. That's why, although I considered nine in the past, I never stuck with it and always returned to four. I think I understand how the nine operates within me better now. I think sx/sp nines are more likely to delve into their inner turmoil. It is the instinctual stacking that is motivated to 'know the heart and resolve inner conflict', after all, the 'hungry ghost'. I really like this from the bliss stream 9w1 sx/sp description, it fits me really well: They desire personal development and enlightenment. However, their sloth is always one step ahead of them. They know what they gotta do, but can't summon the motivation to do it. So what I'm saying is that there seems to be an emphasis in Naranjo on the psychospiritual inertia of nine. I think with the sx/sp nine, the introspection is there, there's just this heavy blanket of apathy, this what's the point, really?

How would you say your sense of nihilism differs to that of the 5?

I explained my nihilism above, that nothing I do is really worth the time or effort. I'm not going to do anything profound, or if I do, no one will notice or see it, and there's lots of people doing things that are interesting and creative and profound, so why? I am a miniscule drop in an infinite bucket. Why bother?

You're a five, tell me what your nihilism is like.

Interesting. Have you seen the film Mr. Nobody? How do you think a 4 film would play out in contrast? Have you seen Vanilla Sky? Actually, this is a really interesting topic that I think deserves its own thread in a way, how enneagram themes play out in fiction.

I have seen Vanilla Sky, although it's been a long while. I've never seen Mr. Nobody. I think with a four film the protagonist is less fluid, more like the individual is the constant within an ever-changing world vs the other way around. But I don't really know. It seems it would be that way to me. Funnily, Bob Dylan is a four, and the premise of the film is that he went through different periods of his life where he was kind of reinventing himself, figuring himself out, so... who knows? I think Andrei Tarkovsky's The Mirror is a good example of a four (4w5) film; it can seem really similar to Tree of Life, but I think there's a difference. In The Mirror there is a real feeling of separateness, isolation while Tree of Life has an undercurrent of transcendentalism/unification. All of Terence Malick's films seem very INFP sx/sp nine to me, but maybe that's just because they resonate extremely strongly for me. He is the director who most closely depicts what goes on in my internal world.

Anyway, the mirror-

This is a montage from Tree of Life, which kind of bugs me (that it's not the original edit) but it's done well and gives the gist of the film, so-

 

[Entropic]

I agree that this is true for a lot of nines. That's why, although I considered nine in the past, I never stuck with it and always returned to four. I think I understand how the nine operates within me better now. I think sx/sp nines are more likely to delve into their inner turmoil. It is the instinctual stacking that is motivated to 'know the heart and resolve inner conflict', after all, the 'hungry ghost'. I really like this from the bliss stream 9w1 sx/sp description, it fits me really well: They desire personal development and enlightenment. However, their sloth is always one step ahead of them. They know what they gotta do, but can't summon the motivation to do it. So what I'm saying is that there seems to be an emphasis in Naranjo on the psychospiritual inertia of nine. I think with the sx/sp nine, the introspection is there, there's just this heavy blanket of apathy, this what's the point, really?

I explained my nihilism above, that nothing I do is really worth the time or effort. I'm not going to do anything profound, or if I do, no one will notice or see it, and there's lots of people doing things that are interesting and creative and profound, so why? I am a miniscule drop in an infinite bucket. Why bother?

You're a five, tell me what your nihilism is like.

So it's about finding motivation for you? The part in bold sounds a lot like your connection to 3 as well, that you desire recognition. I suppose this is one of the reasons why both 5 and 9 are often confused because they both got a connection to an id type and a head type.

And to me nihilism is more about lack of meaning and purpose in the world itself including myself. I am going to be boring and quote some lyrics by Dark Tranquillity that tend to explore the lower health levels of the 5 a lot:

Lost to Apathy
The unsaid tone of weak despair
Fail to resonate
Frayed ends of our binding threads
Will disintegrate
By the laws our phiysique state
Failure to communicate
None too sentient
Hear no, see no works its magic
Against all function
Ongoing choices the trials will end
Filter the nonsense and laugh at what's left
Indecision/nonvision what matters taken away

Look at the shell that is you
Empty, fragile, weak
Soon the battle is over
Lost to apathy

So overcome with pointless tears
To test pain receptors
Nothing matters ever here
Put up a nonreaction
These eyes will never see
Covered up from reality

Look at the shell that is you
Empty, fragile, weak
Soon the battle is over
Lost to apathy

The unknown world that you deny
No priority
Cannot fail if you never start
How predictable
I want to know where did it end
For madness to start
Always the sceptic never the part
Introvertive/nondescriptive
It matters not, not

Look at the shell that is you
Empty, fragile, weak

Look at the shell that is you
Empty, fragile, weak
Soon the battle is over
Lost to apathy

The shell that is you
Empty, fragile, weak
Now the battle is over
Lost to apathy

In a way I think the lyrics speak to themselves but it's kind of like losing faith or losing sight of that which matters. More like giving up but refusing to let go driven by avarice and possibly greed too. There's a focus on meaninglessness and pointlessness. To me these lyrics are a great exposition of the unhealthy mindset of the 5 because you got all the defining features present. The very first verse describes what happens when you finally realize you are ultimately incompetent and you will never find truth. It's what the user Vincent on PerC wrote, when this happens, instead of letting go the 5 holds on to what they know with their dear life. Calling it "lost to apathy" isn't a far stretch at all since the knowledge that you'll never know results in apathy - it's all pointless to even try to understand since I'll never know. Dark Tranquillity also has a song called "The Fatalist" which is also captures it well:

The Fatalist
Eventually they'll come,
Beyond evening call and for eons
To clean the blood and
Salvage what remains

For once we've seen the fragile nature
And things behind its windows

If nothing nears, if nothing ends
We see what drives the hopeless
In between the closing yellow walls

The day has come, you are the fatalist
The day has come, you are the fatalist
You walk on soil, that dreams of beyond

Oh can we fight fatigue,
And be stunning sorrow
When all is preordain,
The sight will never end

The ones that Been in this realm,
The possibility and dream

Now lays in waste and ruin
And laid to waste again
You wash your hands in blood

You squander time and
You battle from eternity,
Is it another lame excuse?

The day has come, you are the fatalist
The day has come, you are the fatalist
You walk on soil, that dreams of beyond
You are the fatalist

If nothing changes, then nothing ends

Your thoughts are broken, your reasoning is flawed
Defense is just a night, when lies are all you got
No, you are the fatalist,
You are the fatalist

Oh easy can we see,
They fade behind your argument,
The fatalist-ed smile

The day has come, you are the fatalist
The day has come, you are the fatalist
You walk on soil, that dreams of beyond

The day has come,
The day has come,
You walk on ground that screams for murder

The rest of the lyrics pretty much go on explaining one of the 5 fears of turning into subhuman, probably the most expressed in the chorus. "The Fatalist" has a decidedly stronger 8 undercurrent with a vengeance/lust theme present "Now lays in waste and ruin/And laid to waste again" and so on.

I have seen Vanilla Sky, although it's been a long while. I've never seen Mr. Nobody. I think with a four film the protagonist is less fluid, more like the individual is the constant within an ever-changing world vs the other way around. But I don't really know. It seems it would be that way to me. Funnily, Bob Dylan is a four, and the premise of the film is that he went through different periods of his life where he was kind of reinventing himself, figuring himself out, so... who knows? I think Andrei Tarkovsky's The Mirror is a good example of a four (4w5) film; it can seem really similar to Tree of Life, but I think there's a difference. In The Mirror there is a real feeling of separateness, isolation while Tree of Life has an undercurrent of transcendentalism/unification. All of Terence Malick's films seem very INFP sx/sp nine to me, but maybe that's just because they resonate extremely strongly for me. He is the director who most closely depicts what goes on in my internal world.

Anyway, the mirror-

This is a montage from Tree of Life, which kind of bugs me (that it's not the original edit) but it's done well and gives the gist of the film, so-

Hm, yes, I see what you mean. Would identity be an important feature in a 9 story and if so, where would the focus lie? Success and recognition or finding oneself? Hm, I see what you mean with Tree of Life, from an sx 9 perspective, especially the scene with two cells merging.

 

[brainheart]

So it's about finding motivation for you? The part in bold sounds a lot like your connection to 3 as well, that you desire recognition. I suppose this is one of the reasons why both 5 and 9 are often confused because they both got a connection to an id type and a head type.

Yes, that's a good observation. Perhaps that's also why one and five are often confused as well, especially those on the 1w9/9w1 axis.

And to me nihilism is more about lack of meaning and purpose in the world itself including myself. I am going to be boring and quote some lyrics by Dark Tranquillity that tend to explore the lower health levels of the 5 a lot:

I also often feel an empty shell and lost to apathy, and that things are meaningless and pointless. What you say here, though, is different and I think worth noting-

The very first verse describes what happens when you finally realize you are ultimately incompetent and you will never find truth.

This need to find truth I think is incredibly five (also possibly six?) as well as the despair that comes when you realize this will never happen. I really don't feel a need to find truth, because I don't think there is such a thing as an ultimate truth, and honestly, I really don't care that there isn't. My guess is this where the sharp five thought vs fuzzy nine thought comes from. I feel no need for particulars when it comes to understanding. I much prefer the gist or the essence.

Hm, yes, I see what you mean. Would identity be an important feature in a 9 story and if so, where would the focus lie? Success and recognition or finding oneself? Hm, I see what you mean with Tree of Life, from an sx 9 perspective, especially the scene with two cells merging.

That's a good question. I'm inclined to say... all? I have zero interest in Harry Potter (I actually really dislike fantasy, I find it incredibly dull), but he's a good example of a nine story- the overlooked invisible kid who has hidden talents and is called to do great things. So in the midst he discovers himself, achieves, and is finally recognized as being someone who matters. I think that the goal of each nine is going to be different but I think what every nine needs to learn in order to grow is that they matter, and not even really to others, but to themselves. I know this is how it is for me. If I could one day say to myself, and really mean it, I matter to me and I am going to do these certain things because they matter to me and therefore 100% matter- well, that will be a big fucking day in my life.

There's this movie called Grace of my Heart and it is very much this sort of story. She dreams of being a singer but she pushes all of her personal desires to the side for years. Eventually she sees that her personal story and voice is worth sharing. This trailer is good because all of the things she says in here are so nine.

 

[Dying Acedia]

Well, I'm of the opinion that 9 is at the crown because acedia/sloth underlies all psychological deterioration (and conversely, it's antithesis underlies all growth). Otherwise, I think there's already a lot of good points here.

So it's about finding motivation for you?

This is true for me too. I usually have an idea of what I'm after, but it's like I can't put the pieces together. Like I'm constantly working with abstractions because there is no concrete motivation. It's very maddening, and usually I just go do something else (i.e. lazy nothingness) because I can't make it work in reality.

However, there are keys here and there that fill me with energy, and suddenly I find myself able to follow something to completion. It is like this morning, I was inspired to make an artwork about pink skies, but there are so many details in making that work, and let's face it, "pink sky" doesn't cover the whole picture of what I'm after. So eventually the inspiration dies and I have to find another wave to ride.

Filter the nonsense and laugh at what's left
Indecision/nonvision what matters taken away

The lyrics here, beautiful as they are, seem ironic to me. Indecision, but the writer seems so sure that what matters has taken away. All through it it seems so dark and pessimistic, but if there's really no meaning why even bother with that? I can understand the pain and loss, but not how this turns into nihilism. My nihilism is more like a blank stare. Like yes, there are things which matter in the world, but I'm really not a part of them.

In the end, it becomes, why should I care one way or the other? Things like "I calmly wondered whether I should have an accident with a razor" or "Shall I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?" resonate with me. Like it's funny, because it's true that they're really that equal, just no one really can bring themselves to say it. Thankfully I don't feel that way at the moment.

 

[Entropic]

The lyrics here, beautiful as they are, seem ironic to me. Indecision, but the writer seems so sure that what matters has taken away. All through it it seems so dark and pessimistic, but if there's really no meaning why even bother with that? I can understand the pain and loss, but not how this turns into nihilism. My nihilism is more like a blank stare. Like yes, there are things which matter in the world, but I'm really not a part of them.

In the end, it becomes, why should I care one way or the other? Things like "I calmly wondered whether I should have an accident with a razor" or "Shall I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?" resonate with me. Like it's funny, because it's true that they're really that equal, just no one really can bring themselves to say it. Thankfully I don't feel that way at the moment.

Because it is better to still believe in what you know and hold onto that than letting go. If you let go, you fall into complete despair, you lose yourself and your ego is lost. Total annihilation, lost in oblivion. It's exactly what the chorus says, "Look at the shell that is you/empty, fragile, weak/soon this battle is over/lost to apathy" because what you are grasping and holding onto is an illusion and it's weak. You realize this but yet you keep clutching because it's all you know or in other words, "it matters not, not", or to quote the lyrics of the song on the album that comes after it:

Never again
In perfect clarity
See the day in child like vision
Where does it lead from here?
On without that guidance
Disaster
Role model without a part
Our search is wider

Cast off those wide-eyed hopes and dreams
Mind matters, matters not

The truth that it doesn't matter just strongly conflicts with the fact that you want it to matter and the realization that it doesn't matter is what causes the sense of nihilism. It matters not, not. Mind matters, matters not.

I could essentially recommend anyone who's trying to get the unhealthy thinking of enneatype 5 to read up on Dark Tranquillity lyrics. Their later albums (from the Mind's I to recent) all contain at least one very 5-ish song.

 

[Dying Acedia]

I could essentially recommend anyone who's trying to get the unhealthy thinking of enneatype 5 to read up on Dark Tranquillity lyrics. Their later albums (from the Mind's I to recent) all contain at least one very 5-ish song.

I was just thinking that you seemed to have found a band that really resonates with the (unhealthy) 5 condition.

I think my means of salvation is more mythological. I feel, once I've reached a near nihilistic state, all is already lost. At that point, the only hope is to abandon ship. Death and rebirth. If one part of me has fallen into the insanity of meaninglessness, it is lost, and I can only hope my activities awaken another part of me that is motivated to take action. It comes as part of the natural selflessness that is 9. Just as I can absorb the qualities of those who surround me as if they were me, so too can I abandon myself as if it were not me.

For that reason, I think a 9ish song goes in the opposite direction. It abandons the pain and looks at it with fresh eyes. A clean state, as the wreckage is abandoned in favor of a beautiful hope on the horizon. One set of lyrics that comes to mind is Lounge in Formation, by The Action Design:

Sitting and waiting for something entertaining
To flow from a glowing screen
Washing right over your brain
Like a sickening sludge
Lounge in formation
Loss of sensation
What is the point of working
All the diligent day
If at the end you come home and say

"What a burden being a person
What a burden being alive"?

All about comfort
We like to walk in a line
We follow those from before us
Making mistakes (yeah)
Time after time
Let's dig deep
Let's find out what's inside
Let's never rest and never say

"What a burden being a person
What a burden being alive"
Take some pride in
Being a person
Take back your eyes
And be alive

 

[Entropic]

I was just thinking that you seemed to have found a band that really resonates with the (unhealthy) 5 condition.

I think my means of salvation is more mythological. I feel, once I've reached a near nihilistic state, all is already lost. At that point, the only hope is to abandon ship. Death and rebirth. If one part of me has fallen into the insanity of meaninglessness, it is lost, and I can only hope my activities awaken another part of me that is motivated to take action. It comes as part of the natural selflessness that is 9. Just as I can absorb the qualities of those who surround me as if they were me, so too can I abandon myself as if it were not me.

For that reason, I think a 9ish song goes in the opposite direction. It abandons the pain and looks at it with fresh eyes. A clean state, as the wreckage is abandoned in favor of a beautiful hope on the horizon. One set of lyrics that comes to mind is Lounge in Formation, by The Action Design:

Sitting and waiting for something entertaining
To flow from a glowing screen
Washing right over your brain
Like a sickening sludge
Lounge in formation
Loss of sensation
What is the point of working
All the diligent day
If at the end you come home and say

"What a burden being a person
What a burden being alive"?

All about comfort
We like to walk in a line
We follow those from before us
Making mistakes (yeah)
Time after time
Let's dig deep
Let's find out what's inside
Let's never rest and never say

"What a burden being a person
What a burden being alive"
Take some pride in
Being a person
Take back your eyes
And be alive

Huh, interesting, that kind of thinking is very foreign to me. How can you see the positivity of despair? Then it is not genuine.

 

[Dying Acedia]

Huh, interesting, that kind of thinking is very foreign to me. How can you see the positivity of despair? Then it is not genuine.

Well, the way I see it is this: within you resonates the idea that there is hope for the future. When you are lost, that idea ceases to resonate, and any attempts at positive thinking seem "fake." However, after you have died for some time (metaphorically), you are hit with something that resonates, which is that you are not living up to your potential. (Which is meaningful because it now resonates with you again.)

You may have had a good reason to despair originally, but with these newfound feelings perhaps you can bend reality and create a new solution. Perhaps it is not genuine, but why stay true to despair? I think the difference is in ego construction, where one (9) tends to see this as an entirely plausible option, to let go of what is causing despair and find something more positive. Whereas the other (5) sees this as impossible, precisely because you are always in it and cannot forget what caused the despair.

For example, say I've reached a point of hopelessness. There is no hope, and I might as well kill myself. What happens here? One, I let myself go. Morals are irrelevant in hopelessness, so do what's convenient. Future goals are pointless, no need to aspire to anything. But I have habits, so I don't just sit and do entirely nothing (though a lot of nothing is happening). I may make some half-assed attempt at taking my life, but it's more like "wonder what will happen if I do this?" and is more simply risky, careless behavior. More characteristically, I simply let go and take base-sum activity, because actually committing suicide goes against the wishes of the body (and requires more effort than a hopeless person cares to muster).

New hope can come from a number of areas:
1)realizations on the way to suicide: perhaps the body reacts to the intention to kill myself and I find the despair is replaced by my fear of death (a partial resetting of the mind to base state of being), or perhaps I take a drug intending to kill myself but I find something else to inspire me through that. Once that happens, the despair is erased because new hope was found through the body's will to live, and the new self suppresses the old self until it too finds a will to live (a self-fragmenting/cracked version of the "do nothing for a time and something hopeful will come" tactic)
2)clinging onto someone else: maybe I can forget myself and find new hope through adopting someone else's raison d'etre, or perhaps my despair will be seen and someone will care enough to fight for me (possibly 4-influence here)
3)do nothing for a long time: despair is mostly a feeling, and unless there is a chemical imbalance causing depression, over time habits lead to necessary new behaviors and those new behaviors create new thoughts which create a new self (i.e. a case of reconciling cognitive dissonance by siding with one's actions rather than with one's mind, which is encouraged by the despairing mind which desires its own destruction)


For the record, I don't see this as finding positivity within the despair so much as giving up (because it's hopeless) and eventually happening upon something that is promising. But if I haven't addressed your question you'll need to clarify how it still seems like it's positivity of despair.

 

[Entropic]

Well, the way I see it is this: within you resonates the idea that there is hope for the future. When you are lost, that idea ceases to resonate, and any attempts at positive thinking seem "fake." However, after you have died for some time (metaphorically), you are hit with something that resonates, which is that you are not living up to your potential. (Which is meaningful because it now resonates with you again.)

You may have had a good reason to despair originally, but with these newfound feelings perhaps you can bend reality and create a new solution. Perhaps it is not genuine, but why stay true to despair? I think the difference is in ego construction, where one (9) tends to see this as an entirely plausible option, to let go of what is causing despair and find something more positive. Whereas the other (5) sees this as impossible, precisely because you are always in it and cannot forget what caused the despair.

For example, say I've reached a point of hopelessness. There is no hope, and I might as well kill myself. What happens here? One, I let myself go. Morals are irrelevant in hopelessness, so do what's convenient. Future goals are pointless, no need to aspire to anything. But I have habits, so I don't just sit and do entirely nothing (though a lot of nothing is happening). I may make some half-assed attempt at taking my life, but it's more like "wonder what will happen if I do this?" and is more simply risky, careless behavior. More characteristically, I simply let go and take base-sum activity, because actually committing suicide goes against the wishes of the body (and requires more effort than a hopeless person cares to muster).

New hope can come from a number of areas:
1)realizations on the way to suicide: perhaps the body reacts to the intention to kill myself and I find the despair is replaced by my fear of death (a partial resetting of the mind to base state of being), or perhaps I take a drug intending to kill myself but I find something else to inspire me through that. Once that happens, the despair is erased because new hope was found through the body's will to live, and the new self suppresses the old self until it too finds a will to live (a self-fragmenting/cracked version of the "do nothing for a time and something hopeful will come" tactic)
2)clinging onto someone else: maybe I can forget myself and find new hope through adopting someone else's raison d'etre, or perhaps my despair will be seen and someone will care enough to fight for me (possibly 4-influence here)
3)do nothing for a long time: despair is mostly a feeling, and unless there is a chemical imbalance causing depression, over time habits lead to necessary new behaviors and those new behaviors create new thoughts which create a new self (i.e. a case of reconciling cognitive dissonance by siding with one's actions rather than with one's mind, which is encouraged by the despairing mind which desires its own destruction)


For the record, I don't see this as finding positivity within the despair so much as giving up (because it's hopeless) and eventually happening upon something that is promising. But if I haven't addressed your question you'll need to clarify how it still seems like it's positivity of despair.

No, I think you answered it just fine and this is very different to how I see it, especially to how you describe your relationship to your body. To me my body is needless to begin with and plays a very minor role in my identity. I am not sure if it's as much being unable to forget what's causing despair as much it being an inability to find answers. The 5 identifies with his mind so naturally he also makes the correlation between what he knows and his mind, leading to the conclusion that what you know defines who you are in some shape or form. It's very much like Descartes' cogito, ergo sum. As I translate it, I am the sum of my thoughts.

If it turns out that your thoughts are false, then the conclusion is that you are false and you should simply cease existence.

 

[Dying Acedia]

No, I think you answered it just fine and this is very different to how I see it, especially to how you describe your relationship to your body. To me my body is needless to begin with and plays a very minor role in my identity. I am not sure if it's as much being unable to forget what's causing despair as much it being an inability to find answers. The 5 identifies with his mind so naturally he also makes the correlation between what he knows and his mind, leading to the conclusion that what you know defines who you are in some shape or form. It's very much like Descartes' cogito, ergo sum. As I translate it, I am the sum of my thoughts.

If it turns out that your thoughts are false, then the conclusion is that you are false and you should simply cease existence.

Ah. I find myself occasionally concerned about the mind/identity issue from a metaphysical/spiritual standpoint. What happens to me after I die? If I live beyond this life, I might find myself unequipped to handle it, not having the power of the body to rely upon. In that regard, the mind seems more stable (though nothing is really assured).

I used to believe that I was something beyond my body, even cogito, ergo sum, but life happened, I fell into despair, and I saw the mind itself as part of the problem. It sounds paradoxical, but involved in that is the wish to cease to exist, and through that the mind acquiesces to total destruction and the body takes over because it chooses to live on. However, the mind is not something you can really 'reject' (as what do you reject with if you step out of the mind?). Besides, even the perception of the mind as a problem comes from the mind.

Escaping the mind feels more like the final goodbye as you leave your old home for the last time. Gradually, all of history greys. Sitting out in the sun. Getting day drunk. Even drawing or playing music, so long as the chatter of the mind is displaced. A few thoughts here and there, but not loud enough to really be aware of them. Eventually the body prompts a need for a mind: "how do I solve this problem?" or "suddenly I am idle. I do not like this. What should I do now?" And you gradually remember parts of yourself that are needed. The rest is forgotten, or shall we say, "willfully ignored."