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[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Differences between E1 and E8

kyuuei

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Aside from a short period when I was very traumatized, I have never had any trouble with the law, holding jobs, having relationships, being close to my family etc. But I will not sit and claim that the sadistic tendency is eradicated just because I haven't done any majorly sadistic thing in years. Self-awareness is not something to be lazy about once it's "accomplished." It's a life-long pursuit.

But I do not think that sadism is at the heart of the unhealthy type 8. It is a side-effect of the core of it, but not the star of the show. When I was at my worst in my dating life, I picked crappy dates on purpose to serve myself a bit of control in an area where I had none. If I got to choose bad boyfriends on my own terms, then I would feel better about the whole situation, regardless of the fact that at the end I was still CHOOSING to be with a bad boyfriend. It was a bad attempt at self preservation made by a stupid girl, but sadism is not at the heart of what we're about. Control is what we're trying to achieve.. at our best, we take control of the things that give us joy, and we accept the terms of control that are outside of our grasp. At our worst, we start throwing tantrums like children.. forcing control away from us, trying to take it in things we KNOW we cannot have it in, and worse.

Sadism comes with that territory.. but it is not at the heart of it. It's a stepping stone on the way down.. I fear our level of ill health is far more dismal than mere sadism and anti-socialism.

He did not claim a super-hero "complex" at your best. That sort of complex is what he'd describe for type 7 Narcissist.

Type 8s are often dictated as self-sacrificing at their best.. as if we finally achieved our goal of over-coming our self-preserving ways by saving others and putting ourselves in potentially great peril (either physically, in career situations, etc.) for the overall good of others. It is a disastrous read, and leaves little hope for the average person that happens to be a type 8.

Either I'm struggling to stop terrorizing people around me, or I am struggling to continuously help others even at the expense of myself.. there is no balance in these descriptions. There is no breath of fresh air, where one can maintain anything. Self-awareness is a life-long journey.. but there is no stage of maintaining one's self in the type 8 descriptions. We are always wrong, or always struggling to stop being wrong.

Yeah I would probably not try to "right" it - that's the difference. I also have two withdrawn types in my tritype and a chronic illness which left me speaking in a whisper, and an SO blindspot so dealing with other people is not my favorite thing. Therefore I'm more selfish in this regard. That's another reason it was a shitty example.

Makes sense enough. I agree that, if given no other choice, I'm not going to have my stomach cramping and be in pain just because there isn't a clean facility to use. I'd probably still, in the end, use the facility regardless of its clean status if I really needed to go. I wouldn't feel bad for 'adding' to a toilet that won't flush, true, but I would hesitate to give the owner time to correct the problem before deciding on such a thing. Fixing it is much better, to me, than just adding to a problem.

Sigh.. why is it so hard for people to understand pure and utter selfishness with no ulterior motive, no point to prove, no justice, no "righting," and nothing but a will to get exactly what you want ? Is this really that hard to swallow?? =p

Because this is false security. There is no pure selfishness without these other concepts. You cannot just decide "Well, that trash can is full, so I can throw this paper cup down if I want. They didn't leave their trash cans open for me to do the right thing, and I'm not going to carry trash around for another few miles before finding another can." You're making more work for someone else somewhere, you're hurting the environment--everything you do has an impact on those around you. There is no selfishness without hurting others in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish, but that does not mean it didn't hurt the other party.

Say someone with no where to go (due to their own crappy decisions) asks you to stay at your place. You agree, but under certain terms. They fail to meet those terms, so you have to throw them out, otherwise they're mistaking your kindness as weakness. Even though you are being selfish in that regard, it isn't necessarily bad.. infact, it is something many people would do. But it also is to the detriment of the other party whether it is overall bad or not. We all must pick and choose our battles of selfishness.. if you could hold your bowels and use a facility that is in order, why would you just say, "No, fuck that, I want to use this one and I'm not going out of my way for others just because this is all fucked up"? It doesn't make any sense. In the trash example.. I would secure my trash and carry it until I found another receptacle suitable enough to deposit it in, even if that mean leaving it in my car until I got home, or walking into a place out of my way.

Nothing is without consequence.
 

violet_crown

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Edit: I'm not sure if I'd call Eights sadists by nature. More so than Ones, maybe, but I know some very nice Eights, like @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7254" target="_blank">Wind-Up Rex</a>, who I would never call sadistic. Unless you agree with that definition of Eight-ish "sadism", Rex?


:whistling:
 

Animal

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But I do not think that sadism is at the heart of the unhealthy type 8. It is a side-effect of the core of it, but not the star of the show.

I love to debate theory and re-interpret and have original ideas. However, before we get too far into this, we probably need to figure out what basic premise we are working with.

What sources do YOU study for enneagram? Where did you build your understanding of an enneagram 8? Is it based on books & sources, or your experience on a website, or is it based on lust & vengeance, or what? We can't really have a conversation about what an 8 "is" if we're not agreeing on a basic premise, so that source and reference point needs to be mentioned.

I'm not saying this to disqualify your points. You are making some interesting points and arguments. I just genuinely want to know what angle you are coming from in terms of your understanding of 8 and enneagram in general.

sadism is not at the heart of what we're about. Control is what we're trying to achieve.. at our best, we take control of the things that give us joy, and we accept the terms of control that are outside of our grasp. At our worst, we start throwing tantrums like children.. forcing control away from us, trying to take it in things we KNOW we cannot have it in, and worse.

Then let us go back to the original question.
What would you say is the difference between E8 and and E1?

Also, what would you say is the difference between E8 and E7?

Another question: if at our worst we throw tantrums and at our best we take control, how would you explain the disintegration to 5 and the integration to 2? How does this manifest in an 8, in general, and how does it manifest in you?

Sadism comes with that territory.. but it is not at the heart of it. It's a stepping stone on the way down.. I fear our level of ill health is far more dismal than mere sadism and anti-socialism.
Worse than that?! What could be worse? =p

What do you think is at the heart of us then, and why do you think it's worse?

What does lust mean to you?

Type 8s are often dictated as self-sacrificing at their best.. as if we finally achieved our goal of over-coming our self-preserving ways by saving others and putting ourselves in potentially great peril (either physically, in career situations, etc.) for the overall good of others. It is a disastrous read, and leaves little hope for the average person that happens to be a type 8.
Well, it makes sense within the system. What you just described is an integration to the healthy parts of 2, in essence, and that is the basic premise of 8 within enneagram context: 8 integrates to 2; thus being more self-sacrificing, generous, vulnerable in love, etc.

Either I'm struggling to stop terrorizing people around me, or I am struggling to continuously help others even at the expense of myself.. there is no balance in these descriptions. There is no breath of fresh air, where one can maintain anything. Self-awareness is a life-long journey.. but there is no stage of maintaining one's self in the type 8 descriptions. We are always wrong, or always struggling to stop being wrong.
Do you see that balance in the other type descriptions?

This is sort of true, and I had the same reaction when I first read it, but did you read the rest of the book? There's very little of that for the other types. If you want that spiritual growth lesson, read Maitri. Maitri does give a very flattering description of 8 compared to Naranjo, and shows how to grow spiritually. Have you read that?


Because this is false security. There is no pure selfishness without these other concepts. You cannot just decide "Well, that trash can is full, so I can throw this paper cup down if I want. They didn't leave their trash cans open for me to do the right thing, and I'm not going to carry trash around for another few miles before finding another can." You're making more work for someone else somewhere, you're hurting the environment--everything you do has an impact on those around you. There is no selfishness without hurting others in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish, but that does not mean it didn't hurt the other party.

Say someone with no where to go (due to their own crappy decisions) asks you to stay at your place. You agree, but under certain terms. They fail to meet those terms, so you have to throw them out, otherwise they're mistaking your kindness as weakness. Even though you are being selfish in that regard, it isn't necessarily bad.. infact, it is something many people would do. But it also is to the detriment of the other party whether it is overall bad or not. We all must pick and choose our battles of selfishness.. if you could hold your bowels and use a facility that is in order, why would you just say, "No, fuck that, I want to use this one and I'm not going out of my way for others just because this is all fucked up"? It doesn't make any sense. In the trash example.. I would secure my trash and carry it until I found another receptacle suitable enough to deposit it in, even if that mean leaving it in my car until I got home, or walking into a place out of my way.

Nothing is without consequence.

This is true. That is why I equated that selfishness with sadism. Because in the wider picture, what feels to me like selfishness is actually having consequences which hurt others. And deep down, I would know that, but when I'm unhealthy I would still take what I want for myself, in some situations, while being magnanimous and even generous in other situations with people I consider "on my side" or who I trust. This behavior is congruent with what I've read about the sickness of type 8, the sadism, the lust & vengeance, the view of things as a dog-eat-dog world, etc.

So I do wonder: when you're unhealthy, would you think through all the consequences, the way you did here?
 

Entropic

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For the record; Naranjo describes 5s pretty much as unemotional and apathetic robots hell-bent on applying nihilism to life because we're so sensitive and emotional that pretending to be anything else we'd lose our minds. I am not sure I find that description overly flattering by any means.
 

madhatter

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My father says by contrast that he has ideas for books, but he doesn't have the patience to sit and write it. He also has the idea to play music, but he doesn't have the patience to organize. But when he is doing something, for a relatively short period of time, he is pretty intensely focused.

That sounds like me when I'm disintegrated, haha, which is probably more often than I care to admit. I don't have the patience or the discipline. When left to my own devices, I rarely finish anything.
 

madhatter

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For the record; Naranjo describes 5s pretty much as unemotional and apathetic robots hell-bent on applying nihilism to life because we're so sensitive and emotional that pretending to be anything else we'd lose our minds. I am not sure I find that description overly flattering by any means.

No one is spared from Naranjo. Naranjo can go piss up a rope. XD
 

Entropic

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No one is spared from Naranjo. Naranjo can go piss up a rope. XD

Indeed. I think I should go find some golden quotes of his just to prove the point XD
 

Entropic

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Neediness in ennea-type V is deeply hidden in the psyche, behind the veil of indifference, resignation, stoic renunciation.

"Meanness" with its connotation of an unknowing failure to give would come closer to capturing the dominant aspect of ennea-type V strategy to face the world: self-distancing and the giving up of relationships. Still better, however, is to speak of being detached, withdrawn, autistic, and schizoid.
The symbol of aloof retentiveness has not only been observed but also received much attention in contemporary psychology.
When in his study of schizophrenic patients at his clinic he described the syndrome that he proposed to call schizoid, the following were the main group of traits he observed to be the most frequent:

1. Unsociable, quiet, reserved, serious (humorless)

2. Timid, shy, with fine feelings, sensitive, nervous, excitable, fond of nature and books
3. Pliable, kindly, honest, indifferent, silent

He says, "we must say: the schizoid temperament lies between the extremes of excitability and dullness, in the same way a cycloid temperament lies between the extremes of cheerfulness and sadness."
Kretschmer had the merit of pointing out the polarity between the hypersensitivity and insensitivity in this personality: sometimes it is one or the other that is the chief characteristic, while in others an alternation or a transition from early "hyperaesthesia" to late apathy.
[Citing Kretschmer]: "He alone, however, has the key to the schizoid temperament who has clearly recognized that the majority of schizoids are not either over-sensitive or cold, but they are sensitive and cold at the same time, and, indeed, in quite different relational mixtures."
[Citing Kretschmer]: "Out of our schizoid material we can form a continuous series, beginning with what I call the 'Hölderin type,' those extremely sensitive, abnormally tender, constantly wounded, mimosa-like natures, who are 'all-nerves' - and winding up to those cold, almost lifeless ruins left by the ravages of a severe attack of dementia praecox, who glimmer dimly in the corner of of the asylum, dull-witted as cows."
The unsociable (Or "autistic") characteristic of his schizoid is something that could be understood either in relation to hypersensitivity or sensitivity towards others, as is the case of those sensitive natures that "seek as far as possible to avoid and deaden all stimulation from the outside; they close the shutters of their houses, in order to lead a dream-life fantastic, poor in deeds and rich in thought (Hölderin) in the soft muffled gloom of the interior.
These are just the first couple of pages. I don't know about you, but I can't say I find these descriptions overly flattering. While I realize they are also exaggerations that's kind of the point. The message wouldn't be as powerful if he didn't paint such a bleak picture of each type.
 

VagrantFarce

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So they're both angry types - issues tend to revolve around physical presence and the expulsion of energy. It's all in the gut.

  • 8s have energy coming out of every orifice - anger is positive, it fills the room and gets things moving. It proves you're alive. When egotistical, there's an over-identification with that boisterousness and a sense of entitled toward it (hence the "lust" and "sadistic" qualifiers).
  • 1s are tough to get a grip on. They have the same energy, but it comes across as far more rigid and aloof. It's less explosive, but no less direct. It's not about being larger than life, it's about knowing the best place to put your energy toward. There can be a very judgemental attitude, especially towards "right" and "wrong" behaviour.
Any good?
 

miss fortune

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as for the OP, I'd never leave somewhere a bigger mess when the option of reporting the situation to the management and then watching as they clean and swishing in as soon as they have finished exists... I've done that on many occasions... fuckers had better clean me a restroom or there will be PROBLEMS! :2ar15: (and by problems I mean me getting other people present pissed off about the situation as well... what's more fun than inciting an angry mob?)

as for taking what the world has taken from me, that's just stupid... I didn't start out with shit so how can I take nothing back? :huh:

and to the point of being a sadistic bastard that generally takes too much effort unless someone has REALLY crossed the line and needs to be set straight... and it takes quite a bit to earn my full vengeance raining down on them (and it is truly glorious when it happens, if I do say so myself!), otherwise I happily stick to my position of being an opportunist with a heart (I won't screw you over if you don't deserve it, but if you do...). I just want to get through life and I don't require all that much :)
 

EJCC

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What would you say is the difference between E8 and and E1?
I have some brief thoughts on this -- and since this wasn't directed at me, please, [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION], correct me if I'm wrong and/or add on to this if you kinda/sorta agree but think it's too thin, or something.

I agree that E8 is about control. I also agree that E1 is about perfectionism. But what I've found is that the E1 need for perfection is only correlated with a desire to take charge to fix things. They only need to take charge if something is wrong and no one is doing anything to fix it. If things are going well, then there's nothing for them to improve, and they can leave it. For E8, as I understand it, there's a need to control and dominate for the sake of power -- and E1 couldn't care less about power.
 

Animal

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I have some brief thoughts on this -- and since this wasn't directed at me, please, [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION], correct me if I'm wrong and/or add on to this if you kinda/sorta agree but think it's too thin, or something.

I agree that E8 is about control. I also agree that E1 is about perfectionism. But what I've found is that the E1 need for perfection is only correlated with a desire to take charge to fix things. They only need to take charge if something is wrong and no one is doing anything to fix it. If things are going well, then there's nothing for them to improve, and they can leave it. For E8, as I understand it, there's a need to control and dominate for the sake of power -- and E1 couldn't care less about power.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong. Type 8's biggest fear is being overpowered by others which would obviously lead to a desire for power and to be in control. Type 1's biggest fear is being morally corrupt, breaking their own moral code so to speak; so yes, this would lead to a compulsive need to improve things because if they just let things be then they're morally corrupt.

However, these are just pieces of a puzzle. Psychology is complicated. A person wouldn't "only" want to fix things because nobody else is doing it; the need to fix things would be part of their character and would be directed at themselves, too. A person wouldn't want control and power without being willing to crush others in order to get it when they're unhealthy. Like [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] said, nothing is without consequence. A selfish act is going to affect someone else. So, in order to be willing to chase power and control for yourself, and retain it at any cost, you're willing to take power and control away from someone else.

Any enneagram type, any person, would want power and control to some degree. I dont think there's a single person on earth who would prefer being out of control and powerless, if given the choice? But the difference is the scale of importance that it holds to E8, and that the e8 character is made up in such a way that you're willing to be a bit morally ambiguous, selfish, self-serving, and so forth, in order to acquire that power even at the cost of taking it away from someone else, which still falls under the category of sadism.
 

Animal

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[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

On a personal note - I had a hard time figuring out my enneagram type. I don't think I seek power over others. I don't enjoy hurting others for its own sake. But, it is impossible to get my own power away from me. My only concern is holding on to my own power. I have never seen it as "taking power away from someone else" but rather, just protecting myself. I have a very "draw a line in the sand" mentality. I will be generous, magnanimous, kind, honest, direct; and I will lay out my terms clearly. I'm very accepting of people's personalities and choices. I dominate my own destiny, and nobody can tell me what to do with my life, or control me, but I also have no real desire to control anyone else. As long as someone's personal errors don't get in my way, they're not my problem; but I'm always willing to listen to a friend complain, be there for them, help them build up strength so they can solve it on their own next time rather than depend on me.

But, in a situation where things do affect me, I don't let anyone walk on me. For instance, I rented an apartment in NYC where I saved up a lot of money, built rooms in a loft, and had people move in to the rooms. I also lived there. I charged really low rent; becasue of the way I broke up the apartment cleverly and the neighborhood and so forth, it was one of the best deals in the city. My own rent was pretty low, but I had initially laid out $10,000 of my own money to build the rooms so I thought that was fair; and their rent was still really really low. Everyone wanted to live there. I had a month to month situation; you can leave on a month's notice. It was easy to get someone else to fill the room fast. I did this for five years. I could have collected more rent but I was generous. I always had a security deposit just in case, but for the most part I just trusted people to do their own thing as long as they paid on time. However, a lot of people thought they could take advantage - would ask for even lower rent, refuse to pay the electric bill, would smoke inside when it was clearly laid out that this isn't allowed because I'm allergic to smoke, would repeatedly leave huge messes. I would give one warning, maybe two if the infraction wasn't too bad, when it came to smoke or messes or general disrespect. When it came to rent there were no warnings. If you can't pay rent, you come to me and explain your case, and show me that you'll have it by a set date, and I have to have some reason to trust you and to know that your security deposit will cover me if you don't follow through. If you just skip out on rent I'm not going to sit there and let you fuck me over. So, I would tell the person "I've used your security deposit to pay rent. If you can't get the security back to me by the end of this week I'll have to fill your room with someone else. You are welcome to stay on the couch until you find a place and keep your things in boxes in the common area." To me, that was generous, and really kind, but some people considered it ruthless. It's just obvious to me that people can't make their problems into *my* problem. I'll take on someone's problems out of kindness (ie, you can sleep on the couch) but I won't have patience for someone repeatedly not paying rent and leaving me in a vulnerable position.

When I first moved in, all the roommates left paychecks under the super's door. One girl simply didn't pay her portion for about six months, and I had no idea until the super told me that we were missing all of this rent. I sat her down with all the roommates, and questioned her about why she did this, how she could be so sneaky; basically shamed her until she was crying. It was not my conscious intention to shame her but that is what happened because she put me in a vulnerable position and she was deceptive, and she may not have realized that as nice as I am, I don't take any shit from anyone under any circumstance. I did not insult her, but simply asked questions until she was crying and saying she would find some way to get the money to us or borrow it or something. After that, I took control and collected everyone's rent myself from then on so that I couldn't be deceived anymore ; and needless to say, I kicked her out.

Another girl , who was a great roommate, was questioning me about some of my choices - how much I charged, how I layed things out, etc. She questioned me relentlessly, asking me to bring up numbers and math that I'd worked out three years prior. I finally said to her, "If you want to start an apartment, save up thousands of dollars to build rooms, manage it, go on craigslist to find roommates, interview people, keep it clean, put your name on the lease; be my guest, but if you live in my apartment, you pay wht you agree to pay, and agree to my rules." I not only got my point across, but earned her respect to such a degree that she actually "looks up to me" and comes to me for advice. We're still friends.

So I would not say I'm controlling, domineering, or power-seeking as much as, I just won't put up with any level of deception or bullshit if it affects *me* and *my* life and choices. When I'm in charge, I don't take well to being told I should do things another way - a lot of complicated math and reason goes into figuring out how to be a leader and run a place. These sort of principles are firm within me. If you try to take away what's mine, or step on my territory so that I can't be comfortable there, I'll extract you from the situation as politely, directly, honestly, and compassionately as I can, but still firmly; and if you deceive me, I'll let that be known, even publicly if that's the only way I'm going to get money out of you that you owe me and you deceived me out of.

To sum it up, I don't get off on having power over others. I'd rather be left to my own devices and not be THREATENED or OVERPOWERED by others. I will do what it takes to ensure that this is the case.

This is what I'll be like for my whole life, and I would not consider it unhealthy. Some of the more sadistic things I did when I was unhealthy, years ago, were unwarranted.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I'm going to approach this my usual way, for whatever it's worth.

1s navigate people and society in an anticipating, correcting way. 1s have somewhat of a reputation for being crusaders but their personality is only so condusive to actually crusading because there's a lot of cautious pausing to reassess what needs to be done. It's rather dependent on the environment. 8s are much more self-determined and aggressive. They are more inclined to set their eyes on a prize and say "over hell or high water, consequences be damned". They are pursuers through and through.

I think the difference between 1s and 8s that's much more obvious and tangible to people is an emotional difference. 1s are a type that almost indiscriminately suppress their emotions. A 1 seeks to achieve things in spite of their emotions, attempting to divorce it from their convictions. This can work, or it can just result in a bad case of denial. 8s on the other hand embrace their emotions much more. 8s are willing to embrace the power of emotions and don't seem particularly ashamed of emotional justification for things. Passion vs dispassion is one the biggest differences between the 1 and the 8 I think.
 

Savitri

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Actual bathroom situation happened to me once. I got management to clean the bathroom.

My tush got a clean toilet to sit on. Imagine that.
 

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Actual bathroom situation happened to me once. I got management to clean the bathroom.

My tush got a clean toilet to sit on. Imagine that.

.... happened to you *once* ?


I guess that's another difference between me and the other people on this thread.

I lived in Brooklyn, NYC for 5 years.
When you're working your ass off to pay NYC rent, who has time to wait around for management?
 

Entropic

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.... happened to you *once* ?


I guess that's another difference between me and the other people on this thread.

I lived in Brooklyn, NYC for 5 years.
When you're working your ass off to pay NYC rent, who has time to wait around for management?

Yeah. I would just go to another place with a toilet if possible. If that one is crappy too... well that sucks for me lol. I mean, I could do it on the street if I must. That's not an impossibility assuming you can hide enough in a corner somewhere.
 

Entropic

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Anyway, this video is such a great exposition of the unhealthy 1 mind:


I can't think of any unhealthy 8 example as of this moment.
 

Savitri

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.... happened to you *once* ?


I guess that's another difference between me and the other people on this thread.

I lived in Brooklyn, NYC for 5 years.
When you're working your ass off to pay NYC rent, who has time to wait around for management?

I tend to not go to public restrooms. And yes on that particular day, it was nice and chill.
 
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