[Type 1] E1 Fear of Corruption, how does it manifest?

[Vergil]

Hmm.. would you say that criticizing yourself before others can would help you avoid feeling bad about criticism, so actually while you convince yourself it's for the sake of being right, it's also self-protection? Armor of sorts?

It is indeed like an armor. It's like priming yourself for the assault that is to come from outside.

"I have already criticized myself, so I know what kind of feelings are likely to be evoked within me. I am therefore better prepared to handle those feelings when people start their onslaught."

 

[EJCC]

It is indeed like an armor. It's like priming yourself for the assault that is to come from outside.

"I have already criticized myself, so I know what kind of feelings are likely to be evoked within me. I am therefore better prepared to handle those feelings when people start their onslaught."

Really! That is not at all how I approach it. (How I approach it is on the previous page.)

... interesting!

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=17912]Vergil[/MENTION] [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

That is very interesting that you both approach it differently. o0
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] - do you know your tritype and MBTI ?

 

[EJCC]

EJCC - do you know your tritype and MBTI ?

They're both in my sig.

As I understand it, type 1 + ENTP is extremely uncommon, while my type (discounting the 7 head fix) is much more common. So that may be part of it.

Also, the idea of an "assault from outside" is not something I relate to at all, as my type does not include self-pres (first or second), 6, or 5.

 

[Azure Flame]

They're both in my sig.

As I understand it, type 1 + ENTP is extremely uncommon, while my type (discounting the 7 head fix) is much more common. So that may be part of it.

Also, the idea of an "assault from outside" is not something I relate to at all, as my type does not include self-pres (first or second), 6, or 5.

Actually I bet the 9 wing has a lot to do with the "assault from the outside." The way I describe 9's is that they are an objecting passing through space being absorbed into other peoples' agendas, often forgetting their own agendas. For this reason 9's often lose sight of what they need. The 1w9 would probably mean he is unaware of himself that he has to figure it out before others do, because when he doesn't have himself figured out, the boundaries are almost completely open to anyone with input whether he knows it or not.

as an 8w9, The only time my boundaries are completely up 100% is when all of my needs are met. However I'm often oblivious to what those needs are, so my mind is usually open to others telling me what I need. At this point I absorb the information, try to metabolize it, and if it pisses me off I spit it out and get hurt. This actually feels very much like a form of assault from the outside that I'm constantly defending myself against. My identity often disappears when I stop moving or making decisive action.

 

[Animal]

They're both in my sig.

As I understand it, type 1 + ENTP is extremely uncommon, while my type (discounting the 7 in my trifix) is much more common. So that may be part of it.

Yeah. [MENTION=17912]Vergil[/MENTION] and I have a similar issue - if anyone in the world is correctly typed at 1, it's her.... but both of us don't always fit the "persona'' because she's ENTP and I'm Ne-F (Ne/Fe | Ti) type 8, plus we have fixes at 5 and 4, so we're more similar to each other in many ways than we are to people of our own core. But the core differences are still there.

Hmm, any theories for why ENTP 1 would be so uncommon?

Also sorry - I missed your sig

Also, the idea of an "assault from outside" is not something I relate to at all, as my type does not include self-pres (first or second), 6, or 5.

Ah, makes sense.

It's interesting though - you type at SO instinct and yet don't need social approval, don't feel averse to criticism? How does the SO manifest with your inner critic?

 

[Vergil]

Really! That is not at all how I approach it. (How I approach it is on the previous page.)

... interesting!

I used to be my own fortress...quite literally.
Criticism of the self in solitude is for improvement. Criticism of the self as a preemptive strike is damage control. I do both.

...and my unusual MBTI-Enneagram combination is the root of some of the above behaviors, I guess.

 

[Azure Flame]

I used to be my own fortress...quite literally.
Criticism of the self in solitude is for improvement. Criticism of the self as a preemptive strike is damage control. I do both.

...and my unusual MBTI-Enneagram combination is the root of some of the above behaviors, I guess.

read my above post about the 9 wing tell me what you think.

 

[Animal]

I used to be my own fortress...quite literally.
Criticism of the self in solitude is for improvement. Criticism of the self as a preemptive strike is damage control. I do both.

...and my unusual MBTI-Enneagram combination is the root of some of the above behaviors, I guess.

^ Do you think that can have to do with being 5 fixed, not to mention 4, too? Both are withdrawn types.

 

[Vergil]

Actually I bet the 9 wing has a lot to do with the "assault from the outside." The way I describe 9's is that they are an objecting passing through space being absorbed into other peoples' agendas, often forgetting their own agendas. For this reason 9's often lose sight of what they need. The 1w9 would probably mean he is unaware of himself that he has to figure it out before others do, because when he doesn't have himself figured out, the boundaries are almost completely open to anyone with input whether he knows it or not.

as an 8w9, The only time my boundaries are completely up 100% is when all of my needs are met. However I'm often oblivious to what those needs are, so my mind is usually open to others telling me what I need. At this point I absorb the information, try to metabolize it, and if it pisses me off I spit it out and get hurt. This actually feels very much like a form of assault from the outside that I'm constantly defending myself against. My identity often disappears when I stop moving or making decisive action.

I'm a coconut.
To those whom I care about, my boundaries are flexible as hell. I am not as patient with outsiders. I don't care much. So, long as I have not violated any rules (mine, or, legal, organizational, etc.), any further expectations I do not meet are of no concern to me. So the first bit in bold is true only for friends. I am willing to consider even the most outrageous suggestions because I feel uncertain.


As for the second bit, I am almost always open to input, I do not accept things until I have thought them through. I would like to think that I am pretty good at figuring myself out and I manage to weed out the accurate from the inaccurate, etc., given sufficient time. That is not like assault to me.

What is assault to me, however, is quite literally an assault by means of words. Criticism is something I have a very hard time dealing with, but if others criticize me, rather than telling them off, I just take it in and see which parts are applicable and which are not. I have also noticed that it is easiest to understand a person, their motivation, their disposition towards you, etc., in situations where they are allowed to pass judgement on you. So, the manner of criticism, the words they use, the reasons they give...all of it is an insight more into them than me. So, if I am ever faced with a situation where I have judged poorly enough to be at the receiving end of much chastisement from other people (those who know my actions and how I failed) I will use it to learn both of my faults and the faults of others.

The only part the preemptive self-criticism helps with is emotional management. I do not like to make emotional displays and try my level best to hold it in, as if I were "taking it like a man" So, if I criticize myself in advance, I will know what feelings to be watchful for and how to deal with them when people point their high and mighty fingers at me. =/

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION] - I have answered.

 

[Vergil]

^ Do you think that can have to do with being 5 fixed, not to mention 4, too? Both are withdrawn types.

Could be.. I still do test as a 5...So i definitely see a possibility

 

[EJCC]

Actually I bet the 9 wing has a lot to do with the "assault from the outside." The way I describe 9's is that they are an objecting passing through space being absorbed into other peoples' agendas, often forgetting their own agendas. For this reason 9's often lose sight of what they need. The 1w9 would probably mean he is unaware of himself that he has to figure it out before others do, because when he doesn't have himself figured out, the boundaries are almost completely open to anyone with input whether he knows it or not.

as an 8w9, The only time my boundaries are completely up 100% is when all of my needs are met. However I'm often oblivious to what those needs are, so my mind is usually open to others telling me what I need. At this point I absorb the information, try to metabolize it, and if it pisses me off I spit it out and get hurt. This actually feels very much like a form of assault from the outside that I'm constantly defending myself against. My identity often disappears when I stop moving or making decisive action.

Very interesting. Sounds like that's probably a big part of it, then.

What would be an example of a situation like in your 2nd paragraph?

Hmm, any theories for why ENTP 1 would be so uncommon?

From this chart, it looks like most 1s are SJ (though INxJ are often 1s, also). It makes intuitive sense for most 1s to be SJ because of the focus on rules, rightness/wrongness, etc. And it makes intuitive sense for Perceivers to not often be 1s, because 1s tend to be a bit rigid and set in their ways, which Perceivers generally aren't.

Also sorry - I missed your sig

No problem.

Ah, makes sense.

It's interesting though - you type at SO instinct and yet don't need social approval, don't feel averse to criticism? How does the SO manifest with your inner critic?

On the contrary, I feel incredibly averse to criticism, and I definitely need social approval. (Check out what I bolded in fidelia's earlier quote; she and I are both 1w2 so/sx, which is why I related to so much of it, and why she and I tend to "vibe" similarly (or so I've been told).) It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.

And, on reflection, I have been known to use self-deprecation as a protective shield, in some (rare) situations. But the mindset is different.

Vergil's mindset (to contrast):

"I have already criticized myself, so I know what kind of feelings are likely to be evoked within me. I am therefore better prepared to handle those feelings when people start their onslaught."

My mindset:

"I have already criticized myself, so if you criticized me, you'd be redundant. You can't get any satisfaction from insulting me when I already knew that your insults were correct. Old news. Not a shock to me."

So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I think that I definitely need social approval and don't like criticism. Probably one of the ways I tend to deal with it is (in certain circumstances) point out all the things that I've already thought of that are a problem to the other person (whether in my work, or personally), so that they understand that I have put thought into it and that I am not blind to what is there.

I'm even pretty open to considering criticism, once I have a chance to think it over, even if it isn't from someone I like. I've learned over time to evaluate the source and let unqualified or self-interested criticism affect me less. I used to take any negative comment regarding me as a valid evaluation of my worth to others. I realize now that sometimes that sort of thing isn't even about me, but about where the other person is at.

What stings is when I realize that the other person's criticism is absolutely true AND I didn't see it before. Then it is not resentment towards them that I feel, but just deep and extreme embarrassment. I will resent and even publicly resist (thought privately feel the sting of) criticism that seems unfair, mocking, or unthinkingly public and will deeply distrust the person for a long time afterwards, even if I have forgiven them.

I would say that my mum is a enneagram 1 ENFJ. She definitely experiences things differently than I do - feels deeply guilty about things that most people wouldn't think twice about, while also being much more outspoken than I would be in the moment and then regretting doing so later on. She feels right a lot of the time and wouldn't be as likely to say she was wrong though. She'd be more likely to regret the way she expressed something rather than that she felt that way.

I often have difficulty finding a balance between expressing my opinions and judgements openly and at the right time, and wanting to find common ground with the other person. It often results in me reserving judgement at the time, but then feeling resentment later on that then can't be expressed because it seems like the issue is too petty or that it is too late to do so. However, as patterns emerge of certain behaviours, sometimes one incident can be the straw that breaks the camel's back and then the other person hears everything all at once, which isn't really fair and it appears that I am storing up problems to bear grudges about, when it is really that I am trying so hard to seem fair and reasonable, that sometimes I underestimate how strongly I actually feel until it just comes rushing out unexpectedly. (And I feel horribly embarrassed at having said more than I meant to or that I became emotional in front of the person).

Usually I take a long time weighing whether the potential negativity of criticism has benefits that outweigh the fallout. I think I am reluctant to criticize to a fault, as I keep myself in other people's shoes and probably I'm more sensitive that many of them are. It still doesn't change what I think though, and that too has caused problems sometimes. At times I don't see the point of bringing something up, but it can come off to others as silently judging them. I'd be open to expressing my views if they solicited my opinion, or if I was very close to them, but not otherwise.

 

[Azure Flame]

Very interesting. Sounds like that's probably a big part of it, then.

What would be an example of a situation like in your 2nd paragraph?

From this chart, it looks like most 1s are SJ (though INxJ are often 1s, also). It makes intuitive sense for most 1s to be SJ because of the focus on rules, rightness/wrongness, etc. And it makes intuitive sense for Perceivers to not often be 1s, because 1s tend to be a bit rigid and set in their ways, which Perceivers generally aren't.

No problem.

On the contrary, I feel incredibly averse to criticism, and I definitely need social approval. (Check out what I bolded in fidelia's earlier quote; she and I are both 1w2 so/sx, which is why I related to so much of it, and why she and I tend to "vibe" similarly (or so I've been told).) It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.

And, on reflection, I have been known to use self-deprecation as a protective shield, in some (rare) situations. But the mindset is different.

Vergil's mindset (to contrast):

My mindset:

So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.

An example of my second paragraph would be like when in the military, someone walks up to me and says:

"Here's what's wrong with you and you need to fix it!"

I immediately think, "hmm, honest feedback? Lets hear it, I'm all for feedback and bettering myself."

He says, "You need to stop being arrogant. you're overconfident in your abilities. You have a sense of entitlement and ..."

I sit there and think, "hmm, I do?" I end up nodding in agreement saying, "Hmm, I'll work on these things."

I go back to my room and think it over. Then I'll realize, "no... wait a minute, I don't have a sense of entitlement at all. Where the hell is that coming from? Arrogant? I don't even know what it means to be arrogant. I'm the humblest person ever. Overconfident? I know exactly what I can and cannot do, how is that overconfident? I've not once in my life said I can do something that I can't do."

Then I stop and think, "well, I suspect they're wrong. I don't agree with this feedback at all."

Later down the road they realize I didn't take their feedback seriously.

40 people tell me I"m arrogant, overconfident, sense of entitlement, and that I need to be "more humble" and take their advice.

I sit there and I say, "what? I'm very humble, I do take your advice, but you don't understand."

But over time when you have every person who sees you telling you the same shit over and over you start to believe it yourself, no matter how strong minded you are.

Somewhere along the line, people will often tell me how I feel. I don't know why, but that frustrates the HELL out of me. If I am aware of how I feel before someone tells me, their words won't make much of a difference. But when I have no idea how I feel and someone tells me, "You're feeling X Y Z" it just sinks in almost immediately like they're programming me how to feel, and I get angry and have to force it out of my head. Its really wierd how it works. But if I'm in love, or I'm really angry, often times people don't mess with me because I usually know exactly how I feel.

 

[Vergil]

An example of my second paragraph would be like when in the military, someone walks up to me and says:

"Here's what's wrong with you and you need to fix it!"

I immediately think, "hmm, honest feedback? Lets hear it, I'm all for feedback and bettering myself."

He says, "You need to stop being arrogant. you're overconfident in your abilities. You have a sense of entitlement and ..."

I sit there and think, "hmm, I do?" I end up nodding in agreement saying, "Hmm, I'll work on these things."

I go back to my room and think it over. Then I'll realize, "no... wait a minute, I don't have a sense of entitlement at all. Where the hell is that coming from? Arrogant? I don't even know what it means to be arrogant. I'm the humblest person ever. Overconfident? I know exactly what I can and cannot do, how is that overconfident? I've not once in my life said I can do something that I can't do."

Then I stop and think, "well, I suspect they're wrong. I don't agree with this feedback at all."

Later down the road they realize I didn't take their feedback seriously.

40 people tell me I"m arrogant, overconfident, sense of entitlement, and that I need to be "more humble" and take their advice.

I sit there and I say, "what? I'm very humble, I do take your advice, but you don't understand."

But over time when you have every person who sees you telling you the same shit over and over you start to believe it yourself, no matter how strong minded you are.

Somewhere along the line, people will often tell me how I feel. I don't know why, but that frustrates the HELL out of me. If I am aware of how I feel before someone tells me, their words won't make much of a difference. But when I have no idea how I feel and someone tells me, "You're feeling X Y Z" it just sinks in almost immediately like they're programming me how to feel, and I get angry and have to force it out of my head. Its really wierd how it works. But if I'm in love, or I'm really angry, often times people don't mess with me because I usually know exactly how I feel.

Bold parts are VERY true for me as well. xD

 

[Vergil]

So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.

What you have chosen to make clear with the word "deaden", I chose to be a little more ambiguous about by using the words "preparing myself".

I think I've faced much difficulty with repression and I don't want to go back there. "Deaden" reminds me of that and I would rather not see myself resorting to such tactics in near future. Hence the difference in wording.

also, this

It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.

The outside is not exactly threatening, but it's not home. It's not a very comfortable place.
Too many eyes. xD