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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I understand that line of reasoning, but at the same time, most people straddle between the slightly-above-average to slightly-below-average health levels - as @Loki said, few of us could be considered truly "healthy" in an Enneagram sense.
    Yeah sometimes I feel like the highest level of enneagram health should be called "maturity" instead, it's more like a state of being emotionally or spiritually evolved to be at high health levels, and it doesn't happen by accident. You have to do the inner work to get there, unless both of your parents were loving, benevolent psychotherapists who raised you in some completely ideal environment where you were always able to thrive and grow into your best possible self. Those people are fortunate, they exist, but they aren't average. Most people have to come to that maturity the hard way. By doing the work themselves, and actually even someone with a near-perfect childhood and adolescence still would have to "overcome themselves" to grow, so even that person would have to do some work in adulthood, just probably not as much.

    And at least for my own descriptions, all that I am saying is meant to be personal commentary and not meant as any definitive conclusions about the types. As I already emphasized, it's my opinion and my feelings. It's actually a funny example of the mismatch between me and 4s that both you and another 4 have raised objections to my posts in here, when I don't really feel like there's anything in my posts to object - in my opinion, you can't really object to someone's personal feelings; they just are. Maybe you could object to the soundness of their origin, but not really to the existence of the feelings themselves. And regardless of reasoning, be it my MBTI preferences, my Enneagram defense mechanisms, my instinctual priorities, and/or my past experiences, I'm really just not that drawn to 4s, 8s, or 1s, healthy or not.
    I do agree with this. I seem to be attracted to 9s and 3s. I want to be near the 9s cool reserve and ability to "stay out of it" even if it turns out that the individual 9, in the long run, has the enneagram health level of a basement freezer in which bodies are quietly stored. Same for the 3s flashy charm, charisma and confidence. They've got it all under control. FABULOUS.

    I sometimes have had attractions in the past to 5s for a similar reason as 9s, but I prefer 9s as 5s can be waaaaay too inaccessible for me at times. And they've probably been terrified of me.

    It seems to me that general attraction or lack thereof is just natural fallout from combination of personality, behavior, experience, values, and other psyche elements, and many of the trends are going to hold true regardless of levels of health, since they're more amplifications than shifts. Even if I would take a healthy 4 over an unhealthy 9, there are still aspects of 4ness that are harder for me to deal with, and aspects of 9 that attract me, and as such I might still be drawn more to the 9. I also think the reason that people have tended to cite unhealthy behaviors is that even overall very healthy people will dip in health level from time to time, and those dips can really be dealbreakers in terms of ease of getting along. It's like what I said with 6s - I love another 6 when they're sailing smoothly, since we can analyze and bond together. But when there's another 6 around who's clearly in the throes of a freakout, I generally try to leave the situation, because I'm aware of how badly that can impact me. It's hard to be drawn to someone when you know that sort of exchange is looming on the horizon.

    In any case, being drawn to a certain type doesn't necessarily mean much in the long run. One of my best friends is a 3w4, two are probably 2w1s, another is probably a 7w8, another is confirmed 7w6. One of my favorite managers at work is probably an 8w9, another probably 9w8. My boyfriend is really close between 9 and 1. One of my favorite online friends is a 5w6 and another is a 4w5. Those relationships are all across the board in terms of who I'm drawn to or not. Surface attraction is great to kick-start positive relationships, but I don't think it has a very strong correlation with significant longterm bonding.
    No it doesn't mean as much in the long run, but that can have something to do with having similar health levels instead of which number of the enneagram you are....

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No. But it's shallow to nitpick for it and deflecting any human flaw is what I meant. I think I know what you mean though. I'll be honest, when I see people relating to the health levels in the 1-3 range (from enneagram institute site), my initial reaction is "really?" It just sounds so ideal and unrealistic (especially 1 and 2 range). Sounds like something the ego would prematurely identify with you know? And sounds too rigid. I know it's just a guideline, but still...
    I do agree with this.

    Edit: Also, it's like when people say that they are drawn to this or that type, but then single out a specific type in the "need to be healthy range". Or the "but they're great when healthy". My reaction is wtf?
    Because...well...if you've known one and then the other, you know, you really know, I probably shouldn't ever want to deal with that again, even if an average person has their bad moments, you don't want to be around someone again who was stuck THAT PARTICULAR LEVEL of a bad moment...for years.

    And of course once you love someone it's hard. Someone actually said to me recently, "if you have such a low opinion of x...why do you even want to talk to him?"

    It's like well....I love(d) him? I know he has problems, but so do I, no body is perfect, and I know the person there is capable of more, because I've seen it before, in glimmers, and I'm actually quite concerned.

    I think he might be in good hands though. I think. I actually think she's probably a lot healthier than him, and also a 9, OR she's just a similar level of health, but a 2, and so she just wants to be helpful and nice. She seems almost overly nice, but she's older and had more time to mature.

    No one is going to be able to "fix" him, he's going to have to "fix" himself, and she strikes me as someone who isn't going to confront him on his bullshit, which is very bad. Which predictably will end with her leaving him.

    Same with someone else I loved who is ridiculously unhealthy, so unhealthy I actually didn't want him back, but just played kind of a supervisory/friend/family role to him for years after we broke up because my concern was "what is he going to do without me." And he did some weird things, but finally I realized I couldn't take any responsibility for him anymore, and thank god he found someone else, and who knows what happened with that.

    I take on an almost motherly attitude toward the men I love, I mean the ones I really love, not just like, like I feel they become my responsibility somehow, spiritually, no matter how fucked up they are.

    And that is a problem. A real problem. That is an issue I have, but it stems from me having a kind of uneven childhood myself, a really weird mix of very good and very bad, so I think I am attracted to men with similarly uneven childhoods and want to help fix them or something. Even deepfreeze 9 tried to "help" me in his own way, I noticed. I wonder if this is how people from questionably emotionally abusive childhoods behave toward one another, that on some level they all try to re-parent each other in whatever way they personally see fit.

    So yes, I would like someone in the healthy range, which mean I was making healthier choices i.e. meaning I'm functioning at a healthier level and not trying to fix broken toys in an attempt to fix myself.

    I just have to fix myself. Period.

  3. #43
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    ^Yeah... I think as you mature you become more aware of the things that are personal trouble spots, and the things that set you off. Ideally you'll address them and learn to overcome them, but realistically you might be setting yourself up for failure. It's like "dealbreakers" in relationships - you won't date someone who [whatever], not because they theoretically couldn't be a good partner, but because you know realistically it creates so much high a probability of relationship failure that the time and emotional investment probably isn't worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini
    I do agree with this. I seem to be attracted to 9s and 3s. I want to be near the 9s cool reserve and ability to "stay out of it" even if it turns out that the individual 9, in the long run, has the enneagram health level of a basement freezer in which bodies are quietly stored. Same for the 3s flashy charm, charisma and confidence. They've got it all under control. FABULOUS.


    Exactly, it's that stability that they both share that's so appealing. For 9s it's internal and for 3s it's external, but either way, it's comforting.

    I wonder about tritype theory in concert with this. I'm probably 629, and my boyfriend is probably 972 or 962. My mom, who I get along very well with, is either 297 or 296. My dad is 693. My little brother is 973. One of my best friends is 279. It's really funny when I think about all these because we all really share a lot of numbers. And then my good friend who I had a falling-out with recently is probably 385. Coincidence, maybe, or maybe not.

  4. #44
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    ^Yeah... I think as you mature you become more aware of the things that are personal trouble spots, and the things that set you off. Ideally you'll address them and learn to overcome them, but realistically you might be setting yourself up for failure. It's like "dealbreakers" in relationships - you won't date someone who [whatever], not because they theoretically couldn't be a good partner, but because you know realistically it creates so much high a probability of relationship failure that the time and emotional investment probably isn't worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini
    I do agree with this. I seem to be attracted to 9s and 3s. I want to be near the 9s cool reserve and ability to "stay out of it" even if it turns out that the individual 9, in the long run, has the enneagram health level of a basement freezer in which bodies are quietly stored. Same for the 3s flashy charm, charisma and confidence. They've got it all under control. FABULOUS.


    Exactly, it's that stability that they both share that's so appealing. For 9s it's internal and for 3s it's external, but either way, it's comforting.

    I wonder about tritype theory in concert with this. I'm probably 629, and my boyfriend is probably 972 or 962. My mom, who I get along very well with, is either 297 or 296. My dad is 693. My little brother is 973. One of my best friends is 279. It's really funny when I think about all these because we all really share a lot of numbers. And then my good friend who I had a falling-out with recently is probably 385. Coincidence, maybe, or maybe not.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^Yeah... I think as you mature you become more aware of the things that are personal trouble spots, and the things that set you off. Ideally you'll address them and learn to overcome them, but realistically you might be setting yourself up for failure. It's like "dealbreakers" in relationships - you won't date someone who [whatever], not because they theoretically couldn't be a good partner, but because you know realistically it creates so much high a probability of relationship failure that the time and emotional investment probably isn't worth it.
    The emotional investment thing is the thing for me. I'm not one of those people who put artificial time constraints on relationships (we have to be engaged by x, married by y and have a baby by z!) because I'm not sure how much I even want children, and I'm fairly independent and free-spirited, so I can have the emotional/sexual commitment without having to trap it in some Fe/Te box of social convention or practicality. Though I do see how marriage is practical, and I'm very open to marriage, more so than necessarily having children, which I am on the fence about.

    SO THE EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT FOR ME IS THE BIG THING. And it's huge thing for me. Like the 9 I was just talking about? I thought he was in good hands? Yeah apparently that lasted for a few weeks, and as I predicted that ended. I always get these eerie feelings about him, we have some kind of telepathic connection or something, and I found out last night he's already no longer with this person. I thought she was too "healthy" to even be patient with his garbage once she got close enough to see it, plus she's older, I think she's too old for him; I'm not judging that by any sexual context, but I had a FWB for a year who was a decade (plus) younger than me, and he was too young for me. Same kind of scenario. She's older than I am, probably about 40, and I'm just like "um, yeah right. Okey dokey. He's 29, and emotionally probably not even that old, more like 21-22, though he is as responsible probably as a 35 year old."

    But see why do I even care? That's the entire problem. Why do I feel anything at all that he's not with her, and that it didn't work out? Why do I even still want contact with this person?

    Once you love someone, and get past infatuation, it's hard. Infatuation goes away with time and distance. Love lingers, and its supposed to, so that people will stick together and care for each other over a long period of time, but see I'm not even with him, so fat lot of good it does me, especially since I couldn't be with him unless he was more conscious of some of his issues.

    It seems like an energy suck, that I even still expend emotion on this person.

    So I have to be careful.




    Exactly, it's that stability that they both share that's so appealing. For 9s it's internal and for 3s it's external, but either way, it's comforting.

    I wonder about tritype theory in concert with this. I'm probably 629, and my boyfriend is probably 972 or 962. My mom, who I get along very well with, is either 297 or 296. My dad is 693. My little brother is 973. One of my best friends is 279. It's really funny when I think about all these because we all really share a lot of numbers. And then my good friend who I had a falling-out with recently is probably 385. Coincidence, maybe, or maybe not.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The correct answer is 9.

    For those who aren't sure.

    YW.

    9s are easy to get along with but damn, you people are really stubborn, especially 9w8s. My ex was a 9w8, and so sweet, and everyone loved him, but he could be passive-aggressive.. he would say he'll do something, to avoid arguing, but then he just wouldn't do it, and did exactly as he pleased regardless.

    Then again I'm an 8w9 so I'm probably ten thousand times more difficult than the worst 9w8 alive.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    9s are easy to get along with but damn, you people are really stubborn, especially 9w8s. My ex was a 9w8, and so sweet, and everyone loved him, but he could be passive-aggressive.. he would say he'll do something, to avoid arguing, but then he just wouldn't do it, and did exactly as he pleased regardless.

    Then again I'm an 8w9 so I'm probably ten thousand times more difficult than the worst 9w8 alive.
    It happens

    Passive-aggressiveness is something I loath in others though, so personally I work hard against the urges to go to that place, fear of disconnection to someone is a powerful driver for me, however there are ways to approach things without threatening that.

    As for stubborn, well I think NFPs in general can be pretty damn stubborn regardless of type and many 9s are NFPs, for me it hits when I know that I don't want to do something, and as I'm willing to go along with whatever 90% of the time, it's important for me to stand my ground then, so yeah, you can't push me if I'm set against something, and I think it's a good thing. I'll explain why it if asked though.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The emotional investment thing is the thing for me. I'm not one of those people who put artificial time constraints on relationships (we have to be engaged by x, married by y and have a baby by z!) because I'm not sure how much I even want children, and I'm fairly independent and free-spirited, so I can have the emotional/sexual commitment without having to trap it in some Fe/Te box of social convention or practicality. Though I do see how marriage is practical, and I'm very open to marriage, more so than necessarily having children, which I am on the fence about.
    It's interesting how you frame that. I think I use time as an indicator, less about deadlines and more about realistic assessment. For example, I would really shy away from getting engaged in less than 2 years - at least for myself, I don't think anything less than that would be enough time to see that person and our relationship through enough scenarios and through enough individual personal development. It's not like anything magical happens on the threshold of 1 year and 364 days to 2 years, more like it just seems like two year-cycles, two runs through all four seasons, gives a fairly good amount of time for dynamic growth and assessment of patterns and what will change and what will not. I also question whenever a relationship doesn't seem to be moving forward/closer over a significant block of time. Time constraint doesn't feel artificial at all to me, just another variable amongst many. It may be a dose of Te pragmatism in my case, as time consideration doesn't feel at all personal or particularly subjective.

    But see why do I even care? That's the entire problem. Why do I feel anything at all that he's not with her, and that it didn't work out? Why do I even still want contact with this person?

    Once you love someone, and get past infatuation, it's hard. Infatuation goes away with time and distance. Love lingers, and its supposed to, so that people will stick together and care for each other over a long period of time, but see I'm not even with him, so fat lot of good it does me, especially since I couldn't be with him unless he was more conscious of some of his issues.

    It seems like an energy suck, that I even still expend emotion on this person.

    So I have to be careful.
    I don't know that I feel that same way about people in my past. I still care for them, but I sort of feel like they're now "world-bubbles" that have closed off to me, lost in time. It's the mental image of having been included in their bubble, but that bubble slowly closing off and drifting away into spacetime. It's very easy to conjure the past memories, and to feel the way I felt then, but I can't reconnect with it in the present. I can be with them and feel the magnetism again, but it doesn't consume me anymore. I kind of feel an internal assumption that they're going to do just fine in their lives, and move on positively, and while I enjoy communicating with them periodically, I don't feel major lasting attachment. I attach more to the internal feelings I had at the time of being with them than with them, themselves. It's like the them that I knew is an artifact of the past, a symbol of a moment in time that is long gone. I wish them the best but I don't feel like I know who they are anymore, really. Might be a static Si thing.

  9. #49
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    I've been very drawn to 4s

  10. #50
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    I wonder if the interaction between enneagrams depends on mbti/socionics type as well.

    For example. I freaking love 2's, except when they're NFP's, because they don't speak my god damn language.

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