[Type 4] Type 4's Who Aren't Over-Sensitive Wusses

[small.wonder]

Wow, this thread is so suprising to me. Some 4's may be wimps, but most 4's I believe are not.

I'm a 4w5 sx/sp, I am quite emotional but I choose how and when to express it externally. We are a reactive type because of our intense emotions-- emotional is not always a sappy thing. Also, does it not take courage to express one'self creatively and embrace vulnerability? Another reason I believe 4's are not wimps is because we accept our flaws readily-- we almost revel in them in a "beauty from ashes" type of way. Personally, that's why I feel fearless and tend to be assertive (what can harm me if my flaws are already exposed and known)?

Besides, I was recently awarded the supurlative: Most Likely To Be In Charge Of Power Tools (wimp? Ha.)

I should say though, I'm a pretty healthy 4w5 that integrates to 1 alot (when I took my test, 1 was my second highest score).

 

[Azure Flame]

here is the E4 wimp scale in order from badass to wimp.

ENFJ > INFJ > ESFP > ISFJ > ISFP > ENFP > INFP

For example:
Marylin Manson vs Virginia Wolf

One is an angry superstar with a hard rock cult following, the other killed herself because she was forever alone.

Betas! *fist bumps random person*

Just yesterday I had an INFJ 4 tell me I'm a "ball sucker" to which I told her I was going to beat her to death with her uggs. She responded by punching me in the stomach and giggling. Needless to say I'm in love.

 

[Sy_]

here is the E4 wimp scale in order from badass to wimp.

ENFJ > INFJ > ESFP > ISFJ > ISFP > ENFP > INFP

That scale is backwards...

 

[Azure Flame]

That scale is backwards...

No. You're virginia wolf and you should be slitting your wrists.

 

[Sy_]

No. You're virginia wolf and you should be slitting your wrists.

No and no...

 

[Azure Flame]

Your wrists aint gonna slit themselves

 

[Galena]

It's not how sensitive you are that makes you wussy or not; it's how you use that sensitivity. No one will call your strength into question when you use those feelings to probe and understand what others fear rather than use them to manipulate others in a self-contained way. That's what I've learned through both being a 4 and learning from an elderly 4.

Your wrists aint gonna slit themselves

Self-slitting wrists: that sounds like a product sold in the worst shop in Diagon Alley. $_$

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Oh, one of these threads. Well, I guess this is as good a place as any to start.

Basically, this is the reason I thought I couldn't be a 4 and why I spent years rationalizing it away. "I'm not a hypersensitive artistic wuss, therefore I cannot be a 4". Sad but true. Didn't help that my sister and cousin (both verifiable 4s) are both head-cases who define themselves as "wimps". I typed a lot of other ways to avoid it, but I'm cool with it now. Fours aren't wusses.

But yeah...as a 4 with a prominent 8-fix, I share the sentiments in the OP. I even took the time to compile a short list of non-wimp 4s:

- Yukio Mishima, famed writer. Sx/soc 4w5. The first one who comes to mind. Managed his own affairs, was highly disciplined, formed an army, and publically disemboweled himself to make a statement against contemporary mores in Japan. You know the kind of fortitude it would take to disembowel yourself? I would never call that man a wimp.
- Chief Crazy Horse. Based on what I've read of his life, he appears to have been a sp/sx 4w5. He was a sensitive contemplative as well as being a pretty ferocious warrior. Excruciatingly shy, he nonetheless led his people until he was betrayed and killed. Pretty heroic if you ask me.
- Lawrence of Arabia. Soc 4w3. Fought for the Arabs during WWI and led troops into battle. With enormous competency and intellect, he mastered the dynamics of the region and lobbied on behalf of the Arabs (all his suggestions were ignored). He was no wuss.
- Hitler, if you believe the theory that he was a sx4. Having given a thorough review to his life, I'd say it was *very* possible. 6w5 is not right; nor is 8. Say what you want about Hitler, but he wasn't very wimpy--he took charge.
- Fictionally, possibly Kikuchiyo in The Seven Samurai (1950). Maybe 4w3 sx/soc, triple reactive. Feel free to argue with me on that one. I don't know what he was, but he was very hypersensitive, held onto a lot of childhood pain, and lived in a constant state of shame about his social status. He also slayed ass, fought like a wild dog, and died as a hero. He evolved himself into a better version of himself.
- Me--I've survived things that would have felled lesser sorts, and today I alone am in charge of my life and focused on building a better future. I certainly still have bouts of self-pity and all...but I spend most of my days functioning as a responsible citizen and planning to do something great with my life. Feel free to PM me about it. (I can be an impossible diva, though, lol).

Not all 4s are big on crying publicly (me, for instance--I am easily moved, but extremely hesitant to show that side of myself to others), and not all 4s resort to tears as a default response. Naranjo's buzzwords for sp-4s are "dauntless" and "tenacious"--doesn't sound very wimpy to me. Being "sensitive" doesn't always equate to "poor little me, I need a savior"--it can also be an ability to feel the nuances and distinguish things that others might miss. Pretty cool, huh? Being "sensitive" is a strength (and yes, I need to remind myself of this as well, because the fact that everyone thinks I'm "sensitive" is one reason I hate myself sometimes. Damn 8-fix). Nothing about 4 has to equate to "wuss".

 

[Standuble]

"Over-sensitive wusses" is relative. Whilst I won't excuse over-sensitive I will say that not all battles are best fought. Many wusses with the right interjection of opportunism or ingenuity can best their opposition in the long run without lifting a finger.

 

[Amargith]

It's not how sensitive you are that makes you wussy or not; it's how you use that sensitivity. No one will call your strength into question when you use those feelings to probe and understand what others fear rather than use them to manipulate others in a self-contained way. That's what I've learned through both being a 4 and learning from an elderly 4.

This.

 

[Epiphany]

- Hitler, if you believe the theory that he was a sx4. Having given a thorough review to his life, I'd say it was *very* possible. 6w5 is not right; nor is 8. Say what you want about Hitler, but he wasn't very wimpy--he took charge.

I've wondered this myself. Considering that he went from an aspiring artist (who was good at his craft imo) who was homeless, depressed and suicidal, to gaining so much power and influence in the world; he must have been quite audacious. I think there is a compelling argument for Hitler being a 4 regarding his identity issues which were an underlying reason for his shift in aspirations from artist to political/militaristic leader. Essentially, everything he did was to reinforce his belief that he was the savior of Germany and had significance in life. The extent of his grandiose persona was to compensate for the magnitude of emptiness inside.

 

[chickpea]

I might be over-sensitive at times, but in general I've developed a pretty thick skin and I can deal with a lot of situations that would break the average person. Sometimes I surprise myself. I handled myself pretty well in jail

But then my boyfriend could say something that hurts my feelings and I'll cry all night and have a little meltdown so it's pretty inconsistent.

 

[Elfboy]

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's frustrated with the view of Type 4 being weak little weeping willows, or impossible divas. Can anyone name some 4s who are actually strong, assertive, and heroic? Someone you know personally or a famous person, alive or dead, or even a fictional example. Stating their wing/stacking would be nice also.

to be honest, no, I can't

 

[Epiphany]

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's frustrated with the view of Type 4 being weak little weeping willows, or impossible divas. Can anyone name some 4s who are actually strong, assertive, and heroic? Someone you know personally or a famous person, alive or dead, or even a fictional example. Stating their wing/stacking would be nice also.

Heroism is rather subjective. Plenty of 4's are assertive in their individuality and willingness to oppose the majority. Regardless of motivations, whether healthy or unhealthy, it's a lot easier to go along with the crowd than face criticism, ridicule or persecution. I have no doubt that many 4's have heroically saved lives and defended their sense of morality. There are 9 types in the enneagram and billions of people in the world. Anyone who asserts that a particular type is incapable of "heroism" is woefully ignorant.

 

[click crash boom]

Your wrists aint gonna slit themselves

NOT funny, how could you even joke like that?

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

Hmm, it's been a while since I wrote this thread. I think my views on 4 have shifted from a concern for "oversensitive-ness" to a concern for usefulness/worthiness, or the lack thereof.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Hmm, it's been a while since I wrote this thread. I think my views on 4 have shifted from a concern for "oversensitive-ness" to a concern for usefulness/worthiness, or the lack thereof.

Oh. I've wondered about that one, too. What purpose do we serve society, again? (At least, modern American society). I don't have answers to that one, unfortunately. Another reason I had problems accepting it.

I'd be grateful to anyone with the answers.

 

[Amargith]

From what I can tell, our 'usefulness' comes into play when things are lifted (by a 4) to a level of exquisiteness. It can be applied to anything really. The book I own mentions that 4s thrive in dramatic situations where people are in an uproar to come in and present the 'perfect' solution to harmonise the needs of the situation with the need for harmony amidst the people. Ironically, the 4 will bring in the right people to address the situation, yet often those same people will force the 4 out because of their impractical povs and high drama. Other than that, nobody outdoes us when it comes to refinement and creating an 'experience' apparently. Aesthetics to the point of well..being holistic almost.

What is the use of this? Well, as my programmer intj says: I learned after many years that while I can make a program and address just about any problem, people will not use the solution Ive created unless I 'dress it up' somehwat. After talking to a designer friend of his, he learned a lot of basic techniques in making something 'userfriendly' aka pretty it up, add a couple of big colourful and helpful (in drawing attention) buttons in order to make it easier for people to figure out how to work shit.

Consider Apple for instance. One of the reasons the iphone (and products like it) is such a huge success is coz of the perfect marriage between engineers and designers. Yes, the product is effective in doing what it does, but the design makes it so user-friendly and pleasant to use and figure out, a monkey could do it. And this is what makes it the market-leader compared to its competitors.

Pleasure is a really good motivator for people. And people derive pleasure from things that are aesthetically pleasing and intuitive to follow. And it is exactly that flair and ease that a 4 provides and strives for in his creativity. We often strive for something to be just 'right', and invoke the maximum amount of pleasure in both us and other people. It taps into their soul. Marry that with effectiveness in a product or service that solves a problem or just for sheer entertainment value for the public and you have a winner.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I've wondered this myself. Considering that he went from an aspiring artist (who was good at his craft imo) who was homeless, depressed and suicidal, to gaining so much power and influence in the world; he must have been quite audacious. I think there is a compelling argument for Hitler being a 4 regarding his identity issues which were an underlying reason for his shift in aspirations from artist to political/militaristic leader.

You know, the first time I heard that Hitler could be a 4, I thought it was the most batshit stupid, insane thing I'd ever heard. But after becoming more familiar with sx-4s and figuring out I was a 4, I think it's a very real possibility. Frankly, at this point, I'm not sure what else he'd have been.

Essentially, everything he did was to reinforce his belief that he was the savior of Germany and had significance in life. The extent of his grandiose persona was to compensate for the magnitude of emptiness inside.

Not sure I agree with this part, though. Surely we 4s are capable of dreaming big and taking action in the world for other reasons than to prove our own significance/cover inner emptiness?

 

[Epiphany]

You know, the first time I heard that Hitler could be a 4, I thought it was the most batshit stupid, insane thing I'd ever heard. But after becoming more familiar with sx-4s and figuring out I was a 4, I think it's a very real possibility. Frankly, at this point, I'm not sure what else he'd have been.


Not sure I agree with this part, though. Surely we 4s are capable of dreaming big and taking action in the world for other reasons than to prove our own significance/cover inner emptiness?

Oh...certainly. I hardly think that Hitler was a healthy 4 though. I read a biography a while ago, but I'm mostly referring to this documentary.

At 41:20, renowned political profiler, Jerrold Post, suggests that Hitler created a grandiose facade to compensate for his lack of self-contentment. He seemed more concerned about his legacy and image as a savior than the wellbeing of Germany.

More evidence that Hitler was probably a very unhealthy 4 sx, regarding his unrequited infatuation with Stefanie Rabatsch:

Wikipedia

According to Kubizek, Hitler never spoke to Stefanie, always saying he would do so "tomorrow",[1] and loathed those who flirted with her, especially the military officers, whom he called "conceited blockheads"; he came to feel an "uncompromising enmity towards the officer class as a whole, and everything military in general. It annoyed him intensely that Stefanie mixed with such idlers who, he insisted, wore corsets and used scent".[1] Since Hitler disliked dancing, once he learnt that Stefanie loved to dance, he said, "Once Stefanie is my wife, she won't have the slightest desire to dance!"[1]

Kubizek further states: "Stefanie had no idea how deeply Adolf was in love with her; she regarded him as a somewhat shy, but nevertheless remarkably tenacious and faithful, admirer. When she responded with a smile to his inquiring glance, he was happy and his mood became unlike anything I had ever observed in him. But when Stefanie, as happened just as often, coldly ignored his gaze, he was crushed and ready to destroy himself and the whole world."[1][5] He finally planned to kidnap Stefanie and kill both her and himself by jumping off a bridge into the Danube.[1] Instead he moved to Vienna, where an idealised image of Stefanie became his moral touchstone.[6]

Rabatsch stated in later interviews that she was unaware of Hitler at the time, but that she had received an anonymous love letter asking her to wait for him to graduate and then to marry him, which she only realised after being questioned about him, must have been from Hitler.[6] She married an Austrian army officer, and after the Second World War lived in Vienna.[1][6] She was interviewed and Hitler's love for her dramatised in a 1973 Austro-German television documentary written by Georg Stefan Troller and directed by Axel Corti.[

^ Interesting to note that he hated the military prior to serving and becoming a dictator.