[Type 5] 5w4

[entropie]

Found the description I can identify the most with, ever.

They even meantioned nihilism

The Five with a Four-Wing: "The Iconoclast"

The traits of the Five and those of the Four reinforce each other in many ways. Both Five and Four are withdrawn types: they turn to the inner world of their imagination to defend their egos and to reinforce their sense of self. They both feel that something essential in themselves must be found before they can live their lives completely. Fives lack the confidence to act, and Fours lack a strong, stable sense of identity. Thus, Fives with a Four-wing have difficulty connecting with others and staying grounded. People of this subtype are more emotional and introverted than Fives with a Six-wing, althrough paradoxically, they tend to be more sociable than the other subtype. As a result of their Four component, they are also more interested in the personal and intrapsychic. The two types also have some significant differences in their approach. Fives are cerebral, holding experience at arm's length, while Fours internalize everything to intensify their feelings. Despite these differences--or because of them--these two personality types make one of the richest subtypes, combining possibilities for outstanding artistic as well as intellectual achievement.

Notewothy examples of this subtype include Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenburg, Friedrich Nietzsche, Georgia O'Keeffe, John Cage, John Lennon, k. d. lang, Laurie Anderson, James Joyce, Emily Dickinson, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, Buster Keaton, Gary Larson, Stephen King, Tim Burton, Clive Barker, Franz Kafka, Umberto Eco, Jean-Paul Sartre, Oriana Fallaci, Glenn Gould, Peter Serkin, Hannah Arendt, Kurt Cobain, and Vincent van Gogh.

In healthy people of this subtype, we find the union of intuition and knowledge, sensitivity and insight, aesthetic appreciation and intellectual endowments. Fives with a Four-wing are likely to be involved in the arts as writers, directors, designers, musicians, composers, choreographers, and so forth. The subtype has been somewhat overlooked in many descriptions of Fives because they do not fit the stereotype of the academic/scientific Five (the Five with a Six-wing). This subtype is more synthetic in its thinking, pulling things together and seeking out new ways of looking at things, Also, Fives with a Four-wing tend to utilize their imaginations more than the analytic, systematic parts of the mind which are more the domain of the other subtype. If they are involved in science, Fives with a Four-wing are drawn to those areas in which there is less emphasis on experimentation and data collection than on intuition and comprehensive vision. This subtype is particularly aware of--and on the lookout for--the beauty in a mathematical formula, for example. For this subtype, beauty is one of the indications of truth, because the order which beauty represents is a confirmation of the objective rightness of an idea. One of the foremost strengths of healthy Fives with a Four-wing lies precisely in their intuition, since intuition helps them uncover areas of knowledge where their conscious thoughts have not yet ventured. The Four-wing adds a desire to find a unique, personal vision to the curiosity and perceptiveness of the Five, and the result is a propensity to "tinker" with familiar forms until they become something almost unrecognizable. In talented Fives with a Four-wing this can lead to startling innovations in their chosen fields of endeavor.

In Average Fives with a Four-wing, the Four-wing adds emotional depth, but causes difficulties in sustaining efforts and in working with others. Fives with a Four-wing are more independent than Fives with a Six-wing and resist having structures and deadlines imposed on them. There can be an off-putting detachment from the environment, both because they are involved in their thoughts and because they are introverted and emotionally self-absorbed. Analytic powers may be used to keep people at arm's length rather than to understand them more deeply. Emotionally delicate, people of this subtype can be moody and hypersensitive to criticism, particularly regarding the value of their work or ideas, since this impinges directly upon self-esteem. Both component types tend to withdraw from people and be reclusive. They can be highly creative and imaginative, envisioning alternate realities in great detail, but can get lost in their own cerebral landscapes. The Four-wing gives a propensity to fantasizing, but with the Five with the Four-wing, the subject matter tends toward the surreal and fantastic rather than the romantic. Individuals of this subtype can become highly impractical, spending most of their time reading, playing intellectual games, or specializing in trivia. There is often an attraction to dark, forbidden subject matter or to any way of self-expression which would disturb or upset others. Some Fives with a Four-wing become fascinated with the macabre and the horrific. As they become more impractical and fearful about their possibilities in life, one typical solution is to find emotional solace in various forms of self-indulgence--in alcohol, drugs, or sexual escapades.

Unhealthy persons of this subtype may fall prey to debilitating depressions yet be disturbed by aggressive impulses. Envy of others mixes with contempt for them; the desire to isolate the self from the world mixes with regret that it must be so. Intellectual conflicts make their emotional lives seem hopeless, while their emotional conflicts make intellectual work difficult to sustain. Moreover, if this subtype becomes neurotic, it is one of the most alienated of all of the personality types: profoundly hopeless, nihilistic, self-inhibiting, isolated from others, and full of self-hatred. Unhealthy Fives with a Four-wing retreat into a very bleak, minimal existence, attempting to cut off from all needs. The self-rejection and dispair of the Four combines with the cynical nihilism of the Five to create a worldview that is relentlessly negative and terrifying. Social isolation, addiction, and chronic depression are common. Suicide is a real possibility.

 

[Rasofy]

 

[entropie]

not good ?

 

[Rasofy]

not good ?

Imo, Enneagram 5 doesn't fit. I think you should try 6w7 and 7w6.

 

[entropie]

Imo, Enneagram 5 doesn't fit. I think you should try 6w7 and 7w6.

No, neither 6 nor 7 fit me so much. I have bolded here what I do not relate to:

Sixes and Sevens can be mistyped when there is confusion between main type and wing: that is, between a Six with a Seven-wing and a Seven with a Six-wing. Both are Thinking types, and both are driven by anxiety, although they cope with their anxious feelings in strikingly different ways. Sixes tend to react to their anxiety by fretting and becoming more anxious. They may react counterphobically by reacting against their fears, but react they do. Further, anxiety tends to make Sixes more pessimistic and negative about themselves and their prospects. They can be full of self-doubt, while being suspicious of the motives of others.

Sevens, by contrast are extremely optimistic, and react to anxiety by looking for enjoyable distractions. Sevens suppress their self-doubt as much as possible, and try to keep everything upbeat. Sevens tend to deny the dark corners of their souls, sixes tend to get stuck in them. Sixes, however, have a heightened sense of responsibility and do not allow themselves to "goof off" until all of their obligations have been met. Sevens, for better or for worse, are far more spontaneous, and resist having too many expectations placed on them. They want to be free to come and go as they please, and find the Six's persistent sense of commitment potentially limiting and dull. Sixes tend to find the Seven's lifestyle flighty and irresponsible. In short, sixes seek out structure and guidelines: Sevens resist both.

I do understand the need for structure and guidelines but I never follow them unquestioned. I rather liked the Iconoclast description

 

[Rasofy]

No, neither 6 nor 7 fit me so much. I have bolded here what I do not relate to:

I do understand the need for structure and guidelines but I never follow them unquestioned. I rather liked the Iconoclast description

Interesting. How about 9w1(my last guess )?

 

[garbage]

Geez, yeah. I've considered that label for myself as well, but the 6 traits (specially those involving ambivalence, looking beyond the surface, and searching for acceptance/loyalty/placement) fit so well for me.

I wish I could help more, but maybe http://www.netplaces.com/enneagram/the-wing-subtypes/ would be worth a look.

 

[Spamtar]

Nice article. I can relate to aspects of each (from the healthy to the unhealthy).

Thx

 

[Asterion]

I don't think this can help you determine if you're a 5. It presumes you already know your type, and chooses to explain the influence of that 4 wing.

If you think you're a 5, you should try reading up on the fundamental aspects of the type, preferably from a trusted book, which are plentiful.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were a 5 though entropie.

 

[Starry]

entropie...you're...you're a 7. Like you know that right? (I actually didn't even know you were questioning your e-type). I mean...I don't like sharing my opinion on here with regards to other people's MBTI & e-type because I don't feel that I could know better than them. But I consider you a friend...and it is just so obvious with you. You are a 7. I understand the 7 descriptions are so lame. It took me forever to see my own 7ness as well. And what I'm thinking is that perhaps you are just evolving and thus seeing yourself in the 5w4 description? As 5 is the security point for us? Or maybe you are just totally unhealthy like me...and are currently on the low sides of 5 & 1? What do you think?

 

[Mal12345]

Found the description I can identify the most with, ever.

They even meantioned nihilism

It's obvious to me where this quote came from, but Riso and Hudson might appreciate it if you would at least cite them.

 

[entropie]

entropie...you're...you're a 7. Like you know that right? (I actually didn't even know you were questioning your e-type). I mean...I don't like sharing my opinion on here with regards to other people's MBTI & e-type because I don't feel that I could know better than them. But I consider you a friend...and it is just so obvious with you. You are a 7. I understand the 7 descriptions are so lame. It took me forever to see my own 7ness as well. And what I'm thinking is that perhaps you are just evolving and thus seeing yourself in the 5w4 description? As 5 is the security point for us? Or maybe you are just totally unhealthy like me...and are currently on the low sides of 5 & 1? What do you think?

Well I gave it some thought and read up on the enneagram descriptions from enneagram institute. I never really dealt with finding out my enneagram, so its basically new to me.

[MENTION=6894]Asterion[/MENTION] was right, when I read up more on the pure 5 type that wasnt really me. The "unatlethic cautious chess player" doesnt fit with my facts.

From all descriptions the 8 had the most in common with the most objective way to see myself possible. The 7 description sounded to passive for me, especially the things about indecisiveness resulting from too many projects. I definitly have this aspect, but I try to counter it and to stay in control everywhen I can, so it would make the most sense to me, if I'ld label myself a 8w7.

I have considered 6 as well, but I dont get along with the stubborn sense of loyality nor would I devote myself to a cause I havent invented myself. Still there is a lot of the integrity of the 6 in me and thats why I thought I was a 6 before.

However, when I continued thinking about it, the 8w7 does not cling with my sense for harmony and order. Normally I like things the most, when there are no problems, so I read up on the 8w9 and that made more sense. Still I am not to convinced, if I really come off as "less-assertive" since I am not so good at reflecting myself thru others (and that because I never let them speak ).

So what do you think ? 8 possible or did I forget another obvious number ?

 

[garbage]

stuff in the post just above mine

Maybe 7 with a strong 8 wing, then? I consider myself to have a really, really strong 6 wing, to the point where many of the common (but secondary) 6 traits supercede those of the 5 in me.

 

[Owfin]

Well I gave it some thought and read up on the enneagram descriptions from enneagram institute. I never really dealt with finding out my enneagram, so its basically new to me.

[MENTION=6894]Asterion[/MENTION] was right, when I read up more on the pure 5 type that wasnt really me. The "unatlethic cautious chess player" doesnt fit with my facts.

From all descriptions the 8 had the most in common with the most objective way to see myself possible. The 7 description sounded to passive for me, especially the things about indecisiveness resulting from too many projects. I definitly have this aspect, but I try to counter it and to stay in control everywhen I can, so it would make the most sense to me, if I'ld label myself a 8w7.

I have considered 6 as well, but I dont get along with the stubborn sense of loyality nor would I devote myself to a cause I havent invented myself. Still there is a lot of the integrity of the 6 in me and thats why I thought I was a 6 before.

However, when I continued thinking about it, the 8w7 does not cling with my sense for harmony and order. Normally I like things the most, when there are no problems, so I read up on the 8w9 and that made more sense. Still I am not to convinced, if I really come off as "less-assertive" since I am not so good at reflecting myself thru others (and that because I never let them speak ).

So what do you think ? 8 possible or did I forget another obvious number ?

Don't sweat the everyday tendencies you have when figuring out your enneagram type. You look at your motivation.

5: To protect themselves from being stranded and helpless (they do this by retreating into their minds so they aren't vulnerable)
6: To quiet their internal and existential fear
7: To avoid pain (always staying one jump ahead of it)
8: To avoid being controlled or dependent

 

[Mal12345]

Well I gave it some thought and read up on the enneagram descriptions from enneagram institute. I never really dealt with finding out my enneagram, so its basically new to me.

[MENTION=6894]Asterion[/MENTION] was right, when I read up more on the pure 5 type that wasnt really me. The "unatlethic cautious chess player" doesnt fit with my facts.

From all descriptions the 8 had the most in common with the most objective way to see myself possible. The 7 description sounded to passive for me, especially the things about indecisiveness resulting from too many projects. I definitly have this aspect, but I try to counter it and to stay in control everywhen I can, so it would make the most sense to me, if I'ld label myself a 8w7.

I have considered 6 as well, but I dont get along with the stubborn sense of loyality nor would I devote myself to a cause I havent invented myself. Still there is a lot of the integrity of the 6 in me and thats why I thought I was a 6 before.

However, when I continued thinking about it, the 8w7 does not cling with my sense for harmony and order. Normally I like things the most, when there are no problems, so I read up on the 8w9 and that made more sense. Still I am not to convinced, if I really come off as "less-assertive" since I am not so good at reflecting myself thru others (and that because I never let them speak ).

So what do you think ? 8 possible or did I forget another obvious number ?

Given what you've stated, the only other possibility would be type 3, but only because of its resemblance to 7. Just speculating.

 

[Asterion]

Well I gave it some thought and read up on the enneagram descriptions from enneagram institute. I never really dealt with finding out my enneagram, so its basically new to me.

[MENTION=6894]Asterion[/MENTION] was right, when I read up more on the pure 5 type that wasnt really me. The "unatlethic cautious chess player" doesnt fit with my facts.

From all descriptions the 8 had the most in common with the most objective way to see myself possible. The 7 description sounded to passive for me, especially the things about indecisiveness resulting from too many projects. I definitly have this aspect, but I try to counter it and to stay in control everywhen I can, so it would make the most sense to me, if I'ld label myself a 8w7.

I have considered 6 as well, but I dont get along with the stubborn sense of loyality nor would I devote myself to a cause I havent invented myself. Still there is a lot of the integrity of the 6 in me and thats why I thought I was a 6 before.

However, when I continued thinking about it, the 8w7 does not cling with my sense for harmony and order. Normally I like things the most, when there are no problems, so I read up on the 8w9 and that made more sense. Still I am not to convinced, if I really come off as "less-assertive" since I am not so good at reflecting myself thru others (and that because I never let them speak ).

So what do you think ? 8 possible or did I forget another obvious number ?

Enneagram institute descriptions aren't bad if you just want a quick idea/overview, but if you really want to know I would recommend a book. There are plenty of them around, but I found Helen Palmer's to be solid gold in paper form.

 

[Owfin]

I really like this site's descriptions. It has a lot of info, and it is really good at showing why the types are flawed.

 

[Starry]

Well I gave it some thought and read up on the enneagram descriptions from enneagram institute. I never really dealt with finding out my enneagram, so its basically new to me.

[MENTION=6894]Asterion[/MENTION] was right, when I read up more on the pure 5 type that wasnt really me. The "unatlethic cautious chess player" doesnt fit with my facts.

From all descriptions the 8 had the most in common with the most objective way to see myself possible. The 7 description sounded to passive for me, especially the things about indecisiveness resulting from too many projects. I definitly have this aspect, but I try to counter it and to stay in control everywhen I can, so it would make the most sense to me, if I'ld label myself a 8w7.

I have considered 6 as well, but I dont get along with the stubborn sense of loyality nor would I devote myself to a cause I havent invented myself. Still there is a lot of the integrity of the 6 in me and thats why I thought I was a 6 before.

However, when I continued thinking about it, the 8w7 does not cling with my sense for harmony and order. Normally I like things the most, when there are no problems, so I read up on the 8w9 and that made more sense. Still I am not to convinced, if I really come off as "less-assertive" since I am not so good at reflecting myself thru others (and that because I never let them speak ).

So what do you think ? 8 possible or did I forget another obvious number ?

I thought about this quite a bit...and for me personally...I can't place you outside of enneagram 7. I mean...I would buy 8w7...although it is still a 'mental stretch' for me...and a big one at that. Perhaps it is the case that [MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION] got it right with the whole '7 with a powerful 8 wing'.

I wish I could provide you with a more thoughtful answer right now...with 'reasons' and 'evidence' and 'textbook learnin'...but I'm spending the whole day baking cookies and candy and only have a few minutes here and there before I burn something. The reason I'm telling you this is because I now totally want to be German. I'm making Spritz...and when I was reading about it...I learned that German's traditionally bake for TWO WEEKS prior to Christmas? Ah yum. Is this true? Yes...I want to be German now.

Hopefully someone that can explain things better than I will come on here and...talk.

 

[entropie]

I thought about this quite a bit...and for me personally...I can't place you outside of enneagram 7. I mean...I would buy 8w7...although it is still a 'mental stretch' for me...and a big one at that. Perhaps it is the case that [MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION] got it right with the whole '7 with a powerful 8 wing'.

I wish I could provide you with a more thoughtful answer right now...with 'reasons' and 'evidence' and 'textbook learnin'...but I'm spending the whole day baking cookies and candy and only have a few minutes here and there before I burn something. The reason I'm telling you this is because I now totally want to be German. I'm making Spritz...and when I was reading about it...I learned that German's traditionally bake for TWO WEEKS prior to Christmas? Ah yum. Is this true? Yes...I want to be German now.

Hopefully someone that can explain things better than I will come on here and...talk.

Haha thanks for your vote of confidence. Yea my girlfriend and me are baking Spritzgebäck and other cookies since the beginning of December. I didnt know this was uniquely german. We made Mozart - Kugeln lately, which are pralines that is great ! They have nougat on the inside wrapped in a marzipan/pistachio cover and dipped in black chocolate. Very tasty, ate already way too much of them. If you like I can write you down the recipe .

Thanks to all of you for your participation. In what [MENTION=14915]Owfin[/MENTION] wrote down about the basic fears, I can very identify with the 7. The 3 may be an option as well, but I want to read up more on that, maybe a book indeed is in order. So far 3 strike me as kind of "social achievers" what I like but what I dont need and what I could relinquish. I'll reply when I gave it some more thought. For the moment I have entrenched myself behind xmas preparations aswell. Plus the job doesnt seize to be demanding. This year people really work until the last minute. Last year I was already drunk everyday before xmas .

 

[Starry]

If you like I can write you down the recipe .

Ja, bitte. Ich würde sehr gerne dieses Rezept. Und ich möchte, betrunken zu sein auch.