[Type 4] 4s & gender

[Domino]

I'm told I have a great deal of "male" energy while being feminine. As a teenager, I thought it was because I was maybe bi-sexual, but as I got older, I realized that it's just a heady dose of blunt force.

 

[Burger King]

I'm told I have a great deal of "male" energy while being feminine. As a teenager, I thought it was because I was maybe bi-sexual, but as I got older, I realized that it's just a heady dose of blunt force.

It's funny you mention this. I've heard many female 4s complain about feeling masculine. From what I've seen, it seems that they do exude some sort of "masculine energy," (a bit intimidating). The male 4s on the other hand, often lament on how feminine they feel (I know I feel this way).

From observing some videos of the types, the E4 guys do seem kind of girly and the E4 girls seem kind of manly (overall).

Edit: Okay maybe not overall, but enough for some sort of a pattern to emerge. Loose observation btw.

 

[acronach]

i know a lot of 4s, and i dont really steriotype 4s in general to a specific gender. I think society in general though is more accepting of female 4s, male 4s are made out to be whiny douches a lot of times.

 

[Reverie]

Well, I am unique... but everyone is, to a degree.. so I'm not that different from anybody else. That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean, the things I really care about are the things women usually care about-- romance, beauty, "true love", community... but I also care about the masculine stuff-- politics, philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, being able to play the guitar...it just seems less important.

I care about both sets too. Society's just silly in attributing reproductive organs to interests.

I felt boyish and enjoyed "boy" activities (or things associated traditionally with boys), like anything that meant getting dirty, while liking "girly" things, like clothes and glitter and make-up.

This is exactly like I was. They called me "Her royal highness, princess mudpie" ...I'm still like this actually.

Well I have to tell you I have been categorized as an "honorary woman" by a certain person at work. I probably would have regarded this more positively had it happened 1:1, but it happened with practically everyone in on it. I suppose I should be thankful they were all women.

The guys call me Sir. Apparently I'm not a girl but a drag queen. I'm just me though. Guys I've dated think I'm super feminine... I'm not picky. Ill take both.

 

[Phoenix]

My guess is that one of the reasons why a lot of the female 4's [specifically 4w3's] report as feeling masculine while male 4's [specifically 4w3's] reporting in as feeling feminine could very well be related to their overall feelings of longing for that something that makes them feel special.

Even if not, then at least that's my personal motivation for it. I've always felt like I'm gender neutral as opposed to more masculine or feminine. Maybe another reason why my SO and I get along so well as she's a pansexual She gets to be in love with someone who's in touch with both his feminine and masculine sides

 

[zelo1954]

My guess is that one of the reasons why a lot of the female 4's [specifically 4w3's] report as feeling masculine while male 4's [specifically 4w3's] reporting in as feeling feminine could very well be related to their overall feelings of longing for that something that makes them feel special.

I like that. I've measured myself as a male 4w5 and MB INtP. "Longing for something that makes them feel special" sounds a bit of a girly thing but it really is not. I do have a strong side which is usually categorised as feminine but I am most definitely a man. I have values and, particularly, interests which are usually categorised as masculine and many possible interests usually categorised as feminine leave me stone cold. My feminine side is purely within and a lot of it is to do with emotions. I think it means that, whilst usually a Ti, I have a strongly developed Fi also.

 

[Phoenix]

I like that. I've measured myself as a male 4w5 and MB INtP. "Longing for something that makes them feel special" sounds a bit of a girly thing but it really is not. I do have a strong side which is usually categorised as feminine but I am most definitely a man. I have values and, particularly, interests which are usually categorised as masculine and many possible interests usually categorised as feminine leave me stone cold. My feminine side is purely within and a lot of it is to do with emotions. I think it means that, whilst usually a Ti, I have a strongly developed Fi also.

I would highly recommend that you read Jung's work on Anima and Animus [if you already haven't].

What you're describing isn't Fi, but a male INTP who's gotten in touch with his Fe [or anima in your case] which has always been considered primarily a feminine function.

I'm taking a bold step in saying this, but I think that us Type 4 T males may be at an advantage when it comes to individuation in Jungian terms.

 

[zelo1954]

I would highly recommend that you read Jung's work on Anima and Animus [if you already haven't].

What you're describing isn't Fi, but a male INTP who's gotten in touch with his Fe [or anima in your case] which has always been considered primarily a feminine function.

OMG. Thank you so much for this. I've always wanted to understand something about 'shadow' and the inferior function. This could be a good thing to read. I guess I'll need to interloan it but sounds well worth it. BTW I have posted a couple of videos in the lounge "Video Challenge". They are somewhat lengthy - about 25 minutes for the pair. If (and ONLY if) you are interested feel free to have a look.

 

[Pseudo]

I think the whole masculine/feminine thing is a waste of time. I'm a five female and I do fit the standard idea of the genderless five. One ex-boyfriend described me as lacking the "bubbly warmrth" a woman should have. However I've never felt as if I wasn't a woman but I have felt that I wasn't feminine. Feminine being shorthand for either a series of shallow qualities (hair makeup nails etc.) or a series of useless qualities (compliance, obsession with truelove and the ever vague and frustrating term of "softness"). I've never felt like I am a man trapped in a woman's body. What I feel is the resistance to the idea that to be a woman I have to be this sort of silly, inane, little creature. It seems just as ridiculous from the male point of view as masculinity seems to be mostly concerned with dominance and aggression. Though they get all the skills too. I mean honestly besides being inaccurate in my opinion, your list of feminine and masculine traits is the kind of thing that makes me want to stab myself in the eyes. It basically makes it seem unfeminine to think and unmasculine to feel. And what about playing guitar is inherently masculine?

Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm trying to attack you. It was written in the most dispassionate of INTP tones I sure you

 

[zelo1954]

Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm trying to attack you. It was written in the most dispassionate of INTP tones I sure you

Of course not - and I actually agree with what you've said. However I need to get my points across and therefore require the use of unambiguous terminology. The best unambiguous terminolgy I know of which everyone understands, even though they may not agree with it, is what I used. If you understood my points - job done.

 

[Pseudo]

Of course not - and I actually agree with what you've said. However I need to get my points across and therefore require the use of unambiguous terminology. The best unambiguous terminolgy I know of which everyone understands, even though they may not agree with it, is what I used. If you understood my points - job done.

I was addressing the OP

 

[Pessimistic Hippie]

Some years back, I was so interested in being androgynous that I bought and wore a chest binder for a bit (my hair was already very short and I wore baggy clothes sometimes.) Nowadays I don't see myself doing that again. But my thinking was, I really resent what I feel is socially associated with femininity, and I thought the only way that I could combat being grouped into that fully was if I could confuse people over what my biological sex is.

If I tried to explain it as best I could, it irritated me knowing that what's usually considered 'attractive' if you're a woman is having long hair, shaving everything, wearing dresses, being "soft, loving, and supportive" because:

(1) I didn't see WHY one had to be and have those things in order to be deemed attractive, when I'd met many women who were the complete opposite and whom I found beautiful as they were. It didn't make any sense to me why they should be disregarded in favor of those who were more conventionally what society was used to. I get sick of seeing the same goddamn things all the time, only mostly seeing different types when it's being assumed they're lesbians or something. And,

(2) Due to me feeling like there were many other types of women who were underepresented for that reason, I liked the idea of being another example of that. It felt like I was doing my part in that way.

I think I dropped the chest binder idea when I realized it'd be more powerful to be a woman who looked different, than to try to pretend I didn't identify as one altogether. Even if it did and does still frustrate me feeling like I could be grouped in by default. I instead wanted to see what kind of opportunities I'd have that were unique to me and how I chose to live if I did whatever I wanted to.

 

[Galena]

I can't personally imagine my gender identity *itself* being intertwined with my enneagram in any way, although others may have different stories. My experience of gender is one of the most quiet and uncomplicated parts of me if not the most, and enneagram is about how we complicate things for ourselves.

The particular ways in which I resisted being comfortable with myself early on after learning its name as a 19-year-old, and tried to wish the truth away or force it away with aesthetics - now those were more e4.

 

[Coriolis]

Some years back, I was so interested in being androgynous that I bought and wore a chest binder for a bit (my hair was already very short and I wore baggy clothes sometimes.) Nowadays I don't see myself doing that again. But my thinking was, I really resent what I feel is socially associated with femininity, and I thought the only way that I could combat being grouped into that fully was if I could confuse people over what my biological sex is.

If I tried to explain it as best I could, it irritated me knowing that what's usually considered 'attractive' if you're a woman is having long hair, shaving everything, wearing dresses, being "soft, loving, and supportive" because:

(1) I didn't see WHY one had to be and have those things in order to be deemed attractive, when I'd met many women who were the complete opposite and whom I found beautiful as they were. It didn't make any sense to me why they should be disregarded in favor of those who were more conventionally what society was used to. I get sick of seeing the same goddamn things all the time, only mostly seeing different types when it's being assumed they're lesbians or something. And,

(2) Due to me feeling like there were many other types of women who were underepresented for that reason, I liked the idea of being another example of that. It felt like I was doing my part in that way.

I think I dropped the chest binder idea when I realized it'd be more powerful to be a woman who looked different, than to try to pretend I didn't identify as one altogether. Even if it did and does still frustrate me feeling like I could be grouped in by default. I instead wanted to see what kind of opportunities I'd have that were unique to me and how I chose to live if I did whatever I wanted to.

Gender roles and expectations are needlessly limiting and confining. I have never had any patience with them myself. Every person, male, female, or other, who can stay true to themselves even when - especially when - that means being different, makes the world a better place. The courage of their example helps to chip away at those roles and expectations, loosening their hold overall.


Edit: I should have added here that there is a difference between not identifying as female, and not wanting to be constrained by roles and expectations just because you are (do identify as) female.

 

[Saturnal Snowqueen]

I do agree with what OP said about 4 being more on the androgynous side on things, given my personal experiences with 4s. A lot of them have this sort of bitter air to them that makes them less "soft" seeming, even if they present femininely otherwise. I'm 4 fixed technically, but for me I'm embracing my femininity these days, especially with dabbling more typical feminine fashions(I used to be nervous about wearing a skirt, but now I'm addicted to them). It's cause I didn't wanna people to be all, "So girly hughhhhhhhhh.". But really, I realized no one is going to care, and if they do care I'm going to get compliments. Skirts are really freeing, both in the way they feel and not worrying so much about how others are perceiving me. I consider myself perfectly feminine, but I very much prefer the company of men, I don't have to be one of the guys to be that way. Everything around me feels more natural when I'm talking to guys, but also I feel like internally I'm competing against other women in a girl eats girl world.

I hate admitting it, because it feels insulting to people who are actually trans, and it feels inauthentic to who I am now, but I thought I was a trans male in high school and would dress very masculine and in a way to have a more boyish figure. My body started feeling out of place with how I felt inside, and I was starting to craft the perfect image of me as male, dressing a bit like my dad. I don't recall what made me stop doing it, but eventually I did and my body stopped bothering me. I never told anyone, but my stepmom did find some chest binders in my laundry and that was really awkward-I just brushed it off in conversation and we stopped talking about it.

Even when I was younger, and was girly enough, I had a pressure on me from my mom to me feminine and it hurt. It's ironic too, given my mom presented really tomboyish and badass and eschewed over-femininity. I remember one time I didn't feel like wearing makeup for this chorus concert, and my mom starting freaking out and saying that I should "be a girl." And then there was this one day where I was experimenting with some makeup, and my mom was like, "You don't need makeup, you're naturally beautiful." ???? I remember this one time where they wrote an article about me in the school newspaper, and they used my nickname instead of my full name and my mom got angry because she said that people might thing of a boy. I really did not care. There was a pic of me in the article too, did I look like a dude?? I retaliated a bit-I didn't really act boyish or anything but I started picking low-key fashions in a way of telling her that I didn't want to be her dress up toy. I really had no problems with being feminine, I just didn't want it stuffed in my face.

I've had the concept of gender for a long time, and it's only recently stopped truly bothering me. I've hated the idea of people acting a certain way just because of our body parts. I deal with people who think gender roles should apply to one situation, and should be disregarded in another. They can do them, it's just confusing-well they probably see it as different people having the same opportunities. Still, should there really be a difference? The reason I've become a bit more feminine is because I have this idealized image of femininity in my head(being lady like in my kindness, trying on different feminine roles from being a Yamato Nadeshiko to being a woman of the 50s and 60s to a hip 90s girl). I guess that's where my 4ness can be linked to gender, constructing an idealized image of myself-and maybe the way I retaliated against gender as well and my mom making feeling like there was something wrong with me.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I don't think E4s are androgynous by nature, but I think their gender identities are constructed in an individualistic manner rather than a normative one.

Some of the iconic activities I associate with have strong gender framing references that frustrate me. I often feel like if I choose to play a particular instrument or engage in a particular dance form that there is always framing baggage that people associate with it. Personally I don't choose what I do based on externalized gender notions, but rather with activities I enjoy. I tend to feel confined by the assumptions they carry. For example, I've gotten into bellydance and really enjoy it for its beauty and potential eroticism but it isn't about pleasing "the men" at restaurants. I don't have an external social application for it and like the creative videos they make at the studio where I study. I also play an instrument associated with women, but in a very conservative, church like way, and when I look at the broader image it really annoys me. My primary profession has a strong masculine framing which is also annoying to me. The women who are successful in it present themselves as really butch to help with credibility. Pretty much everything about gender framing of various activities is a source of frustration to me. I tend to like the people who defy these things. I should openly defy them more, but that also has a social component to it, so is probably more comfortable for people with Fe or Enneagram so instinct.

 

[Pessimistic Hippie]

If we take into account exactly what gender identity is, and how much it differs from biological sex (we don't come into the world wanting makeup or business suits,) I feel it really does make sense why there'd possibly be a connection with at least some 4s sort of rebelling from it. And them being one of the most likely types to do so, if not for any other reason than to see and be something different.

A 4 would be one of the most likely types to see something that is standard, question why it has to be that way (could be a subconscious thing,) and then try to reinvent it in their own way entirely if they don't find some fact-based reason. There are many avenues which a 4 can do that with so of course that doesn't mean they're going to be androgynous or something by default. But I at least know that in my experience, that played a big part in why I went the route I did and I do feel that I wouldn't have been as likely to fuck with the status quo if not for that innate instinct.

 

[Coriolis]

I do agree with what OP said about 4 being more on the androgynous side on things, given my personal experiences with 4s. A lot of them have this sort of bitter air to them that makes them less "soft" seeming, even if they present femininely otherwise. I'm 4 fixed technically, but for me I'm embracing my femininity these days, especially with dabbling more typical feminine fashions(I used to be nervous about wearing a skirt, but now I'm addicted to them). It's cause I didn't wanna people to be all, "So girly hughhhhhhhhh.". But really, I realized no one is going to care, and if they do care I'm going to get compliments. Skirts are really freeing, both in the way they feel and not worrying so much about how others are perceiving me. I consider myself perfectly feminine, but I very much prefer the company of men, I don't have to be one of the guys to be that way. Everything around me feels more natural when I'm talking to guys, but also I feel like internally I'm competing against other women in a girl eats girl world.

I hate admitting it, because it feels insulting to people who are actually trans, and it feels inauthentic to who I am now, but I thought I was a trans male in high school and would dress very masculine and in a way to have a more boyish figure. My body started feeling out of place with how I felt inside, and I was starting to craft the perfect image of me as male, dressing a bit like my dad. I don't recall what made me stop doing it, but eventually I did and my body stopped bothering me. I never told anyone, but my stepmom did find some chest binders in my laundry and that was really awkward-I just brushed it off in conversation and we stopped talking about it.

Even when I was younger, and was girly enough, I had a pressure on me from my mom to me feminine and it hurt. It's ironic too, given my mom presented really tomboyish and badass and eschewed over-femininity. I remember one time I didn't feel like wearing makeup for this chorus concert, and my mom starting freaking out and saying that I should "be a girl." And then there was this one day where I was experimenting with some makeup, and my mom was like, "You don't need makeup, you're naturally beautiful." ???? I remember this one time where they wrote an article about me in the school newspaper, and they used my nickname instead of my full name and my mom got angry because she said that people might thing of a boy. I really did not care. There was a pic of me in the article too, did I look like a dude?? I retaliated a bit-I didn't really act boyish or anything but I started picking low-key fashions in a way of telling her that I didn't want to be her dress up toy. I really had no problems with being feminine, I just didn't want it stuffed in my face.

I've had the concept of gender for a long time, and it's only recently stopped truly bothering me. I've hated the idea of people acting a certain way just because of our body parts. I deal with people who think gender roles should apply to one situation, and should be disregarded in another. They can do them, it's just confusing-well they probably see it as different people having the same opportunities. Still, should there really be a difference? The reason I've become a bit more feminine is because I have this idealized image of femininity in my head(being lady like in my kindness, trying on different feminine roles from being a Yamato Nadeshiko to being a woman of the 50s and 60s to a hip 90s girl). I guess that's where my 4ness can be linked to gender, constructing an idealized image of myself-and maybe the way I retaliated against gender as well and my mom making feeling like there was something wrong with me.

I at least can't find any insult in the highlighted. Many young people go through a process of exploration regarding their own gender identity as well as sexuality. I wish family, friends, and other onlookers would stop freaking out about it. That just adds to stress, misunderstanding, and potentially more risky behaviors. Is it better to experiment like you did and learn first hand that the masculine "you" wasn't comfortable; or forever to have that possibility lurk at the back of your mind, a forbidden fruit to remain untasted, or to explode in midlife perhaps, when much more is at stake? The former seems much healthier and more constructive.

I grew up in an environment surprisingly free of gender-related pressures, or perhaps I just managed to ignore them. Expectations at home at least were quite even handed. I have started wondering lately if that is a double edged sword when it comes to gender identity. In one sense, it should leave you free to develop the identity that is real for you. In another sense, not being continually forced into gender-based roles and expectations can mask the disconnect between the internal and the external, since when you are allowed to live your life pretty much as you want, it doesn't really matter that much, does it?

Answer: of course it does. Even extremely effective, well-established, to the point of being reflexive, coping mechanisms are still just coping mechanisms, not "you".

Yes, there are many ways to be feminine, and to be a woman (not synonymous). Find the way that's right for you, the way that IS you, and don't worry about the rest.

I don't think E4s are androgynous by nature, but I think their gender identities are constructed in an individualistic manner rather than a normative one.

Some of the iconic activities I associate with have strong gender framing references that frustrate me. I often feel like if I choose to play a particular instrument or engage in a particular dance form that there is always framing baggage that people associate with it. Personally I don't choose what I do based on externalized gender notions, but rather with activities I enjoy. I tend to feel confined by the assumptions they carry.

I agree with this. I don't know if it is because I have 4 last, but I also find many things are best understood in an individualistic manner, at least inter/intrapersonally. To do otherwise is to deny reality. At best, a normative approach is like the shoe store. Few of us get custom made footwear any more, we go to the store and find the size that most closely approximates our feet. The range of sizes available in the store, however, says nothing about the size and shape of the feet we actually have.

I, too, have no patience with what you call gender framing here, and like you, choose what I do based on interest, enjoyment, and sometimes necessity. I ignore the assumptions they carry.

 

[Saturnal Snowqueen]

I at least can't find any insult in the highlighted. Many young people go through a process of exploration regarding their own gender identity as well as sexuality. I wish family, friends, and other onlookers would stop freaking out about it. That just adds to stress, misunderstanding, and potentially more risky behaviors. Is it better to experiment like you did and learn first hand that the masculine "you" wasn't comfortable; or forever to have that possibility lurk at the back of your mind, a forbidden fruit to remain untasted, or to explode in midlife perhaps, when much more is at stake? The former seems much healthier and more constructive.

I grew up in an environment surprisingly free of gender-related pressures, or perhaps I just managed to ignore them. Expectations at home at least were quite even handed. I have started wondering lately if that is a double edged sword when it comes to gender identity. In one sense, it should leave you free to develop the identity that is real for you. In another sense, not being continually forced into gender-based roles and expectations can mask the disconnect between the internal and the external, since when you are allowed to live your life pretty much as you want, it doesn't really matter that much, does it?

Answer: of course it does. Even extremely effective, well-established, to the point of being reflexive, coping mechanisms are still just coping mechanisms, not "you".

Yes, there are many ways to be feminine, and to be a woman (not synonymous). Find the way that's right for you, the way that IS you, and don't worry about the rest.


I agree with this. I don't know if it is because I have 4 last, but I also find many things are best understood in an individualistic manner, at least inter/intrapersonally. To do otherwise is to deny reality. At best, a normative approach is like the shoe store. Few of us get custom made footwear any more, we go to the store and find the size that most closely approximates our feet. The range of sizes available in the store, however, says nothing about the size and shape of the feet we actually have.

I, too, have no patience with what you call gender framing here, and like you, choose what I do based on interest, enjoyment, and sometimes necessity. I ignore the assumptions they carry.

Thanks. I guess for me it's like how some people question the validity of LGBTQ folk by saying it's a phase, and obviously it isn't for a lot of people but for me it really was. I experimented with transitioning, and now I want nothing to do with it. I've had people say that kind of stuff can't be a phase either, the LGBTQ community themselves. That seems like a bit of BS though, I mean I know they want to feel validated, but like you said, people should have to right to dabble in sexuality and see what makes them feel good and what feels right feel for them. If you end up being "normal", so be it, if you're the other 10% of the population, then it's good that you took the time to find the piece of yourself that was missing. I am a little glad I ate the forbidden fruit, because without that I wouldn't have embraced femininity in the way now and the sensuality that goes along with it(fashions, feeling good in my female body, feeling like a goddess, etc.)

 

[Jai]

I don't think I have much to say that hasn't already been covered, but I'd still like to share my own perspective. I've had issues regarding my own gender for a few years now, and I think that they're partly derived from E4 tendencies. Androgyny has always been attractive to me, and as such I've wanted to emulate it myself; I also don't like the feeling of being constrained by labels placed upon me by others, but my ideal solution to that issue is one in which I form my own label rather than have no label at all (because that'd feel like a lack of identity). As noted by others, that sort of rejection is not uncommon for 4s, and sometimes it can be difficult to discern how much the desire for a different identity is simply the product of wanting to rebel against the current one. Sometimes I also wonder if my search for an apt gender identity is also part of the broader search for a label/identity that fully encapsulates my essence, a profoundly 4ish aspiration, and if I'll be satisfied with any answer or if I'll continue to reject them in favour of looking for something deeper. I'm often asked online which pronouns I'd like to be referred to (since I don't project as strongly feminine nor masculine), and I'm never quite sure what to say, defaulting to they/them as it's the least ill-fitting of the main three. All this to say, it's a topic that is intrinsically tied to my character as a whole, and one that I approach from a place of craftsmanship rather than adoption; like most things regarding a 4's identity/image, it's something that I want to create for myself.