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[Type 4] 4s & gender

CzeCze

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CZEEEEEE!! XX OO

OP - This brings up something that has been bothering me for some time. When I was young, I was very subdued and self-contained. I was the archetypal wallflower, albeit a very intense and irascible one. I stayed "tomboy" for a lot longer than my other girlfriends, into my teens. I felt boyish and enjoyed "boy" activities (or things associated traditionally with boys), like anything that meant getting dirty, while liking "girly" things, like clothes and glitter and make-up. I stayed shuttered up in myself into my teens, even after my first boyfriend at 16.

My sister tells me that I "came into my own" in my early to mid 20s. I'm not sure what happened. Something just kicked in. It was and is a mystery to me - I just woke up one day and there it was? I felt altered somehow. After that, I began noticing that I attracted both men and women sexually, which was surprising to me because I feel, at any given time, a great deal less attractive than my sister and my female best friends who are both vibrant and pretty. My ENTJ best friend has reported being attractive to other women, and she isn't sure why.

Is that "male" energy? Is that "androgyny"? Does it have to do with being a sx 4?

I'm not sure? It's very frustrating. I don't find mysteries flattering.

Hai!

Keke, this reminds me of an article I read in Curve or Bitch magazine or something. Basically it was talking about 'lesbian chic' and how frustrating it was because you would hit on women who you TOTALLY thought was queer because they dressed and styled themselves "very lezzie" (including thick unattractive glasses, short choppy haircuts, leather bracelets, etc.) but "they aren't a lesbian, they're a book editor, or an artist, or some other artsy occupation and have a boyfriend". Haha. I think this is around the time L Word was coming out.

I think in your case perhaps you give off a wild or "alternative lifestyle" energy and that's what is attracting the women. I think this probably happens to yoga teachers, belly dancers, and punk bassists. :alttongue: Women get from your energy and persona that you are anti-establishment/open to things including dating other women. Or they are just attracted to your spunk. Queer women generally like spunky women.

I think the reason your ENTJ friend attracts women is different. My EXFJ roommate was very straight but 1) she had a very domineering, assertive personality (very bossy but not in a girly way :p) and 2) she wore a lot of flannel and always wore pants (HAHAHAHA) She said she got hit on by women all the time, especially when she had a short haircut.
 

typologywhore

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Like women 4s usually have a cold, hardass element that seems out of place, while male 4s usually have a gentle, sympathetic element that seems out of place... even though ultimately male & female 4s are probably mostly the same.

What do you think? Are 4s the most androgynous type?

Hn, well. This is an issue close to my heart. -blushes- I don't really have a theory on the matter to extend to all 4s, but maybe a bit of info on my own situation may be of interest.

I identify as androgyne (that is, both/neither male/female), I feel very queer and un-heteronormative: I'm bisexual and a girl who does feel like a girl, yes, but also feels like he's a boy as well or at the same or every other day or every other second, and also feels like they're neither. This is a big part of my identity, and so to realise/express it I do very much cultivate androgyny in my self-presentation. Some of this is at the level of clothes choice -- I combine both guy's and girls' stuff, and will dress "more boy" some days and "more girl" others, depending on which element of myself I want to embody at that particular time. And it extends to behaviour, too; I tend to semi-consciously adopt gay guy-ish kinda mannerisms in order to come across as generally more queer/faggy because that's always good, right? :cheese:

I've often wondered how people read me in terms of gender and sexual orientation and actually asked a friend the other day what he pegged me as initially: the answer was "cool-tomboy-girl, and straight...ish"...which I found rather amusing because straight is the last thing I feel, haha XD

So how does 4-ishness play into this? Well, it was that natural aptitude for extremely probing, high-focus internal awareness that has enabled me to realise my gender "issues"/whatevahthefuckthisis in the first place; and it's the need for both honest and unique self-expression that moves me to try to express my felt experience of my gender through presentation and behaviour.

And a side-note: not long ago I read someone claim that the whole atmosphere of the contemporary queer scene is very 4w3. Perhaps this is part of the reason why 4s are often perceived as more-than-averagely androgynous and/or queer?
 

Turtledove

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I'm a 4 and I personally don't see myself as "androgynous" as you describe. I do enjoy some guy stuff like action movies and RPG video games while enjoying other feminine things like faeries and clothes. I'm short and petite and I wear skirts and dresses a lot.

For the record, I knew you were a guy, just more emotional. It's because of your writing style and the pic you took a while back in one of the forums. :D
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah, this is exactly why I thought I was an INTP for awhile. There are a lot of INFP descriptions out there which make us sound like we are extroverted feelers and I didn't relate to that at all.

This isn't to say that I'm not feminine, I guess. But not in the traditional way. In all honesty, I don't perceive myself in terms of gender all that much. I don't think of myself as a woman so much as a human. I often find myself identifying more with male musicians/writers/protagonists, not because they are male, but just because they often don't seem to be so caught up in gender. They are people, vs with females/female characters there often seems to be this emphasis on being a woman, confiding in your girl friends/ female solidarity, etc, that I really don't relate to.

I'm super feminine in some ways, but it's more with shallow stuff, such as a girly appearance or an interest in fashion (which I'm finding is really a gender neutral interest; tons of women hate fashion & some men really like it). Besides a general timidity more often associated with femininity, I don't consider my demeanor heavily feminine (but not necessarily masculine). I remember being in school around groups of girls at recess and not relating to how they acted or what they'd say. I'd tend to just develop one or two close friends for that reason, not hanging with a group of girls.

I too identity heavily with a lot of male characters/musicians as much as female ones (because there are female ones I identify with, but then they are often written to be or come across as "different"). Unfortunately, female characters are often reduced to conveyors of ideas about typical women or ideal women, not fully fleshed out individuals with flaws & idiosyncrasies (except a few cutesy quirks). But that's a tangent...

i definitely have more feminine than masculine traits, but i've always had some kind of disconnect with most girls where i feel unlike them. but not a tomboy or a guy's girl either, although i do find guys easier to hang out with sometimes. i guess it's the whole maternal caretaker thing, i just don't have it. me and my best friend always talk about how we're not 'real' girls.

The bolded is a big thing for me too as far as feeling different.... I never oohed and ahhed over babies or kids, never babysat, never dreamed of being a mom. I like kids, I even work with them, but I have no desire to care for them. When I work with little kids, internally I feel slightly annoyed when they need me to tie their shoe or whatever. I find my approach reminds me of male teachers I had growing up; I'm more about imparting knowledge than nurturing.

I would never call myself a tomboy either, and as I said above, I can be quite girly superficially, but I've never had the maternal thing going on, nor the "social group" thing. I get along great with other women, but it's usually one-on-one. As an adult, I've made a conscious effort to try & relate to people more, instead of immediately seeing what is "different" and then feeling "different" (4 issue there...), and that includes my interactions with women I'd otherwise feel alienated from. It's definitely helped to ease the sense of alienation, but then I still get direct feedback from people informing them I am different in some ways.

For example, I had a conversation with my ISFJ mom where I was arguing that a lot of supposed gender traits are stereotypes or a result of social conditioning, and that individual personality has more impact on how people think/feel/act. My mom was listing stuff that "all women" do and "all men" do, and then I pointed out where I was an exception to some of those to prove my point, and her reply was, "Yeah, but you're.... different". :D
 

Matt_s

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4w5 male here. I like to think I'm more macho than I was growing up. (I just found myself yelling at a televised football game after typing the previous sentence). The simple act of analyzing one's masculinity strikes me as feminine. I've always been far too accommodating to be very masculine.

Eventually I arrived at the conclusion that the most accommodating thing I could do was bust balls and slap backs. Being a kind and nurturing man makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Sometimes I wonder if I went full on ass-hole somewhere along the way but I tell myself if I have to ask I haven't. Any masculinity I display is just a reaction to my inherent instinct to care for people's feelings.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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4w5 male here. I like to think I'm more macho than I was growing up. (I just found myself yelling at a televised football game after typing the previous sentence). The simple act of analyzing one's masculinity strikes me as feminine. I've always been far too accommodating to be very masculine.

Eventually I arrived at the conclusion that the most accommodating thing I could do was bust balls and slap backs. Being a kind and nurturing man makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Sometimes I wonder if I went full on ass-hole somewhere along the way but I tell myself if I have to ask I haven't. Any masculinity I display is just a reaction to my inherent instinct to care for people's feelings.


:rofl1:
 

Jade Curtiss

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Or gender "roles", if you think life is like a performance.

First question: isn't life like a performance??

But, I think 5s are the least gender-particular Enneagram type. All 5s are kinda the same, in their behavior. 4s are more mysterious, usually they have some androgynous feature that's hard to put your finger on. Like women 4s usually have a cold, hardass element that seems out of place, while male 4s usually have a gentle, sympathetic element that seems out of place... even though ultimately male & female 4s are probably mostly the same.

What do you think? Are 4s the most androgynous type?

So you see 5s as lacking gendered traits in general, and 4s having a mixture of stereotypically masculine and feminine traits, right? I can agree with this to an extent, but overall I see 5s as being primarily a masculine type (probably the second most masculine after 8s actually), and 4s as more feminine. The typically cold, calm, logical, unexpressive nature of 5s is closer to the average western idea of masculinity than the deeply emotional, sensitive nature of 4s. But for most cultures, the archetypal gender roles would be 2 for females and 8 for males.

As a 5 with a strong 4 wing, I identify as more masculine than feminine, but also feel adrogynous in some circumstances.
 

FunnyDigestion

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For the record, I knew you were a guy, just more emotional. It's because of your writing style and the pic you took a while back in one of the forums. :D

Hehe, thanks.. I always appreciate someone acknowledging me. :smile:

I find women a lot easier to hang out with because I can flirt with them, & my natural communication style tends to be somewhat flirtatious. I used to find that some men seemed uncomfortable talking to me, like they thought I was hitting on them or something. & a lot of times I've been talking to men-&-women together & the guy's gotten pissed at me b/c he thought I was hitting on his girlfriend. I guess subconsciously I usually am, but the intensity of the reaction is always baffling to me. Like I was blackout drunk at a bar one time & got in a fight with some guy because he thought I was flirting with his girlfriend.. which I guess I'm proud of because it means I can successfully flirt with people when I'm "totally wasted", but i ended up with a broken wrist the next morning so i ultimately wasn't too happy with it.

So, I suppose I feel androgynous in the sense that femininity is very easy for me to understand-- I could probably very easily play the woman role in a theatrical tragedy like Romeo & Juliet. I could do it with grace, beauty, & precision, & probably win some awards at it. Oh yes... that stuff is very easy to me. Femininity is the counterpart to masculinity, so... if you understand one you understand the other, right?

As for being a 'maternal caretaker', I suppose the male counterpart to that is being a disciplinarian, which I hate... I don't believe in it. Authority figures are very loathsome to my eyes.

Last thing, I recall one of the characteristics listed of 4s (as well as INFPs I believe) was the tendency to "daydream about a rescuer"... I think there's a lot of deep truth to that, & that not necessarilya feminine thing. It's like having someone to finally understand you. when I was a kid I was always day-dreaming of saving girls off railroad tracks & whatnot... the 'damsel in distress' thing is a very basic part of my psyche. Although now I guess I'm probably more in need of rescue than any girl, funny how the tables turn. I guess one's the natural flipside to the other. The distressed princess is the flipside to the courageous hero. The one contains the other.
 

hhp

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So you see 5s as lacking gendered traits in general, and 4s having a mixture of stereotypically masculine and feminine traits, right? I can agree with this to an extent, but overall I see 5s as being primarily a masculine type (probably the second most masculine after 8s actually), and 4s as more feminine. The typically cold, calm, logical, unexpressive nature of 5s is closer to the average western idea of masculinity than the deeply emotional, sensitive nature of 4s.

I totally agree with this. I'm a girl and a 5, but I've always felt more "masculine" than feminine really. There's nothing masculine in my appearence (maybe just the fact that I almost never wear skirts or dresses, but that's all), nor do I look like a tomboy, play football or like cars, etc... But there's something that I feel alienates me from other women; I don't relate much with their emotional problems or their usual interests (fashion, shopping, romantical books or movies...). My best friends are women indeed, but there's like a gap between us.
Also, in front of a baby I'm completely expressionless (although I can get quite tender with baby-animals) and I don't have maternal instincts at all.

I've had these traits since my earliest years as a kid; I never wanted to play with dolls, only with toy dinosaurs, spiders, monsters and the like. So it's not really something learned from the environment, but an inborn characteristic.
Many times I feel sad and uncomfortable being a woman. Guess I'd been happier being a (gay) man....

However, I'd like to think that all these gender roles are just products of our society, that there's nothing in nature that truly says that power and strenght is "masculine" and tenderness or emotions are "feminine". Nowadays the roles seem too inflexible. The artists from Romanticism, for example, exalted feelings above everything else, and nobody thought of them as girly because of that (as crazy, maybe).
 

CrystalViolet

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I exclaimed once at work " I swear I'm a gay man, trapped in a women's body." My co-worker at the time, told me it would explain a lot if I was. I'm still not quite sure how to take that.
That and I'm missing a maternal chip or some thing...apparently though, I'm all gentle and caring once you get past the gruff exterior. And who hates puppies?
Seriously though, I'm not particularly feminine for a woman. Sure I wear appropriate attire, even have a flair for fashion, but I don't feel real girly. I'm pretty intimidating "apparently", and aloof. I just don't look a nurturing mommy type.
 

sleepy

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First question: isn't life like a performance??

No. It's like perfume.

I could probably very easily play the woman role in a theatrical tragedy like Romeo & Juliet. I could do it with grace, beauty, & precision, & probably win some awards at it.
and the sleeping part? Do you think you could make Romeo fall in love with you? And the most important in that, the tragedy. It's not just Juliet. But Romeo is influenced by Juliet. And for the play to have the luscious aspects of love, beauty and tragedy genuine feelings makes it so much better. Like when you kiss Romeo, that the passion from the kiss can permeate the entire audience.
:)

I exclaimed once at work " I swear I'm a gay man, trapped in a women's body." My co-worker at the time, told me it would explain a lot if I was. I'm still not quite sure how to take that.
It's interesting you choose to use 'trapped'. This indicates disharmony. And that you you are not fully satisfied with the 'tools' you have to 'tackle' a man? My first idea was that the man wasn't interested, probably not gay.

If you mean social. I wouldn't worry. These are imo mostly constructs, and anyone can play any role, if learned(ignoring slow learners). But the next dimension, that is different.
 

CrystalViolet

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It's interesting you choose to use 'trapped'. This indicates disharmony. And that you you are not fully satisfied with the 'tools' you have to 'tackle' a man? My first idea was that the man wasn't interested, probably not gay.

If you mean social. I wouldn't worry. These are imo mostly constructs, and anyone can play any role, if learned(ignoring
slow learners). But the next dimension, that is different.
Where's my troll spray?
 

CrystalViolet

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I keep mine in my bag, look there. Read again. I actually used a bit of time on that post. You can address a point I am wrong about, and we can discuss it.
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Reread my post, I didn't mention any men.
 

FunnyDigestion

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and the sleeping part? Do you think you could make Romeo fall in love with you? And the most important in that, the tragedy. It's not just Juliet. But Romeo is influenced by Juliet. And for the play to have the luscious aspects of love, beauty and tragedy genuine feelings makes it so much better.

The sleeping part is probably my best part, that's what I practiced for. That's when I learned how to make Romeo fall in love too. They (the characters) appeared to me in a dream & said it... of course. My geuine feelings are a millions of peelings.

Like when you kiss Romeo, that the passion from the kiss can permeate the entire audience.
:)

Yeah, that's what I'd do. I would permeate the audience.
 

hhp

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and the sleeping part? Do you think you could make Romeo fall in love with you? And the most important in that, the tragedy. It's not just Juliet. But Romeo is influenced by Juliet. And for the play to have the luscious aspects of love, beauty and tragedy genuine feelings makes it so much better. Like when you kiss Romeo, that the passion from the kiss can permeate the entire audience.

Funny that you say that, since in Shakespearean times female roles were played by young men. Also, what has to do the real sexuality of actors with the quality of performance? As long as they're good actors, it's not needed that they love or hate each other in real life.

There are lots of gay actors, and I don't see anybody complaining because they have to kiss women that they don't like.
Double standards anybody?
 

sleepy

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I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Reread my post, I didn't mention any men.
Yes you did.
I'm a gay man
It obviously matters that I called your coworker a he. Not sure why.
The sleeping part is probably my best part, that's what I practiced for. That's when I learned how to make Romeo fall in love too. They (the characters) appeared to me in a dream & said it... of course. My geuine feelings are a millions of peelings.
That's great. But do you also fall in love, or is it just Romeo? I guess I mean the 'loose yourself in someone'.

Funny that you say that, since in Shakespearean times female roles were played by young men. Also, what has to do the real sexuality of actors with the quality of performance? As long as they're good actors, it's not needed that they love or hate each other in real life.

There are lots of gay actors, and I don't see anybody complaining because they have to kiss women that they don't like.
What? A straight actor can suck as much as a gay actor.

But you do not understand my point. Ask yourself. What gives you the most emotions. A real life transfer of a hanging of some innocent person, say gay people in Irak, or some cartoon animation if similar incident. The former may not even be allowed to show.

So yes, I do think it will give the best performance if straight people play straight people, and gay people play gay people. Or just as bad.. the emotions doesn't have to be there then either. With Shakespeare it was forbidden for women to play, right? Religious stuff. I think that was why men had to do the acting. I'm sure a woman could have done just a good a job at the time. Or perhaps it would have been the same. FunnyDigestion suggest that it would be similar, or more of an personal ability to ignite emotions in the love aspect of the other person..
 

zelo1954

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Fours, I typically scan as female regardless of true gender.

Well I have to tell you I have been categorized as an "honorary woman" by a certain person at work. I probably would have regarded this more positively had it happened 1:1, but it happened with practically everyone in on it. I suppose I should be thankful they were all women.
 
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