[Type 8] Are 8 and Fi similar?

[entropie]

The Enneagram is about spiritual enlightenment, not really self-actualization which is a Western psychological term (Maslow). We know the MBTI is definitely of Occidental European origin. But the Enneagram came out of Russia with it's highly mystical cultural tradition (circa early 1900s). Once you delve into The Fourth Way in any depth, you find that the Enneagram came from some really weird stuff.

Russia is prolly one of the states in the world who is secularized the most. Russian are not unknown for their high education and intellectual capabilities, I think you are doing them a bit unfair if you talk their culture down to mystery.

Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.

 

[Mal12345]

Russia is prolly one of the states in the world who is secularized the most. Russian are not unknown for their high education and intellectual capabilities, I think you are doing them a bit unfair if you talk their culture down to mystery.

Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.

I did say circa early 1900s, parenthetically perhaps. But that is the relevant historical context. And even then, I'm not saying that G.I. Gurdjieff, the founder of the Fourth Way, wasn't a very intellectual person. He was obviously highly capable in that realm.

I agree however that Russian culture shouldn't be oversimplified, in that it has many elements.

 

[entropie]

Fourth way ?

 

[rav3n]

The Enneagram is about spiritual enlightenment, not really self-actualization which is a Western psychological term (Maslow). We know the MBTI is definitely of Occidental European origin. But the Enneagram came out of Russia with it's highly mystical cultural tradition (circa early 1900s). Once you delve into The Fourth Way in any depth, you find that the Enneagram came from some really weird stuff.

Religion and mysticism are not the same thing.

Quite frankly, it's all cultish nonsense to me whether religion or mysticism. Enneagram was based on far more than you've stated. It has both religious and mysticism roots that span more than Occidental Europe. I also reject the mysticism aspects of Jung's works.

This doesn't mean that there aren't some excellent insights into human behaviours, as well as insights into the human psyche that are worth investigating and considering. These are the areas that appeal to me. If I had to pick one over the other, MBTI/Jungian Cognitive functions would be my preference since it's not intended to coerce you into spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Mal12345]

Regarding the spiritual path you definitly lost me as well.

G.I. Gurdjieff taught about various types of men. Here is the barest kernel of his thinking from his Wikipedia biography:

"Gurdjieff argued that many of the existing forms of religious and spiritual tradition on Earth had lost connection with their original meaning and vitality and so could no longer serve humanity in the way that had been intended at their inception. As a result humans were failing to realize the truths of ancient teachings and were instead becoming more and more like automatons, susceptible to control from outside and increasingly capable of otherwise unthinkable acts of mass psychosis such as the 1914-18 war. At best, the various surviving sects and schools could only provide a one-sided development which did not result in a fully integrated human being. According to Gurdjieff, only one dimension of the three dimensions of the person - namely, either the emotions, or the physical body or the mind - tends to develop in such schools and sects..."

Notice already we have the three Enneagram centers (or "triads"), emotional, physical, and mental - although he didn't call them that. These correlate with the three spiritual types of men: the yogi, the monk, and the fakir. Each of these types highly develops one specific faculty to a great extent, while the other two faculties go fallow. But he argues in his books that they develop their abilities without full knowledge of what they are doing. A yogi is capable of great physical feats, but it is more like self-hypnosis, it occurs without full understanding of the underlying psychic processes involved. The Fourth Way encompasses all three, it seeks a spiritual harmony, and tries to accomplish this without the necessity of leaving the world and entering some kind of monastic existence. Continuing with one's normal life is very important to walking the path of spiritual harmony.

Today we use the Enneagram to ponder our own navels, but this only entrenches us deeper in personality and this has nothing to do with the spiritual core of our being.

 

[Mal12345]

Quite frankly, it's all cultish nonsense to me whether religion or mysticism. Enneagram was based on far more than you've stated. It has both religious and mysticism roots that span more than Occidental Europe. I also reject the mysticism aspects of Jung's works.

This doesn't mean that there aren't some excellent insights into human behaviours, as well as insights into the human psyche that are worth investigating and considering. These are the areas that appeal to me. If I had to pick one over the other, MBTI/Jungian Cognitive functions would be my preference since it's not intended to coerce you into spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

The spiritual mumbo-jumbo basically boils down to freeing oneself from an automaton-like existence.

 

[entropie]

G.I. Gurdjieff taught about various types of men. Here is the barest kernel of his thinking from his Wikipedia biography:

"Gurdjieff argued that many of the existing forms of religious and spiritual tradition on Earth had lost connection with their original meaning and vitality and so could no longer serve humanity in the way that had been intended at their inception. As a result humans were failing to realize the truths of ancient teachings and were instead becoming more and more like automatons, susceptible to control from outside and increasingly capable of otherwise unthinkable acts of mass psychosis such as the 1914-18 war. At best, the various surviving sects and schools could only provide a one-sided development which did not result in a fully integrated human being. According to Gurdjieff, only one dimension of the three dimensions of the person - namely, either the emotions, or the physical body or the mind - tends to develop in such schools and sects..."

Notice already we have the three Enneagram centers (or "triads"), emotional, physical, and mental - although he didn't call them that. These correlate with the three spiritual types of men: the yogi, the monk, and the fakir. Each of these types highly develops one specific faculty to a great extent, while the other two faculties go fallow. But he argues in his books that they develop their abilities without full knowledge of what they are doing. A yogi is capable of great physical feats, but it is more like self-hypnosis, it occurs without full understanding of the underlying psychic processes involved. The Fourth Way encompasses all three, it seeks a spiritual harmony, and tries to accomplish this without the necessity of leaving the world and entering some kind of monastic existence. Continuing with one's normal life is very important to walking the path of spiritual harmony.

Today we use the Enneagram to ponder our own navels, but this only entrenches us deeper in personality and this has nothing to do with the spiritual core of our being.

Sounds intresting, I'll read up on it. I basically like all wisdoms who consider humanity in distinct elements with the conclusion that the integration of all parts or the acceptance is key. The word spiritual and mystical set me off.

 

[Mal12345]

Sounds intresting, I'll read up on it. I basically like all wisdoms who consider humanity in distinct elements with the conclusion that the integration of all parts or the acceptance is key. The word spiritual and mystical set me off.

I did call them the three "spiritual" types of men, so it gets confusing when terms aren't properly defined. What Gurdjieff means by "spiritual" is completely different from that of the faithful Monk who prays to God but doesn't understand why.

 

[rav3n]

The spiritual mumbo-jumbo basically boils down to freeing oneself from an automaton-like existence.

It's only automaton if you perceive it as such. My beliefs surround holistic humanity, which includes being attached to body and essence. We are the apex predator, we are animals.

 

[Mal12345]

It's easy to see the wisdom in Gurdjieff's teachings. To say that man is an automaton points to the simple fact that, as adults, we develop habits that are difficult to break, and structured routines that begin to lose their meaning as the decades go by. This part isn't a mystery. And we have seen that organized religions like to keep their followers in the dark about the esoterica, releasing to them an exoterica which may or may not reflect the church's true doctrines. So the religious pray and follow rituals which they do not understand but nevertheless keep them firmly within their shallow comfort zones. Mother Church is hardly more than returning to the womb for these types. So I think Gurdjieff has made many valuable social observations. But the mysticism (the octaves and all that) is very difficult to master.

 

[Mal12345]

It's only automaton if you perceive it as such. My beliefs surround holistic humanity, which includes being attached to body and essence. We are the apex predator, we are animals.

"Apex predator" is a relative term. What would happen if all the microbes, or even all the earthworms, were to suddenly disappear from the face of the earth? Now which organism is at the top of the heap?

 

[entropie]

It's easy to see the wisdom in Gurdjieff's teachings. To say that man is an automaton points to the simple fact that, as adults, we develop habits that are difficult to break, and structured routines that begin to lose their meaning as the decades go by. This part isn't a mystery. And we have seen that organized religions like to keep their followers in the dark about the esoterica, releasing to them an exoterica which may or may not reflect the church's true doctrines. So the religious pray and follow rituals which they do not understand but nevertheless keep them firmly within their shallow comfort zones. Mother Church is hardly more than returning to the womb for these types. So I think Gurdjieff has made many valuable social observations. But the mysticism (the octaves and all that) is very difficult to master.

Well without sructured routines my life would be hell. I dont have the time on a busy day to reinvent the wheel everyday, money aint waiting .

I think he rather portraied a very gloomy future to put emphasis on his beliefs as an escape out of it. What he lacked in my opinion is an alternative. I mean there are so many ways people choose to lead a happy life, its a big tough to say they are all automatons suffering from stereotypes that prevents them from growing. But I agree that this may apply to some people.

 

[Mal12345]

Well without sructured routines my life would be hell. I dont have the time on a busy day to reinvent the wheel everyday, money aint waiting .

I think he rather portraied a very gloomy future to put emphasis on his beliefs as an escape out of it. What he lacked in my opinion is an alternative. I mean there are so many ways people choose to lead a happy life, its a big tough to say they are all automatons suffering from stereotypes that prevents them from growing. But I agree that this may apply to some people.

It's like I wanted to ask a certain type 5 on this forum who told me he was at the top levels of development - why don't you move onward and upward? What an opportunity to progress. While it sounds nice to be, say, at Level 1, there is still more, and more, and more... to be at Level 1 is still, to use your term, to be stereotyped. It is, relatively speaking, undeveloped according to the Way.

So often, people don't choose to live a happy life, it just so happens that, fortunately, such a life has "chosen" them. Of course happy people will take credit for it, and avoid chalking it up to the luck of the draw.

 

[rav3n]

"Apex predator" is a relative term. What would happen if all the microbes, or even all the earthworms, were to suddenly disappear from the face of the earth? Now which organism is at the top of the heap?

And what if your 2 year old nephew accidentally gets hold of a gun and shoots you while sleeping?

 

[Mal12345]

And what if your 2 year old nephew accidentally gets hold of a gun and shoots you while sleeping?

My 2 year old nephew isn't a species.

 

[rav3n]

My 2 year old nephew isn't a species.

Two year old are a species unto themselves...

Regardless, it's all moot and rabbit hole diving. I hear your points so hopefully, you hear my points. That we don't agree is kind of meaningless. It just means that people are different, with different perceptions and needs in life.

 

[Mal12345]

Two year old are a species unto themselves...

Regardless, it's all moot and rabbit hole diving. I hear your points so hopefully, you hear my points. That we don't agree is kind of meaningless. It just means that people are different, with different perceptions and needs in life.

I can relate to Gurdjieff through Immanuel Kant. Both of them criticized moral people. Gurdjieff thought that moral people were just another form of automaton. Kant went a little deeper and noticed that moral people are not truly moral because (in my own words) morality is just a habit for them, like the habitually honest person who couldn't tell a lie even if you paid him to. He's not honest, really, he's just following a ritual or routine, an ingrained manner of being.

 

[Mal12345]

I think the term for that is "pathological" honesty. Pathology is just a form of automatism. A moral pathology is something one can't help being. Morality can't exist without the possibility of immorality.

 

[A window to the soul]

The coin is the psyche. Everyone one "has" every function in his/her brain. Every conscious Fi user is a conscious Te user and every unconscious Te user is an unconscious Fi user. Dominance is not the point of what I'm talking about. Dominance only talks about how much of a cognitive function you use.

Lots of Fi-doms can be 8s. There are INFPs enneagram 8. I'm an ENFP 9w8. lots of Fi-doms are also 9s. And that's the whole point...the correlations being made between enneagram and MBTI are too superficial.

The number of FP males enneagram 8 is not at all negligible. The gut instinct is not just a physical thing. It relates to anger specifically. If you are and FP male, life gives you plenty of reasons to be angry from a very early age.This too is an oversimplification....what I'm getting at is that cognition and motivation are related but not in a clear cut way. There are cultural phenomenons that deeply affect all of this too. Your sex plays a part too.

This forum alone should be proof enough that enneagram and MBTI don't always neatly correlate. One thing to bear in mind is that these models are just that, models. Expecting perfect internal coherence within one model is one thing....but when you superimpose two models things change.

Which is not to say there is no relation between the two. Obviously there is, it's the psyche. What I'm talking about is not so much theory as it is practice. There are very weird enneagram+mbti combinations that aren't neatly accounted for with Te = 8, Pe = 7, 1 = J etc etc

I've met ENFPs that were 7s, 4s, 3s, 2s and even 9w1s and can tell you any in-depth implication made from knowing the cognitive functions alone is not gonna tell you how they conduct their lives. (ENFPs are just an example).

The instincts are also something that can change throughout life. Meditation alone, can have a tremendous effect on your head, gut, and heart (probably good to remember enneagram always had spiritual aspirations, the point being integrating into a "whole" [holy] person).

The map is not the territory.

8 assert their presence. They can do it with Te or Se or they can voice Fi or whatever else....none of the functions accounts for other human abilities like talking, raising one's voice etc...

I appreciate your creativity there, but no matter how hard you try to spin it, 8 and Fi are not similar. That's a fact!

 

[Athenian200]

I believe that ExFP types make VERY good candidates for type 8. I've been spending a lot of time with an ENFP 8 on another forum I frequent, so I've been getting a very good idea of how it works.

However, I don't believe that type 8 is similar to raw Fi by itself. Certainly, an Fi user COULD be like that, but type 3 or 4 would fit better, for instance.

To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that Enneagram and MBTI are referring to the same thing, or that we can so easily map types. There might be some tendencies, certainly, but there could just as easily be exceptions.