[Type 9] Any 9 experts around here?

[Asterion]

Also, I feel the same way about social situations that a 5 would. I guess I like socializing sometimes, but I often feel like I like my mind better, my own little world where I can do whatever I want. When I'm with my friends, a lot of times it feels like I'm just going through the motions, I'm never fully there and fully engaged. I was just walking back from class with a friend earlier, and she kept telling me to "Say something!" when I didn't really have anything to say. My mind doesn't automatically go to conversation topics, but she didn't seem to get that. I like having friends, but I don't like having obligations and expectations placed on me, and I quickly get tired from socializing and need to get away so I can breathe again.

9 and 5 are the most introverted types from the enneagram.

I definitely spaceout in the same way as you, like an autopilot mode. It takes me a lot of effort to snap out of, and I constantly have to remind myself to focus on reality, no matter how stark it is. However, it's a different story at work, or when studying, I can work quite persistently and become focused. There are some things I will just focus on as much as possible and become obsessed and perfectionistic.

For fives, that focus is active far more often, one of my friends feels the need to drink just to dull his focus so he can feel normal. 5s have spent their whole life working out how things work, how reality fits together. Whereas, 9s have spent their life in a wondrous dreamworld. (yeah, I know, that sounds useless compared to 5s).

If you feel like smiling all around the clock, even if you're not actually happy, you're probably a nine. If you're naturally humble, chivalrous and modest and perhaps timid and unassertive, 9. If you're slow to judge people, 9. For example, one of my school friends would defend a criminal with 'what ifs?', and my teacher (a 5) would just smirk knowingly and try to convince her otherwise.

Some of the descriptions for 9 are mostly spot on, other details can be true for some nines, but not for others. There are 9s that act exactly how you describe socially, and there are some that retreat from reality to preserve their inner peace, I think it's similar to the phobic/counterphobic attribute of type 6.

As for conflict, I generally run away. Whenever my parents yelled at me when I was little, I would try to retreat to my head. As soon as I could get away, I'd go to my room and read and get wrapped up into a fantasy novel and just drown out all of the negative thoughts and feelings, or run away from home and climb a tree and dream of something better.

I frequently find myself stealing other types motivations, either directly from other people or when pursuing my own ideology. It's the chameleon quality so commonly discussed on this forum, this makes it hard to work out who you really are because you drown yourself in stolen idealized qualities.

I can't usually demand, or force what I want. For lunch, I will generally tag along with whoever is with me, even if I know I can't afford it, I will go with what they want, because I feel my own want is simply less important.

Keep in mind that a lot of these qualities make their way into INFP descriptions, and people sometimes stereotype INFPs as type 9. I have these qualities, but I'm quite distinctly INTP. MBTI is an entirely different system to the enneagram, look up definitions of each dichotomy and work out all four separately. I think a lot of MBTI descriptions try to weave personality into the system, MBTI is not so much a personality system, it is a series of preferences that define how you think and behave.

 

[Silveresque]

9 and 5 are the most introverted types from the enneagram.

I definitely spaceout in the same way as you, like an autopilot mode. It takes me a lot of effort to snap out of, and I constantly have to remind myself to focus on reality, no matter how stark it is. However, it's a different story at work, or when studying, I can work quite persistently and become focused. There are some things I will just focus on as much as possible and become obsessed and perfectionistic.

For fives, that focus is active far more often, one of my friends feels the need to drink just to dull his focus so he can feel normal. 5s have spent their whole life working out how things work, how reality fits together. Whereas, 9s have spent their life in a wondrous dreamworld. (yeah, I know, that sounds useless compared to 5s).

If you feel like smiling all around the clock, even if you're not actually happy, you're probably a nine. If you're naturally humble, chivalrous and modest and perhaps timid and unassertive, 9. If you're slow to judge people, 9. For example, one of my school friends would defend a criminal with 'what ifs?', and my teacher (a 5) would just smirk knowingly and try to convince her otherwise.

Some of the descriptions for 9 are mostly spot on, other details can be true for some nines, but not for others. There are 9s that act exactly how you describe socially, and there are some that retreat from reality to preserve their inner peace, I think it's similar to the phobic/counterphobic attribute of type 6.

As for conflict, I generally run away. Whenever my parents yelled at me when I was little, I would try to retreat to my head. As soon as I could get away, I'd go to my room and read and get wrapped up into a fantasy novel and just drown out all of the negative thoughts and feelings, or run away from home and climb a tree and dream of something better.

I frequently find myself stealing other types motivations, either directly from other people or when pursuing my own ideology. It's the chameleon quality so commonly discussed on this forum, this makes it hard to work out who you really are because you drown yourself in stolen idealized qualities.

I can't usually demand, or force what I want. For lunch, I will generally tag along with whoever is with me, even if I know I can't afford it, I will go with what they want, because I feel my own want is simply less important.

Keep in mind that a lot of these qualities make their way into INFP descriptions, and people sometimes stereotype INFPs as type 9. I have these qualities, but I'm quite distinctly INTP. MBTI is an entirely different system to the enneagram, look up definitions of each dichotomy and work out all four separately. I think a lot of MBTI descriptions try to weave personality into the system, MBTI is not so much a personality system, it is a series of preferences that define how you think and behave.

I'm still not sure which type I am. For 9, there are a lot of things that fit and a lot of things that don't fit, and for 5, it's more like there are a few things that fit and a few that don't fit. I certainly don't feel as cerebral as 5's are made out to be. My mind isn't active all the time to the point where I have trouble shutting it down and relaxing. Sometimes I have moments where I totally space out and can't even recall what just happened in the last 5 seconds.

I think you're right about how 9's can act that way socially. I've noticed that one of the disorders associated with type 9 is schizoid personality disorder, so I find it hard to believe that all 9's move toward others and want to socialize. It looks like they can head toward one extreme (schizoid) or the other (dependent). I fall in the moving toward schizoid side. So I don't know, maybe I'm a 954 tritype, since I that would make a more withdrawn and introspective 9.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Here's the deal:

9s want to maintain their physical relation to the world by adopting a serene, malleable, easy-going presence - they are body-based and fixated on their physical relation to the world,
5s are typically emotionally and physically reticent, and can have trouble keeping in touch with their own physical presence because they bloody overthink everything.

To drive the nail in further,

9s don't over-think things the way 5s do,
5s don't feel all that comfortable in the world the way 9s do

There isn't that much more to it - everything else is window dressing.

Yes they're both quiet, but they're very very different otherwise. You're going to fall down one of these, I'm sure of it. Don't get lost in wings and tritypes and subtypes, you're just over-complicating things.

I think you're right about how 9's can act that way socially. I've noticed that one of the disorders associated with type 9 is schizoid personality disorder, so I find it hard to believe that all 9's move toward others and want to socialize. It looks like they can head toward one extreme (schizoid) or the other (dependent). I fall in the moving toward schizoid side. So I don't know, maybe I'm a 954 tritype, since I that would make a more withdrawn and introspective 9.

Schizoid is characteristic of Fives, not Nines. Fives are the ones that withdraw out of a resignation - they have no emotional stake in life, so why should other people interest them?

 

[Silveresque]

Here's the deal:

9s want to maintain their physical relation to the world by adopting a serene, malleable, easy-going presence - they are body-based and fixated on their physical relation to the world,
5s are typically emotionally and physically reticent, and can have trouble keeping in touch with their own physical presence because they bloody overthink everything.

To drive the nail in further,

9s don't over-think things the way 5s do,
5s don't feel all that comfortable in the world the way 9s do

There isn't that much more to it - everything else is window dressing. Yes they're both quiet, but they're very very different otherwise. You're going to fall down one of these, I'm sure of it.

Probably 5, but I only overthink things sometimes. Then again, that could be the difference between an INTP 5 and an INFP 5; INTP's want to analyze everything and have knowledge for it's own sake, while INFP's only bother with things that are really important to them.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Probably 5, but I only overthink things sometimes. Then again, that could be the difference between an INTP 5 and an INFP 5; INTP's want to analyze everything and have knowledge for it's own sake, while INFP's only bother with things that are really important to them.

OH, and ignore MBTI as well.

Here's a question - what do you think about?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Probably 5, but I only overthink things sometimes. Then again, that could be the difference between an INTP 5 and an INFP 5; INTP's want to analyze everything and have knowledge for it's own sake, while INFP's only bother with things that are really important to them.

I am an INFP, 9w1, 937 tritype, so/sp.

I don't get a 9 vibe from you fwiw. In fact, and please don't take offense at this, I don't get a big INFP vibe either.

BUT, back to enneagram - the things you are posting in this thread do not indicate 9-ness to me much at all. I think if you're a 9, the idea of disconnecting under stress and trying to please everyone will intrinsically ring true for you.

You feel more 5'ish, but I will read more of your posts and see if my initial thoughts bear up to the scrutiny. I could see 9 in the tritype, especially since you have some confusion around it, perhaps 594?

"Accepting and intuitive 5. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 5, especially if self-preserving. This 5 is very inhibited and uncomfortable in social settings. Highly introspective, this 5 is a deep thinker with still waters running deep" Source~The 27 Tritypes Revealed Fauvre & Fauvre

I love what I see as the complementary aspects of type + enneagram, but I agree with [MENTION=5632]VagrantFarce[/MENTION]: in trying to figure out enneagram type, forget about MBTI. It just muddies the waters.

And I like this test and have recommended it to many: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

It is $10 though.

 

[Silveresque]

BUT, back to enneagram - the things you are posting in this thread do not indicate 9-ness to me much at all. I think if you're a 9, the idea of disconnecting under stress and trying to please everyone will intrinsically ring true for you.

I disconnect under stress, but I don't go out of my way trying to please everyone. I just retreat into isolation, and then feel bad because I'm ignoring my friends by not contacting them.

You feel more 5'ish, but I will read more of your posts and see if my initial thoughts bear up to the scrutiny. I could see 9 in the tritype, especially since you have some confusion around it, perhaps 594?

"Accepting and intuitive 5. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 5, especially if self-preserving. This 5 is very inhibited and uncomfortable in social settings. Highly introspective, this 5 is a deep thinker with still waters running deep" Source~The 27 Tritypes Revealed Fauvre & Fauvre

This tritype fits. I've been trying to decide between 592 and 594. Do you have the description for 592?

And I like this test and have recommended it to many: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

It is $10 though.

I just took the free first part of that test yesterday, actually. It came down to 5 or 9, and I chose 5, but only because of my bias. I think if I didn't know anything about the enneagram or have any impression of what type I was, I probably would have chosen 9. Then again, the first time I took that test a while ago I got 1 as my first and second card.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=14216]RevlisZero[/MENTION]

592: Accepting and caring 5. This is the most gentle, kind hearted 5. This five tends to be passive but is dutiful with a 6 wing. This is the 2'ish 5 that wants to help, especially if a social subtype. This 5 is usually introverted but can at times move towards others.



I would say, leave this for a bit. I had the benefit of encountering enneagram just a couple of years ago, when I was over 40, and could look at my life and behaviours and see how 9 fit me in a flash. I suspect the lack of clarity may be from simply seeing too much of yourself in any one type. Which is a 9'ish kind of thing to do, but perhaps some time away from scrutiny will help.

Plus, you could do the Riso-Hudson test for type. I know everyone flocks to the free tests, but my general philosophy on some of them is that you get what you pay for.

 

[wolfy]

I don't withdraw under stress, I get tunnel vision.

 

[Silveresque]

Schizoid is characteristic of Fives, not Nines. Fives are the ones that withdraw out of a resignation - they have no emotional stake in life, so why should other people interest them?

According to Riso and Hudson, 9's are dependent at level 6 and schizoid at level 7 (Understanding the Enneagram). 9's become schizoid when they idealize their relationships without actually making an effort to maintain them, which is kind of what I do. I like the idea of having friends more than actually having them and dealing with the work that goes into maintaining those friendships. I can't relate to the dependent personality disorder of level 6, but then again I skip level 6 in type 5 as well.

I'm not saying this makes me a 9. I still have a lot of things to sort out, like the 9's aspect of merging, which I don't think I relate to at all. And then there are the core fixations.

Fixation: Stinginess [Retention]*

Stinginess refers to the ego mind's tendency to hold onto experiences and information in an effort to build up knowledge and power and to maintain a familiar orientation with reality. It is as if the mind were stockpiling resources to prepare for some future catastrophe. Thus, Fives spend their time gathering information, skills, and resources to "build themselves up," as if they were creating a separate space in which to prepare themselves to re-enter reality.

The problem is that identifying with the mind this way detaches us from the support of our Being and from feeling connected with the world. Further, if Fives are continually thinking that they need more and more information or skill before they can really live, it is going to be very difficult to get their lives started, and it is also going to be frightening to give, to be generous with one's self. It is as if Fives are thinking "There is not enough of me even for me. If others want things from me, there won't be anything left. I need time to build myself up." However, no amount of studying, learning, or hoarding makes them feel any more ready to deal with their lives.

Fixation: Indolence [Daydreaming]*

The loss of the Holy Idea of Holy Love results in the ego-fixation of indolence. It is a style of attention that causes us to avoid deep contact with our interiority. We might be aware of others or of the environment, but we are not aware of what is happening in our presence. Even if we are able to be present to some degree, indolence causes us to be present without content. Of course, as we become more entranced by this fixation, we also lose any meaningful awareness of others too.

Because of the loss of Holy Love, the self feels lost and centerless, but indolence causes us to cover over the wound of that loss by withdraw from it into the "safety" of our imaginations. We may deal with it by adopting comforting philosophies, or by focusing on and idealizing others. We learn to disengage our attention from the core of ourselves so we will not feel the suffering caused by our loss of contact with Essential love, the very core of ourselves.

Thus, Nines become the masters of dissociation, of mentally "checking out" when situations threaten to uncover the primal loss of contact with Holy Love. In their imaginations they create an imitation of the real feelings of wholeness and benevolence that arise in presence and real contact with experience. This inner feeling of peace is then defended against the actual dynamic processes of reality—thus, indolence serves to perpetuate sloth. When Nines retreat into their inner reality, they deal with other peoples' demands, either by agreeing to them or deflecting them. They want to minimize the chances of getting into conflicts or disagreements with others because this would upset their inner peace. On the surface, Nines seem quite easy going, agreeable, and adaptable. They are friendly and do not seem to mind going along with the wishes of others, but on a deeper level, Nines do not want to be made to change, or to be other than who and what they are already comfortable with.

It seems that the 5's isolation comes from their fixation, which is collecting knowledge, which comes from their fear of being overwhelmed by the world. I fear not being good enough and making mistakes, but that doesn't cause me to collect knowledge. I may be a recluse, but in my isolation I'm not really collecting information (except typology stuff, but I'm not sure that counts ), I'm pretty much wasting time. I can spend a whole day doing nothing but daydreaming and listening to music, because it's easy and comfortable. 9's fixation of indolence seems to fit, but I'm not sure I have a strong understanding of it at this point, so I'll have to do more research.

 

[VagrantFarce]

It seems that the 5's isolation comes from their fixation, which is collecting knowledge, which comes from their fear of being overwhelmed by the world. I fear not being good enough and making mistakes, but that doesn't cause me to collect knowledge.

What does it cause you to do?

I may be a recluse, but in my isolation I'm not really collecting information (except typology stuff, but I'm not sure that counts )

Why?

You don't have to reading a science book to be collecting knowledge, y'know. And "collecting knowledge" doesn't mean memorising facts, either - its all about attaining some sort of understanding.

 

[Silveresque]

What does it cause you to do?

I may be a recluse, but in my isolation I'm not really collecting information (except typology stuff, but I'm not sure that counts )

Why?

You don't have to reading a science book to be collecting knowledge, y'know. And "collecting knowledge" doesn't mean memorising facts, either - its all about attaining some sort of understanding.

It causes me to avoid taking risks and not say anything if there's a chance I could be wrong and look like an idiot. I don't think it's really what causes me to retreat into isolation, though. I isolate myself so that I can get away from social obligations and not have to do things I don't really want to do, and also because I'm more comfortable alone where I can be myself and do whatever I want without being judged. I feel like my friends would think I was weird if they knew that I spend much of my day foruming, and that I listen to weird music instead of the popular stuff. So to be myself without being judged, I like to be alone.

The reason typology doesn't count is because I've only been into it for the past few months. Before that, there wasn't really any kind of knowledge I was collecting. Those were the days when I would just sit and daydream and listen to music in my free time. Occasionally I would try to learn Japanese, but mostly through anime. And somewhere along the line, I seem to have lost my motivation...

 

[Asterion]

It causes me to avoid taking risks and not say anything if there's a chance I could be wrong and look like an idiot. I don't think it's really what causes me to retreat into isolation, though. I isolate myself so that I can get away from social obligations and not have to do things I don't really want to do, and also because I'm more comfortable alone where I can be myself and do whatever I want without being judged. I feel like my friends would think I was weird if they knew that I spend much of my day foruming, and that I listen to weird music instead of the popular stuff. So to be myself without being judged, I like to be alone.

The reason typology doesn't count is because I've only been into it for the past few months. Before that, there wasn't really any kind of knowledge I was collecting. Those were the days when I would just sit and daydream and listen to music in my free time. Occasionally I would try to learn Japanese, but mostly through anime. And somewhere along the line, I seem to have lost my motivation...

That kind of reminds me of my astrophysics tutorials, the tutor asks a question that everyone knows the answer to, but nobody says anything out of that fear. I forced myself to answer all questions once, and one correct answer would lead to further questioning until the tutor found something that I didn't know, it's a complete nightmare, so now I stay quiet even if I know the answer, lol.

If you listen to different music, you just introduce it to other people, no? I love going through heaps and heaps of albums finding new music that I like and sharing it with people.

Anyway, that sounds quite much like 5, you don't want to put yourself out there and expend all of your energy because you fear that you will loose what you know and love, that they will take away your foruming and weird music taste with their judgement. Maybe I'm spinning your words too much though, but that's what I think it might be. What the enneagram writings tell you though is that you will gain energy from other people and that the fear of loosing all of that effort and energy is invalid, unless your friends are assholes and they intend to suck you dry, but that's not what you're telling us is it.

I don't think 9s care about that kind of effort/energy so much, they move towards others, assimilate them and thrive off of their energy to the point where they loose themselves and their own identity.

 

[Silveresque]

I found this thread on the Enneagram Institute forum that gives reasons each type might have for being a loner: (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26182)

Originally posted by JoL
9: To prevent loss of sense of self

That's interesting. Because of the 9 tendency to merge and lose themselves around others.

I can see how that's the case with me. Like I'm not really "myself" when I'm around others. I'm too much in the background. When I'm completely alone, I'm in the foreground of my own life and consciousness.

Maybe similar to the 5. The 5 needs alone time to "recharge energy" and 9 needs alone time to regain their sense of self.

It's strange that this is giving me another angle with which to view the "loss of self" and merging into others that is talked about for 9s.

The sense of self is easily dispersed and merged with the environment, but in isolation is re-collects and condenses back into a solid form, rather than the gaseous/etheric background merging.

(posted by eidbuser)

I can very much relate to withdrawing to preserve my sense of self. I conform too much around others, so I can only really be myself when I'm alone. Of course, I also need to recharge like a 5 would, but I think introverts in general can relate to that.

 

[brainheart]

I can very much relate to withdrawing to preserve my sense of self. I conform too much around others, so I can only really be myself when I'm alone. Of course, I also need to recharge like a 5 would, but I think introverts in general can relate to that.

I withdraw to preserve my sense of self, too, but not because I conform too much but because it gets old feeling so different than everyone all the time. When I'm alone it's totally fine being me.

Fives do not conform.

I really wish you would face the fact and accept you are a nine. What do you have against it? Nines are very cool... (although the nine is so strong in me maybe I'm being a total hypocrite here.)

 

[wolfy]

I can very much relate to withdrawing to preserve my sense of self. I conform too much around others, so I can only really be myself when I'm alone. Of course, I also need to recharge like a 5 would, but I think introverts in general can relate to that.

Here are all of them...
1. The lessen the pain of the inability to socially adapt
2. Wounded pride
3. To admit defeat
4: To protect the rawness
5: To prevent being overrun
6: To grow less dependent
7: To avoid the negative emotions of others
8: To prevent loss of strength
9: To prevent loss of sense of self

I relate to 8 more, I withdraw to prevent a loss of strength. But self is mixed in with that. But it is the 8 description I perceive more. I also relate to 4, To protect the rawness. I just like the sound of that one. To protect the rawness.

 

[Moiety]

if there is one thing I've learned about enneagram is that it's powerful IF you don't take it at face value. I mistyped as many things other than 9 because I couldn't see myself in "always accommodating others" and stuff like that.

The map is not the territory.

Only by getting in touch with what you TRULY really want for yourself and others, can you start getting an idea of what your enneatype is. Any strongfelt emotion is a good pointer.

I think one of the best things you can do is by looking at your holy idea and trying to find out what it is. Not what other people say it is, but what it is really. What is PEACE/LOVE really all about? Is APATHY or SLOTH peace? Is withdrawing from others LOVE?

Are any of the romanticized IDEAS we have ABOUT concepts like love or peace any true? Is love a romantic, sentimalistic, sappy thing? Or is it something different? Is peace a room full of people all agreeing to the same thing with complete lack of conflict or dynamic? Is sitting around all day the answer to either of those things? Or anything else for that matter? Wouldn't it be nice to find out for a change?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Have you ever made a "Type Me" video? Do that and let us see you, that would be a better gauge than all of this guessing.

 

[brainheart]

I just like the sound of that one. To protect the rawness.

I like the sound of it too. But what the hell does it mean?

So you don't get dulled by convention maybe? I can see that.

 

[Silveresque]

I withdraw to preserve my sense of self, too, but not because I conform too much but because it gets old feeling so different than everyone all the time. When I'm alone it's totally fine being me.

Fives do not conform.

I really wish you would face the fact and accept you are a nine. What do you have against it? Nines are very cool... (although the nine is so strong in me maybe I'm being a total hypocrite here.)

To be honest, I would rather be a 9 than a 5. I just want to know that I'm a 9 before I go changing my type.

if there is one thing I've learned about enneagram is that it's powerful IF you don't take it at face value. I mistyped as many things other than 9 because I couldn't see myself in "always accommodating others" and stuff like that.

The map is not the territory.

Only by getting in touch with what you TRULY really want for yourself and others, can you start getting an idea of what your enneatype is. Any strongfelt emotion is a good pointer.

I think one of the best things you can do is by looking at your holy idea and trying to find out what it is. Not what other people say it is, but what it is really. What is PEACE/LOVE really all about? Is APATHY or SLOTH peace? Is withdrawing from others LOVE?

Are any of the romanticized IDEAS we have ABOUT concepts like love or peace any true? Is love a romantic, sentimalistic, sappy thing? Or is it something different? Is peace a room full of people all agreeing to the same thing with complete lack of conflict or dynamic? Is sitting around all day the answer to either of those things? Or anything else for that matter? Wouldn't it be nice to find out for a change?

But I thought 9's fixation of indolence comes from the loss of holy love? In other words, if I'm an average 9, would I really be able to relate to holy love if I've supposedly lost it? When I read the description, it sounds good, but I'm not sure how much I can really relate to it, since I don't normally think about love much. Then again, I don't even understand 5's holy idea. When I read it it doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that particular description is just confusing.

Anyways, good idea. Time to start thinking outside the box and figure out what my holy idea is.

Have you ever made a "Type Me" video? Do that and let us see you, that would be a better gauge than all of this guessing.

I've considered making a "Type Me" video. But I keep putting it off and getting distracted by other things. That, and I'm very shy and it sounds scary.