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[Type 8] Unhealthy 8s.. and 8s in love

Chloe

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How does an unhealthy 8 look like ? :shrug:

In general, what are your experiences with 8s and love? Especially unhealthy ones. :)

I dont know many 8s, only one quite well. I am pretty shocked how difficult they can be when unhealthy. :shock: There seems to be no right move around them. Everything is a sign that you're enemy. Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"
 

Elfboy

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unhealthy 8s are literally impossible to communicate with; healthy 8s are some of the easiest people in the world to communicate with. the only advice I can give for dealing with an unhealthy 8...get back up, you will need it whether the confrontation is verbal or physical. healthy 8s are easy to talk to. they're rational, open minded and interested in getting the right information to solve the problem. communication for 8s is a way to gain knowledge to leverage as power. if you have a superior alternative, a healthy 8 is all ears.

Even if you try to show love, thats "looking down at 8"
I can relate to this. my natural response when I have a crush on a guy is to distance myself from him. if he's friendly, I'm usually polite and respectful, but more aloof and formal. if he's a hawt douche bag, I avoid him and tell myself "hmph, I don't need him"

most 8s in love look something like this:

 

Kierva

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Never loved anyone before, so I wouldn't know. However, in terms of crushes I would back off and be more formal when forced to communicate with him.

It's a totally different story if an 8 is pursuing you, though. They can be emotionally intense (just ask Elfboy :p) and at times really smothering. They become more 2-like, in a sense.

I have been an unhealthy 8. Pretty much everything that has been regurgitated by adults "advising" me to be "respectful" and "give way" to my mother was not heeded. Back then I didn't particularly care for other people's advice, I just followed what I thought was right. If it meant fighting, then fight it is.

Bottomline is that unhealthy 8s don't listen to anyone but themselves. Back off, don't get involved with them in the first place.
 

Chloe

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Never loved anyone before, so I wouldn't know. However, in terms of crushes I would back off and be more formal when forced to communicate with him.

haha, this is EXACTLY what i experienced...getting more formal as there are more feelings... is that out of fear or something ????


It's a totally different story if an 8 is pursuing you, though. They can be emotionally intense (just ask Elfboy :p) and at times really smothering. They become more 2-like, in a sense.

I have been an unhealthy 8. Pretty much everything that has been regurgitated by adults "advising" me to be "respectful" and "give way" to my mother was not heeded. Back then I didn't particularly care for other people's advice, I just followed what I thought was right. If it meant fighting, then fight it is.

Bottomline is that unhealthy 8s don't listen to anyone but themselves. Back off, don't get involved with them in the first place.

HAHA, underlined - OMG, yes, I know. I see.


about elfboy, oh, I WOULD, I WOULD ASK HIM.. BUT HE'S A 4W3 YA KNOW :yim_rolling_on_the_



anyway.. i found this on personalitycafe, i think its EXCELLENT description of my experience with 8

I fell in love and am still in love. My previous girlfriends didn't make me feel this way.

Basically, we'll have a soft side that NO ONE sees, except you. And it will take a while for this to come out. We have to trust you first. If you show us softness and vulnerability, we're more likely to open up to you.

If we're unhealthy, we'll generally be controlling and domineering, sometimes incredibly aggressive, taking out our anger on you. Stay away if we're like this, and - if you're already in this predicament - threaten to break up if we don't stop. If we truly love you, we'll make the effort for you.

Expect there to be a lot of arguing, but stand up to it and deal with it. That's the only way you prove yourself to us, and the only way we can be vulnerable with you.
 

Elfboy

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Never loved anyone before, so I wouldn't know. However, in terms of crushes I would back off and be more formal when forced to communicate with him.

It's a totally different story if an 8 is pursuing you, though. They can be emotionally intense (just ask Elfboy :p) and at times really smothering. They become more 2-like, in a sense.

I have been an unhealthy 8. Pretty much everything that has been regurgitated by adults "advising" me to be "respectful" and "give way" to my mother was not heeded. Back then I didn't particularly care for other people's advice, I just followed what I thought was right. If it meant fighting, then fight it is.

Bottomline is that unhealthy 8s don't listen to anyone but themselves. Back off, don't get involved with them in the first place.

I'm really not emotionally intense at all (emotional intensity is something I envy when I do see it, so pure and unadulterated by logic and inhabitions), but your description is extremely accurate. 8s get reserved, closed off, paranoid and hostile when under stress.
 

Kierva

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haha, this is EXACTLY what i experienced...getting more formal as there are more feelings... is that out of fear or something ????




HAHA, underlined - OMG, yes, I know. I see.


about elfboy, oh, I WOULD, I WOULD ASK HIM.. BUT HE'S A 4W3 YA KNOW :yim_rolling_on_the_



anyway.. i found this on personalitycafe, i think its EXCELLENT description of my experience with 8

Well it's a fear of vulnerability. You let people in, they might hurt you. Crushes generally need you to become "romantic" in a sense. You're forced to open up -- no 8 wants to do that, unless of course, they're healthy.

about elfboy, oh, I WOULD, I WOULD ASK HIM.. BUT HE'S A 4W3 YA KNOW

No, I wasn't referring to Elfboy, I was referring to me :p He's on the receiving end of my mushiness <3
 

Kierva

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I'm really not emotionally intense at all (emotional intensity is something I envy when I do see it, so pure and unadulterated by logic and inhabitions), but your description is extremely accurate. 8s get reserved, closed off, paranoid and hostile when under stress.

And you call yourself a 4w3? xD

Anyways, before all the mushiness sets in there's usually a like a test -- if they question you and they deem you worthy, then the mushiness comes in. Before that you need to be in their VIP club. If not, they'll be extremely spiky and really caustic if you ever piss them and generally cold and aloof in their demeanor.

Every 8 is different and I'm the kind that selects people I assess as cool by observation and then just letting them into my VIP club :)
 

mmhmm

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i hate being misunderstood, by the people i truly care about.
this is the trouble with caring about people, with the good
feelings flowing, you're also susceptible to the poopoo kinds...
which all have potential to affect me, and possiblity to make me
lose control over, well, myself or the situation. and i really do not
like losing control.

it's not so hard to open up, it's just hard to find the right person
to open up to, because when i do, a lot of mushy goo comes
out too. and it'd be nice to have someone who understands
the different shades and meanings of what strength and
perseverance is.

if values don't line up, i don't even bother. people say i reject
others because of intimacy issues. i don't think it's the case.
i just don't have the capacity to open up to people i perceive
as weak--so i end up being very attracted to people who
i find are independent and strong. strength in this sense
is probably more about perseverance than anything, i like
those that have walked on broken glass and can offer
perspectives when i'm calm because i can get so blinded
by rage.

quiet strength, very hot. very attractive to me. the other
part is the ability to keep up with me--i have a huge
tendency towards excess, a very all-or-nothing frame
of mind. in my life, i've found that a lot of people find it
very hard to understand, i think it's because i'm always
constantly making up new rules and regulations for my
self and then when i get bored i'll break them. or make
new ones. (tangent: i think this is why i'm spectacular
at restrictive diets, i get so into it, get what i want out
of it, then i resume to eat in a way that nobody understands
how i keep the weight off)

i don't like being called out for my softer emotions, that's
the surest way for me to clam up or retract. i like to be
able to express it on my own time, my own way. if not,
i just end up denying/lying about it.
 

Elfboy

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No, I wasn't referring to Elfboy, I was referring to me :p He's on the receiving end of my mushiness <3
:hug:
 

ICUP

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8's are connected with antisocial personality disorder when unhealthy. Even my healthy 8 significant other, when pissed, will try to control me by taking my car keys, taking money and credit cards out of my wallet, etc. When actually unhealthy, they turn very antisocial and believe all people are disgusting, worthless, threatening, etc., and that everyone has an ulterior motive. They become very paranoid, especially thinking everyone is betraying them. They can become socially isolated, bitter, have a lack of conscience and empathy, and become hard-hearted. Unhealthy 8's can show episodes of rage, violence, and physical destruction, plotting vengeance, and retaliation against enemies. They can see themselves as outlaws, and be involved in criminal behaviors and circles. They strike back at society, as in sociopathy. In other words, they become the closest thing to a sociopath there is lol..... When angry, healthy 8's can show signs of it, as in, engaging in unhealthy behaviors temporarily.

My 8 SO can argue any side, even if he agrees with it or not. And when he is bored especially or has extra energy, he will argue points he does not believe in just for kicks. He expects you to figure out that he doesn't believe it, and to beat him at his own game. It's sport to him. His criticisms also are challenges. I have found ways to get around them, much as he does when he is criticized. He respects people who can challenge him and have good countering arguments, people who fight for what they want. He respects people who have strong boundaries, and are very expressive; people who are much like him. He has definitely strengthened me. If your 8 friend keeps criticizing you, chances are, he wants you to counter it, to tell him that no, he's wrong, and you will prove it to him. This could lead to a big, huge argument, one in which you will have to find a way to win eventually. Sometimes that means showing him that he's not so different from you, in showing him that hey, you left napkins on the counter, but he left hairs on the counter from shaving. (The "when did you become perfect?" counter) lol..... Once you show him the truth of the matter, he will stop doing it. And then eventually, you will have figured out how to get what you want from him, but it takes work. My 8 is not easily led or convinced. Sometimes it takes resources and time, but when it is enough to convince him, he will believe it, and he will change his tune. What I like about my 8 is that he will improve and grow with knowledge. Our relationship has grown into one of mutual respect. We both have criticisms of the other, and it is balanced. (In other words, you learn to become just as big of an asshole as he can be sometimes, and then you begin to realize, it's not nearly as serious to him as it is to me. I think people tend to take 8's way too seriously).

If you want an 8 partner, it really helps if you don't mind arguing on occasion, and you don't get too hurt by it or take it too seriously. If you hate to argue, don't pick an 8 partner lol.....it also helps to learn to wear him out so he doesn't have a lot of energy left over for arguing. lol...... Our relationship works because I keep goals in mind for the two of us, and keep us moving ahead, and working on projects. My 8 expects me to improve our personal lives, and to set goals in that direction. He does well in an office environment. He has little sp, so I have to take up the slack in that department.
 

rav3n

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The excerpt from personalitycafe doesn't address the underlying issues. What might be more telling, is at what point or points the 8 became critical or overcritical. Even if his criticisms appear to be random and at every action, it's possible you can figure out the underlying source to his attitude.
 

Chloe

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. He has definitely strengthened me. If your 8 friend keeps criticizing you, chances are, he wants you to counter it, to tell him that no, he's wrong, and you will prove it to him. This could lead to a big, huge argument, one in which you will have to find a way to win eventually. Sometimes that means showing him that he's not so different from you, in showing him that hey, you left napkins on the counter, but he left hairs on the counter from shaving. (The "when did you become perfect?" counter) lol..... Once you show him the truth of the matter, he will stop doing it. And then eventually, you will have figured out how to get what you want from him, but it takes work. My 8 is not easily led or convinced. Sometimes it takes resources and time, but when it is enough to convince him, he will believe it, and he will change his tune. What I like about my 8 is that he will improve and grow with knowledge. Our relationship has grown into one of mutual respect. We both have criticisms of the other, and it is balanced. (In other words, you learn to become just as big of an asshole as he can be sometimes, and then you begin to realize, it's not nearly as serious to him as it is to me. I think people tend to take 8's way too seriously).

If you want an 8 partner, it really helps if you don't mind arguing on occasion, and you don't get too .

your post is excellent. I relate to most of it. Definately agree on antisocial personality disorder :flop: What mbti type is your so?

An 8 I am talking about is the most difficult person I know, he is an ENTP and very social but also very unhealthy and hates the whole world, he is so convinced in his perception of reality that it is impossible to make him see there is totally different world out there. We argue all the time but I enjoy it very much, I love to argue lol, though in the beginning I was taking it too srsly but figure its not that serious at all. We usually argue about moral topics, politics, because he sees conspiracies everywhere.

I am interested how other 8s deal with life set backs. He is very very poor and very frustrated because of it, also convinced there is no way to get out of that hole because "world is designed for rich people", refuses any idea how to get a better job explaining how its impossible; its usually too much work for nothing or he says he couldnt take authority or this or that.. has 200 excuses in his sleave...
it is weird because from what i know 8s are people who want power and control but i guess he is so deeply convinced he cant have it that he quits before evem trying. Its a huge vicious circle.

Is there any way you can help unhealhty 8? As I said when I try to help I was accused of "looking down at him" etc..
 

Elfboy

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your post is excellent. I relate to most of it. Definately agree on antisocial personality disorder :flop: What mbti type is your so?

An 8 I am talking about is the most difficult person I know, he is an ENTP and very social but also very unhealthy and hates the whole world, he is so convinced in his perception of reality that it is impossible to make him see there is totally different world out there. We argue all the time but I enjoy it very much, I love to argue lol, though in the beginning I was taking it too srsly but figure its not that serious at all. We usually argue about moral topics, politics, because he sees conspiracies everywhere.

I am interested how other 8s deal with life set backs. He is very very poor and very frustrated because of it, also convinced there is no way to get out of that hole because "world is designed for rich people", refuses any idea how to get a better job explaining how its impossible; its usually too much work for nothing or he says he couldnt take authority or this or that.. has 200 excuses in his sleave...
it is weird because from what i know 8s are people who want power and control but i guess he is so deeply convinced he cant have it that he quits before evem trying. Its a huge vicious circle.

Is there any way you can help unhealhty 8? As I said when I try to help I was accused of "looking down at him" etc..

no, there is no way to help an unhealthy 8. they're not like a 6 or a 2, they can only help themselves. life in the eyes of an unhealthy 8 is a battle in which everyone is against him and he must destroy everything and everyone to maintain his autonomy.
PS: your 8 friend sounds NTJ, not NTP
 

Kierva

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Well I can't speak for other 8s but really, the only way I got out of unhealthy-ness was to realize that I am unhealthy and that I have to take time for myself to work on the inside.

An 8 relates to his environment, being a gut type and knowing 8s, they only listen to themselves. You mention about him being very very poor and how he's giving 200 excuses in his sleeve. I would think that for him to do anything, it would take him a bit of alone time to let him introspect. This would be "five disintegration" -- in a sense.
 

Chloe

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no, there is no way to help an unhealthy 8. they're not like a 6 or a 2, they can only help themselves. life in the eyes of an unhealthy 8 is a battle in which everyone is against him and he must destroy everything and everyone to maintain his autonomy.
PS: your 8 friend sounds NTJ, not NTP

He is a living and breathing ENTP without a miligram J, or Te or Ni, or Fi in his body, ty


i assumed theres no help, too bad im in love :doh:
 

ICUP

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your post is excellent. I relate to most of it. Definately agree on antisocial personality disorder :flop: What mbti type is your so?

He is entj.

An 8 I am talking about is the most difficult person I know, he is an ENTP and very social but also very unhealthy and hates the whole world, he is so convinced in his perception of reality that it is impossible to make him see there is totally different world out there. We argue all the time but I enjoy it very much, I love to argue lol, though in the beginning I was taking it too srsly but figure its not that serious at all. We usually argue about moral topics, politics, because he sees conspiracies everywhere.

I am interested how other 8s deal with life set backs. He is very very poor and very frustrated because of it, also convinced there is no way to get out of that hole because "world is designed for rich people", refuses any idea how to get a better job explaining how its impossible; its usually too much work for nothing or he says he couldnt take authority or this or that.. has 200 excuses in his sleave...
it is weird because from what i know 8s are people who want power and control but i guess he is so deeply convinced he cant have it that he quits before evem trying. Its a huge vicious circle.

Is there any way you can help unhealhty 8? As I said when I try to help I was accused of "looking down at him" etc..

My S.O. has never been in this state of mind as far as I know. He has gone through unhealthy periods but I did not know him at the time. He has hated people, but I don't think he has ever had problems with work. I am sure 8 manifests itself differently in entj. My 8 will listen, but he won't say he is listening. He takes feedback, and you know that by the changes he makes in his life, and in the way he responds. He listens when he thinks the information is true and helpful. I am not sure how entp's would respond, exactly. I would not tell my 8 that I was trying to help. I would just try to convince him of some concepts simply by talking about them, and probably then, arguing about them, and through gathering resources that would be helpful to my arguments. My S.O. will listen to good information. If he cares about you and respects you, he will listen to you, but you have to approach it correctly. At least that is how it is with my 8.... each new issue is a battle. LoL.....
 

Chloe

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I would not tell my 8 that I was trying to help. I would just try to convince him of some concepts simply by talking about them, and probably then, arguing about them, and through gathering resources that would be helpful to my arguments. My S.O. will listen to good information. ..

My first tactic wasnt "i want to help"; it was exactly what you're doing; reason, resources, proving that i am right, showing truth - but nothing of it works, i am not the first one to try... then i switched to "i am trying to help" because i thought maybe I can trick him with feelery approach haha
 

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I'm quite fond of 8's myself but they can be a brick wall or raging elephant, depending on the tactic they've chosen. Chloe, is it perhaps an idea to appeal to his entp side and go social morality (Fe) on him? As in, if society is to work, even if it's never going to work perfectly the way it should, people should really do this and this. Show him hat you too loathe the idea of giving up your freedom, but appeal to his T by showing the logic of 'if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' on which society is build and the many benefits it gives people. And make it clear that it is a flawed system (which means it's a system he can game once he learns the rules, if that's something that appeals to him) but it's better than nothing.

Also point out to him when those things around him happen, to make him see it's not all rotten to the core and some of it does work? Dont expect him to acknowledge it in the moment, but..show him how to notice it and see if he does on his own. As for what you're saying..he sounds insecure about dealing with the world, he might have tried and felt the world was trying to control him without giving him anything in return, or, might have been unwilling to give the world anything in return for profit as he saw it as controlling. I've found that ENTPs are, much like ENFPs, even more set on their freedom and perhaps resent being controlled more than ENTJs do, until they recognize the value of Fe and even then it's grudgingly, but they do 'man up' at that point.

He seems to be unsure if he should embrace that as it would be a slap in the face of his pride (conceding to others and allowing them some influence on him) as well as facing his worst nightmare at the same time, which is where insecurity comes in. :thinking:
 

ceecee

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If you want an 8 partner, it really helps if you don't mind arguing on occasion, and you don't get too hurt by it or take it too seriously. If you hate to argue, don't pick an 8 partner lol....

True and even my ENFJ learned how to not to get so butthurt - don't take it personally.

it also helps to learn to wear him out so he doesn't have a lot of energy left over for arguing. lol......

OMG this is true. It's like an endurance contest.

Our relationship works because I keep goals in mind for the two of us, and keep us moving ahead, and working on projects.

This is more me than him but I think that's because of gender factors and less about personality.
 
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