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[Type 7] Having doubts about my enneatype again =(

Elfboy revisted

  • 8w9

    Votes: 6 35.3%
  • 9w8

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2w3

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • 2w1

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • 4w3

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • 3w2

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • 3w4

    Votes: 4 23.5%

  • Total voters
    17

Mal12345

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yes, I read that previously, but I'm saying that the 6 motivation has never been my motivation. from level 2 clear down to level 9, my motivation has never been security or support from others. you've brought up references to me being like a level 6 type 6 several times, but this is the one level where 6s and 8s can look nearly identical

Agreed, that is a similarity to look out for.
 

Mal12345

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Let me put this issue of introspecting motivations from a personal perspective. My childhood motivation was to make friends. Does that correspond to the 6? Perhaps. But was it a core motivation? No. What was my core motivation as a child? I don't know.

In contrast to what SavageIdealist was advising above, core motivations are not that easy to discern. We learn our types from the descriptions, and then discover our motivations from reading, we don't determine our core motivations some other way and then determine our type from something in a book that matches it.

So if you'll pardon my saying so, you don't know what your core motivation was as a child, and I don't know what mine was. I can tell you some of the things I wanted such as friends, I can relate to you loneliness, longings, other feelings, but not something as abstract as "core motivations."
 

Elfboy

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Agreed, that is a similarity to look out for.

a few slightly off topic points
1) thinking more about the idea of being a type 6 fully integrated to 9, 9 represents balance and harmony is is that type that is said to possess traits of and relate to all the other 8 types. if I am fully integrated to type 9 at the highest levels, that would make me basically typeless and free to use the best traits of all the types to their fullest potential. my point is, I would actually like to agree with you, but everything in my gut is telling me I'm not a type 6 =P
2) just a heads up, we're probably going to be debating about this for a LONG time, but no hard feelings :D
 

Mal12345

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a few slightly off topic points
1) thinking more about the idea of being a type 6 fully integrated to 9, 9 represents balance and harmony is is that type that is said to possess traits of and relate to all the other 8 types. if I am fully integrated to type 9 at the highest levels, that would make me basically typeless.
2) just a heads up, we're probably going to be debating about this for a LONG time, but no hard feelings :D

None whatsoever. (My emote [buttons] don't work using Chrome anymore, they used to before the hacking incident.)

Where are you getting this idea that the high end of the type 9 is basically typeless? It's not that I haven't seen that idea batted around before. But if you look at the description of the 9 at level 1, it is not typeless.

You could make the same claim about any move to the point of integration. If I have done away with my core motivation, as a type 5 moving to 8, then am I typeless?

Edit: The type 9 at level 1 is described by Riso as an example of the unity of self. That does not mean unity of all the types.
 

Elfboy

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None whatsoever. (My emotes don't work using Chrome anymore, they used to before the hacking incident.)

Where are you getting this idea that the high end of the type 9 is basically typeless? It's not that I haven't seen that idea batted around before. But if you look at the description of the 9 at level 1, it is not typeless.

You could make the same claim about any move to the point of integration. If I have done away with my core motivation, as a type 5 moving to 8, then am I typeless?

I added a little to my last post, but no, I wouldn't say so. you would have integrated the aspects of a healthy type 8 and done away with your ego. with the 6 to 9 transformation in particular, the 6 embraces the best traits of type 9. type 9 is known as the crown of the enneagram as it embodies traits of all the other 8 types and represents balance and harmony. a 6 integrating to type 9 would therefore gain almost complete balance and access to traits from all the types by extension. I would think a 6 integrated to 9 would be an extraordinarily wise individual, much wiser than I am at least.
 

Mal12345

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I added a little to my last post, but no, I wouldn't say so. you would have integrated the aspects of a healthy type 8 and done away with your ego. with the 6 to 9 transformation in particular, the 6 embraces the best traits of type 9. type 9 is known as the crown of the enneagram as it embodies traits of all the other 8 types and represents balance and harmony. a 6 integrating to type 9 would therefore gain almost complete balance and access to traits from all the types by extension. I would think a 6 integrated to 9 would be an extraordinarily wise individual, much wiser than I am at least.

Type 9 represents unity of self. In a very abstract, really mystical way, you are correct. But this mysticism simply does not apply to the reality of personality types or personal growth. Integrating to 9 doesn't bring wisdom, only freedom from a certain want characterizing the 6 as anxieties (perceived or not) develop and grow.
 

Elfboy

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Type 9 represents unity of self. In a very abstract, really mystical way, you are correct. But this mysticism simply does not apply to the reality of personality types or personal growth. Integrating to 9 doesn't bring wisdom, only freedom from a certain want characterizing the 6 as anxieties (perceived or not) develop and grow.

I just think this is giving me too much credit. unity of life, spiritually abstract, mystical. I don't feel nearly balanced or healthy enough to fit that description lol
 

Mal12345

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I just think this is giving me too much credit. unity of life, spiritually abstract, mystical. I don't feel nearly balanced or healthy enough to fit that description lol

I didn't give you that much credit, however from what I've read you are a person of higher integration achievement, and therefore someone to be emulated.

As I said, my Enneagram reading indicates that those in the 3-6-9 triangle progress much more quickly. As for myself, as a 5 I'm afraid progress is much, much slower. Those of us in the other 6 points are burdened with having to enjoy the struggle toward an end that the other 3 much more quickly achieve.
 

Elfboy

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I didn't give you that much credit, however from what I've read you are a person of higher integration achievement, and therefore someone to be emulated.

As I said, my Enneagram reading indicates that those in the 3-6-9 triangle progress much more quickly. As for myself, as a 5 I'm afraid progress is much, much slower. Those of us in the other 6 points are burdened with having to enjoy the struggle toward an end that the other 3 much more quickly achieve.

I'm going to need to think about this for a while. I may post again in a few minutes or a few days
 

Savage Idealist

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Elfboy, I personally think that your an 8, judging from how much I know you.

Ultimately, the difference between 8 and counterphobic 6 (or any two types) is not a lengthy overanalysis that stretches for paragraphs on end, it's simple about what you fear, and what you desire based off that fear.

8's want power, and not this does not make them power hundry military commandoes, 8's can be friendly, nice, and cool, especially when they wing 9. What the 8 wants is a position of general authrotiy over others coupled with autonomy, because it fears that without personal power it'll be weak in the world, and thus a victim. Therefore an 8 will take stances on things, be assertive when needed, and desire a personal level of freedom and power for themselves.

CP 6's have rejected the fear of anxiety and no longer worry about finding security at all. Their rebellious attitude is toward authority in general, as they see no reason to live under the rule of another for security. This makes them unafraid to live uncomfortably or disregard social order at certain times or take a risk when needed. But unlike an 8 who is afraid of not having power, the CP 6 couldn't give two shits less.

So ask yourself, what is it, in all of life, that you so greatly desire in this world? What fear in your early life has impacted you in such a way that you have fromed certain convictions/desires based from it? And most importantly, what do you think you are?
 

Elfboy

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I didn't give you that much credit, however from what I've read you are a person of higher integration achievement, and therefore someone to be emulated.

As I said, my Enneagram reading indicates that those in the 3-6-9 triangle progress much more quickly. As for myself, as a 5 I'm afraid progress is much, much slower. Those of us in the other 6 points are burdened with having to enjoy the struggle toward an end that the other 3 much more quickly achieve.

what I'm about to say can be a case made for 8 or enlightened 6, but I wouldn't say getting to where I am today was easy. as mentioned previously, I have been done to depths of level 9 contemplating suicide and nursed myself psychologically back to health several hours a day for years with no outside materials or support from others. my progress that I've made thus far (whether it's level 1 level 3 or whichever currently) is from a solid resolve never to crumble and die. while I still think the description of a fully integrated 6 gives me too much credit, this on the other hand is something that was not easy and I believe I do deserve credit for.
 

Elfboy

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I may change my mind later, but for not I'm sticking with 8w9. however, this conversation has led me to believe that I'm healthier than I thought perhaps at level 2 or 3 as opposed to 4 or 5
 
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typing yourself on your level of integration seems a little loopy to me personally. No offense but my guess is you are at a more average level vs healthy. If you don't relate to six motivations, you probably are not a six.
 

Speed Gavroche

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Once again: enneagram is not about your motivations.

As for Elfboy, he strikes me as a sort of INFP, 5w4 maybe.
 

Savage Idealist

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I may change my mind later, but for not I'm sticking with 8w9. however, this conversation has led me to believe that I'm healthier than I thought perhaps at level 2 or 3 as opposed to 4 or 5

If you still have any other questions or concerns due, then please feel free to PM me :yes:

In contrast to what SavageIdealist was advising above, core motivations are not that easy to discern. We learn our types from the descriptions, and then discover our motivations from reading, we don't determine our core motivations some other way and then determine our type from something in a book that matches it.

No, core motivations are really easy to discern, it's simply about what you want in life, based of off what you fear, nothing more and nothing less. Reading descriptions only muddles the process because of the method in which descriptions are written; most descriptions are written without anything in the way of tested or external information. Most people who write the descriptions base them off simple axioms and rational deduce what the type is suppose to be, not what it is. Because of this type descriptions read more like stereotyping horoscopes; this is why INFP descriptions make them look like fluffy bunnies, it makes INTP's look like socially inept nerds, etc. If typings of every sort are to ever be taken seriously in the real world, then they need to be tested much like a science before actual descriptions are written. For example, several groups of people are split up based upon a certain personality trait (fear/motivation, function usage), then observation is done in order to draw any general conclusions concerning similarities within their behavior. Once that information is carefully collected, only then can general descriptions be written. That's what needs to be done to the enneagram (and other types categories), otherwise relying on the descriptions alon is nonsense.

Once again: enneagram is not about your motivations.

As for Elfboy, he strikes me as a sort of INFP, 5w4 maybe.

Then what is the enneagram about?

Also, what makes you think that Elfboy, a guy who fearlessly argues against all his classmates, demonstrates excellent Te usage, and doesn't tak shit from others, is somehow one of the most introverted types (INFP 5w4) in existence?
 

Elfboy

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Once again: enneagram is not about your motivations.

As for Elfboy, he strikes me as a sort of INFP, 5w4 maybe.

I don't necessarily agree but that would actually make a lot of sense. my childhood was almost archtypical of an INFP and 5 integrates to 8.
 

Mal12345

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No, core motivations are really easy to discern, it's simply about what you want in life, based of off what you fear, nothing more and nothing less.

Core motivations are desires. They are more or less based off fears depending upon one's level of development. Fear drives us to pursue these desires in more destructive ways, but fear is not necessarily present. When fear (anxiety, really) is entirely absent, then we are spiritually and psychologically free to move on to our type's point of integration in the pursuit of desires.

Reading descriptions only muddles the process because of the method in which descriptions are written; most descriptions are written without anything in the way of tested or external information. Most people who write the descriptions base them off simple axioms and rational deduce what the type is suppose to be, not what it is.

However, since you're partly addressing me, I have been quoting Riso who reportedly spent much time riding buses and taking copious notes of the people seated around him. This statement also applies to much of what you wrote just below this.

Because of this type descriptions read more like stereotyping horoscopes; this is why INFP descriptions make them look like fluffy bunnies, it makes INTP's look like socially inept nerds, etc. If typings of every sort are to ever be taken seriously in the real world, then they need to be tested much like a science before actual descriptions are written. For example, several groups of people are split up based upon a certain personality trait (fear/motivation, function usage), then observation is done in order to draw any general conclusions concerning similarities within their behavior. Once that information is carefully collected, only then can general descriptions be written. That's what needs to be done to the enneagram (and other types categories), otherwise relying on the descriptions alon is nonsense.

I certainly agree with the idea of core or key motivations of types, although it seems too rigid and archetypal to be applied in reality. All other motives reduce to a single one. I'm just saying that one cannot know their own key motivation without reading an Enneagram book and believing what is written there. A typical criticism of this idea would ask why only one key motivation and not two or a dozen. Why all the psychological reductionism, hasn't psychology grown beyond Freud?

Then what is the enneagram about?

Also, what makes you think that Elfboy, a guy who fearlessly argues against all his classmates, demonstrates excellent Te usage, and doesn't tak shit from others, is somehow one of the most introverted types (INFP 5w4) in existence?

Elfboy described that as one phase out of many. If you look back at his informative bio, there were various periods which he represented by some key behaviors. He vaguely mentioned some motivations but none of them match up with key motivations. Anger was one such motivation. Being a hero to others was another motivation.

There were five distinctly spelled-out phases to his childhood into adulthood. 1. The defender/protector/hero phase; 2. being picked on by bullies and retreating into a shell/confusion/caution phase; 3. an anger phase (although he was not aware of being angry), learning to defend himself primarily verbally, as you pointed out; 4. another quiet phase, not so much socially withdrawn this time but more of a self-confident charmer; 5. college, and drawing on his 3-ish ability to appear as one ennea-type while being another.

If I were forced to abandon the idea that he is a 6w5 I would have to go with 3, but with the wing type unknown. 6w5 still fits him better than any other type, to my mind. But not the 8 who willfully seeks out conflict, whereas he seemingly only attracted it at phase 3 as a kind of magnet for trouble.

I often use the "unknown-wing" to eliminate the wing's core type as a possibility.

That being said, I haven't denied that much of what Elfboy writes on himself comes across like the 8, although, among other things, he was rather too quiet and sensitive a child for that. Self-describing as a charming adult comes across as a higher-level 6, far far more than 8 or 3. Three's become charming as a manipulative ploy. Sixes simply want to make a good impression for various, more healthy reasons, mostly I think simply because they ENJOY being around other people.
 

Mal12345

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Based on my last comment, I should modify something I said last night. Where Elfboy thinks of himself as "charming," in an integration to 2, I claimed that it had more to do with disintegrating to 3. Indeed, "charming" could better describe the 6 at level 2, especially where he states that his level of integration is healthier than he had thought before starting this thread.
 

Mal12345

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typing yourself on your level of integration seems a little loopy to me personally. No offense but my guess is you are at a more average level vs healthy. If you don't relate to six motivations, you probably are not a six.

Agreed on the first point. It is too easy to confuse one's self-typing based on a dynamic move from one point to another. Those somewhere in the 3-6-9 triangle are charming depending on where they are on the levels.
 

Elfboy

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Based on my last comment, I should modify something I said last night. Where Elfboy thinks of himself as "charming," in an integration to 2, I claimed that it had more to do with disintegrating to 3. Indeed, "charming" could better describe the 6 at level 2, especially where he states that his level of integration is healthier than he had thought before starting this thread.

my charming side is definitely not my disintegrated side. I enjoy beling polite, friendly and charming sometimes, but it's not reputation or appearence motivated.
 
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