[Type 9] Type 9 is liberating

[wolfy]

That is like the old saying when you are twenty you care what others think. When you turn forty you don't care any more and when you turn sixty you realise they weren't thinking about you anyway.

 

[Salomé]

I do think the 9s get what I'm saying, though I'll admit the OP wasn't tightly constructed. The rest seem to think its a call to being a serial killer.

I'm overly sensitive to how things are interpreted

What I mean is I'm no longer such a slave to Type 9 behavior. As in, I don't have do it when it's unhealthy. ... For me, this means I don't have to constantly be afraid of conflict with others. Sometimes it's good.

I really think you are misunderstanding just to promote your own comfort. Rather than challenge yourself, you fall back on platitudes and you look for affirmation and validation - the whole purpose of this thread, in fact. You are still looking for the easy and quiet life and dismissing reality - this is the biggest pitfall for 9s (not conflict avoidance, that's just a symptom).

Getting into conflict with others (by disregarding their feelings and dismissing them as people with "issues" whenever you hurt them and you don't think they are entitled to feel hurt) is not progress for a 9. It's not progress for anyone. It's not a path to becoming "normal" or healthy or fully actualized. You are still a slave to your type, but now you have rationalized your behaviour to make yourself even more comfortable. To purge yourself of even the mild discomfort of a bad conscience. Thus inhibiting any internal checks on behaviour that is destructive or harmful to others. "It's not my problem!". "It's not my fault!" "I didn't do anything!" This is, in fact, what happens when 9s drop to a lower (unhealthy) level of development.

Level 6: The Resigned Fatalist
If doing nothing does not succeed and they must face their problems of conflicts with others, average Nines at this stage attempt to minimize their importance. They underestimate the seriousness of the consequences of their passivity and underestimate how difficult it will be for someone else to correct the problems they refuse to deal with. In fact, they underestimate the necessity of doing much of anything at all.
By this stage, it is likely that average Nines have a number of genuine problems in their lives but they take pride in their ability to endure whatever happens: they know that they can get through problems by tuning them out. Thus, rather than exert themselves, they become fatalistic, feeling that nothing can be done to change things and that, in any event, whatever the problem is, it is not much a problem after all ("Well it doesn't really matter anyway") Their healthy receptivity has deteriorated into resignation, a giving up rather than a mature letting go. This is not optimism but selfishness ("I don't want to hear it - I just don't want to be upset").
Apathy has replace compliance. At this Level, Nines are not even interested in going along with others' wishes. They develop a profound indifference about themselves, their lives, and the people and events around them.
Others are frustrated with Nines because they are so disengaged that it is almost impossible to connect with them in any meaningful or emotionally satisfying way. Ironically, Nines who feared losing their sense of connection and harmony with others have withdrawn their attention from them. Moreover, when others attempt to make helpful suggestions or try to get some kind of a response from them, average Nines can be extremely stubborn and angry, not seeing what all the fuss is about.

Healthy 9s are graciously accepting (of themselves and others) and non-judgmental. They can have disagreements of opinion without anxiety because they do not experience it as a rejection of their core self. They don't need to dishonour others or kill their empathy in order to achieve this balance. Rather, they embrace it, and the suffering that inevitably comes with it. Thereby learning how to truly connect with others.


At least, consider the possibility, even if it is disagreeable to you.

 

[Salomé]

Yeah, Evan gave the impression of being "above". Even when Jack Flak antagonized him, he kept his cool, and found the right words to express himself without engaging aggressively. I liked the character.

Evan was supercilious, yes. He admitted that he passive-aggressively taunted (a drunk and depressed) Jack into self-destructive behaviour. He gave him some rope, when that was the last thing he needed.
I don't see much to admire about that.

 

[MacGuffin]

this reads similar to a hidden rule or long standing law of human nature. law being: when someone turns 40 they no longer have to sweat the small stuff and can let themselves tell it and think it like it is. kinda like breaking a burden of social inhibition. walking with truth. not so much for the better of anyone else but to be honest with ones self. it can even grow humor, imo. for some reason others may laugh at an idea. when that happens, it's usually no biggy because others may ponder it and find the reality of the idea is kinda funny to an extent. either way, people instinctively know that person, 40 or older, earned it and may even cut the cheese in public and pretend nothing happened just to see what happens. or, it could be type 9ers around 40 or older because the infrequency of seeing much of that burden lift.

are you around 40?

I'm getting closer and closer.

That is like the old saying when you are twenty you care what others think. When you turn forty you don't care any more and when you turn sixty you realise they weren't thinking about you anyway.

Though I hope I don't end up like my ESTJ grandmother. Wow, she will let fly sometimes.

I really think you are misunderstanding just to promote your own comfort. Rather than challenge yourself, you fall back on platitudes and you look for affirmation and validation - the whole purpose of this thread, in fact. You are still looking for the easy and quiet life and dismissing reality - this is the biggest pitfall for 9s (not conflict avoidance, that's just a symptom).

Getting into conflict with others (by disregarding their feelings and dismissing them as people with "issues" whenever you hurt them and you don't think they are entitled to feel hurt) is not progress for a 9. It's not progress for anyone. It's not a path to becoming "normal" or healthy or fully actualized. You are still a slave to your type, but now you have rationalized your behaviour to make yourself even more comfortable. To purge yourself of even the mild discomfort of a bad conscience. Thus inhibiting any internal checks on behaviour that is destructive or harmful to others. "It's not my problem!". "It's not my fault!" "I didn't do anything!" This is, in fact, what happens when 9s drop to a lower (unhealthy) level of development.

Healthy 9s are graciously accepting (of themselves and others) and non-judgmental. They can have disagreements of opinion without anxiety because they do not experience it as a rejection of their core self. They don't need to dishonour others or kill their empathy in order to achieve this balance. Rather, they embrace it, and the suffering that inevitably comes with it. Thereby learning how to truly connect with others.


At least, consider the possibility, even if it is disagreeable to you.

I'll think about it, but it really is other people's problems (you down with OPP?) sometimes. Esp. when the next day comes and they act like nothing happened while I'm walking on eggshells.

Evan was supercilious, yes. He admitted that he passive-aggressively taunted (a drunk and depressed) Jack into self-destructive behaviour. He gave him some rope, when that was the last thing he needed.
I don't see much to admire about that.

In vino veritas.

 

[Salomé]

(you down with OPP?)

?

 

[MacGuffin]

?

[YOUTUBE="6xGuGSDsDrM"]Has nothing to actually do with this thread[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Salomé]

 

[MacGuffin]

American culture is the height of civilization.

 

[wolfy]

That sweet point can be elusive.

It is. I am just going to post some random thoughts as they come to me...

I am not so knowledgeable on the enneagram but find it interesting. Lately I can see room for learning something about myself through it. I was watching this excellent video on the nine type, it is here. I've seen a few videos that are very poor in how they represent nine. It seems to me that nine growth is more about a kind of undulating need to move forward or take a step back. There seems to be a kind of zen like state to the ultimate nine, in the descriptions at least. It seems an almost impossible to reach that state. Responsive to the environment yet always balanced. I think it has something to do with locus of control. That is where there is a gap in your original statement, you didn't allow for feedback and adjustment. I understand what you meant though, you can't control peoples reactions. The issue is that if you approach the situation without the loop back to yourself taking control I think you end up defining yourself by your environment again. You define yourself by conflict. Which is the same as defining yourself in harmony. You are still merging with the environment and taking your agenda from it. It isn't entirely true to say you do but there is definitely that danger. Though you could just be, in the same way martial artists are in kung fu classics. “Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick.”

“Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.”

I am interested in learning more about nine. I don't know, but there it is.

 

[Salomé]

I'll think about it, but it really is other people's problems (you down with OPP?) sometimes. Esp. when the next day comes and they act like nothing happened while I'm walking on eggshells.

How is that other people's problems? Sounds like you are the one with the problem in that scenario.

I feel like I've hit the same brick wall as in the argument about truthfulness. There, you wouldn't accept that your own agenda will come up with rationalizations for lying, here, you won't accept that your own agenda will come up with rationalizations for destructive/hurtful behaviour.

 

[MacGuffin]

It is. I am just going to post some random thoughts as they come to me...

I am not so knowledgeable on the enneagram but find it interesting. Lately I can see room for learning something about myself through it. I was watching this excellent video on the nine type, it is here. I've seen a few videos that are very poor in how they represent nine. It seems to me that nine growth is more about a kind of undulating need to move forward or take a step back. There seems to be a kind of zen like state to the ultimate nine, in the descriptions at least. It seems an almost impossible to reach that state. Responsive to the environment yet always balanced. I think it has something to do with locus of control. That is where there is a gap in your original statement, you didn't allow for feedback and adjustment. I understand what you meant though, you can't control peoples reactions. The issue is that if you approach the situation without the loop back to yourself taking control I think you end up defining yourself by your environment again. You define yourself by conflict. Which is the same as defining yourself in harmony. You are still merging with the environment and taking your agenda from it. It isn't entirely true to say you do but there is definitely that danger. Though you could just be, in the same way martial artists are in kung fu classics. “Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick.”

“Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.”

I am interested in learning more about nine. I don't know, but there it is.

I'm glad you understood me. I probably should've had you write the OP! I didn't mean to limit feedback or adjustment.

Thanks for the video. I find the descriptions of the Type 9 out there to be pretty poor.

How is that other people's problems? Sounds like you are the one with the problem in that scenario.

Yes.

I feel like I've hit the same brick wall as in the argument about truthfulness. There, you wouldn't accept that your own agenda will come up with rationalizations for lying, here, you won't accept that your own agenda will come up with rationalizations for destructive/hurtful behaviour.

Everyone lies. Everyone rationalizes. The problem with the 9 is that they often limit themselves by rationalizing they are the source of the disturbance. Keeping the "peace" by shutting down. Avoiding conflict when it is better to engage in it. That sometimes, and here is the qualifier yet again, SOMETIMES the reaction of the other person is their own issue, it's not what the 9 did. SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES

If a 9 always believes themselves to be at fault, they'll be paralyzed with inaction. Recognizing they don't have to settle the other person, it's not always the 9's responsibility to smooth things out and not take a firm stand in the face of other's reactions. The other person can take ownership of themselves.

 

[Salomé]

Everyone lies. Everyone rationalizes. The problem with the 9 is that they often limit themselves by rationalizing they are the source of the disturbance. Keeping the "peace" by shutting down. Avoiding conflict when it is better to engage in it. That sometimes, and here is the qualifier yet again, SOMETIMES the reaction of the other person is their own issue, it's not what the 9 did. SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES
SOMETIMES

If a 9 always believes themselves to be at fault, they'll be paralyzed with inaction. Recognizing they don't have to settle the other person, it's not always the 9's responsibility to smooth things out and not take a firm stand in the face of other's reactions. The other person can take ownership of themselves.

What are you trying to say? That [sometimes] it's not your fault?


That's not my point. Of course everyone must own their own reactions. In fact, no one can hurt you unless you first give them the power to do so. My point is that you don't have to go looking for blame and fault in the other person in order to numb your own pain. You just have to accept and deal with the discomfort of a not always completely harmonious universe.

 

[MacGuffin]

What are you trying to say? That sometimes it's not your fault?


That's not my point. Of course everyone must own their own reactions. In fact, no one can hurt you unless you first give them the power to do so. My point is that you don't have to go looking for blame and fault in the other person in order to numb your own pain. You just have to accept and deal with the discomfort of a not always completely harmonious universe.

Who said anything about numbing pain? It will still disturb the 9, but they have to go ahead and speak up/act out anyway. This thread is about the 9 giving up the unhealthy burden of believing they are responsible for everyone's well-being. In other words: your last sentence.

 

[Salomé]

Who said anything about numbing pain?

Not you. That's the problem.

It will still disturb the 9, but they have to go ahead and speak up/act out anyway. This thread is about the 9 giving up the unhealthy burden of believing they are responsible for everyone's well-being. In other words: your last sentence.

How you get there is just as important as getting there.

Your approach entails writing people off - fault-finding. My approach doesn't require that anyone be at fault. It is about being open and accepting of difference. Don't you see the difference? Really?

 

[MacGuffin]

Not you. That's the problem.
How you get there is just as important as getting there.

Your approach entails writing people off - fault-finding. My approach doesn't require that anyone be at fault. It is about being open and accepting of difference. Don't you see the difference? Really?

No fault = no problem. If there's a problem, something is wrong.

 

[Salomé]

No fault = no problem. If there's a problem, something is wrong.

THAT is the mental block you have to overcome.

 

[Lady_X]

right...i hear ya morgan...somethings just are...and fault is beside the point.

 

[MacGuffin]

THAT is the mental block you have to overcome.

Never gonna solve problems that way.

 

[Salomé]

right...i hear ya morgan...somethings just are...and fault is beside the point.

You always get it.

 

[Salomé]

Never gonna solve problems that way.

I thought you'd liberated yourself from that burden already?