[Type 9] Type 9 is liberating

[Lady_X]

Are we doing Zen now?

you know...just being there for someone while it not being about you at all....taking yourself out of the equation...you're not at fault...not to blame...it has nothing to do with you.

 

[Salomé]

I disagree, sometimes people need judging. Accepting and validating feelings all the time with everyone is an impossible task.

Is it an easier task to judge or just to accept what is?


Tolle talks about how suffering leads to greater consciousness (and thence to the end of suffering, i.e. true liberation/enlightenment). If you don't first allow yourself to experience that suffering (i.e. by avoiding reality, self-medicating, rationalizing, disassociating) you can never progress towards self-awareness. You are trapped with your fears and alienated from yourself and others.

Blaming/judging others is not a way out of suffering. Because when we attribute blame, we feel resentment and anger, which makes us suffer and makes the person we resent suffer too. It cuts us off from them. Lose-lose. The solution is not to become less sensitive to others, but more sensitive to ourselves.

 

[MacGuffin]

Is it an easier task to judge or just to accept what is?


Tolle talks about how suffering leads to greater consciousness (and thence to the end of suffering, i.e. true liberation/enlightenment). If you don't first allow yourself to experience that suffering (i.e. by avoiding reality, self-medicating, rationalizing, disassociating) you can never progress towards self-awareness. You are trapped with your fears and alienated from yourself and others.

Blaming/judging others is not a way out of suffering. Because when we attribute blame, we feel resentment and anger, which makes us suffer and makes the person we resent suffer too. It cuts us off from them. Lose-lose. The solution is not to become less sensitive to others, but more sensitive to ourselves.

I agree with most of that, but dismissing others doesn't always lead to resentment and anger. You can simply stop thinking about them.

 

[Salomé]

You can simply stop thinking about them.

...and we're back to avoiding reality.

 

[Bushranger]

I don't generally follow enneagram too closely, but I have typed as 9w1 and the peacemaker attributes rang true for me.

I think it takes a very unhealthy 9 to actively inflict suffering, though they can be good at it since they often know where the buttons lie.

The 9 generally seeks to maintain harmony. It is not always possible. Too many people enjoy sowing discord, and buttons are hard to unpush.

Realising that you are more sensitive to conflict than most people can be liberating, as it allows you to worry less about being the source of disharmony and lower the level of self-censorship.

I have people close to me that always choose to escalate in the face of conflict, they make easy marks for trolls and bullies.

Avoidance is not inherently a bad thing. You don't have to walk through or over the mountain, walking around is perfectly acceptable. What is not acceptable is using the mountain as an excuse to avoid the trip.

 

[MacGuffin]

I don't generally follow enneagram too closely, but I have typed as 9w1 and the peacemaker attributes rang true for me.

I think it takes a very unhealthy 9 to actively inflict suffering, though they can be good at it since they often know where the buttons lie.

The 9 generally seeks to maintain harmony. It is not always possible. Too many people enjoy sowing discord, and buttons are hard to unpush.

Realising that you are more sensitive to conflict than most people can be liberating, as it allows you to worry less about being the source of disharmony and lower the level of self-censorship.

I have people close to me that always choose to escalate in the face of conflict, they make easy marks for trolls and bullies.

Avoidance is not inherently a bad thing. You don't have to walk through or over the mountain, walking around is perfectly acceptable. What is not acceptable is using the mountain as an excuse to avoid the trip.

Well said, esp. the bolded.

 

[redacted]

Hi all, see a lot has been going on since I've last been around!

Anyway, I really have no idea if I'm a type 5 or type 9. I think I'm probably 9.

Not sure if the Jack Flac example is evidence in favor, though.



Edit: also, regarding this:

Evan was supercilious, yes. He admitted that he passive-aggressively taunted (a drunk and depressed) Jack into self-destructive behaviour. He gave him some rope, when that was the last thing he needed.
I don't see much to admire about that.

I definitely acted in a oppositional manner to Jack in that final interaction. But do remember that he was taunting me for my girlfriend and first love dying in the middle of our relationship. I'm not saying I acted maturely, but I doubt many people would.

 

[MacGuffin]

I definitely acted in a oppositional manner to Jack in that final interaction. But do remember that he was taunting me for my girlfriend and first love dying in the middle of our relationship. I'm not saying I acted maturely, but I doubt many people would.

You were fine.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

On many of the profiles I read it said that one of the main differences between fives and nines is that fives are drawn to darker and more disturbing systems of thought (Indeed, I've often whimsically thought how the world would be infinitely better and more interesting place were the mythologies cultivated by H.P. Lovecraft true) than nines are, who prefer more "harmonious" systems and theories.

Indeed, now that I think about it, I am always drawn to the dark, and the tragic, and the horrific, dissonance over harmony, dark over light, and sad over happy. So, in that way, I am more a five than a nine.

I read a lot of horror/mystery novels (including a Lovecraft phase in college) and prefer a tragedy to a happy ending, but I don't think that makes me a 5.

I've been avoiding admitting I'm probably a type 9 for a while now (ha). When I first took the enneagram I tested 9. I redid it to correct the obvious mistake and got an equal split on 5 and 4. The descriptions I've seen of 9s are universally negative, which is probably why people often seem to have difficulty accepting that it's their type. This thread makes me think I almost certainly am one whether I like it or not. And I likewise am fascinated by horror, dissonance, darkness and tragedy. So either I'm not a 9 or that's no way to disqualify a 9 result. Sorry.

 

[MacGuffin]

I've been avoiding admitting I'm probably a type 9 for a while now (ha). When I first took the enneagram I tested 9. I redid it to correct the obvious mistake and got an equal split on 5 and 4. The descriptions I've seen of 9s are universally negative, which is probably why people often seem to have difficulty accepting that it's their type. This thread makes me think I almost certainly am one whether I like it or not. And I likewise am fascinated by horror, dissonance, darkness and tragedy. So either I'm not a 9 or that's no way to disqualify a 9 result. Sorry.

The type descriptions of the 9 are the worst. You're either a passive lump or an emotional fluffer.

I wasn't suggesting that that's the only reason why I am a five, but as I was reading through profiles of the two types in order to find which one I related to more, that comparison was suggested as a quick tiebreaker. It had the effect of silencing my cognitive dissonance and self-doubt for a while, and so I was satisfied.

The other thing I read is 5s rarely think they are 9s, but 9s often mistake themselves for 5s.

 

[VagrantFarce]

[youtube=C7P7NTIJHFk]9[/youtube]

[youtube=OKHAxnM3wuM]5[/youtube]

Once the differences click for you, you'll wonder how you ever confused the two in the first place.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Once the differences click for you, you'll wonder how you ever confused the two in the first place.

I don't identify with the characterization that 9s lose their sense of self when around other people, but maybe I'm just not around other people enough. Or maybe I'm still in denial. But it seems to be at odds with being an Fi dom. And I dislike intensely having my places of solitude intruded upon, as most introverts probably do. So if I were going by those vids I would call myself a 5. Which I'm 90% sure I'm not.

Damn, I guess I'm going to have to revisit enneagram.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Let's use an example:

Say you have a religious mother but you're an atheist. She expects you to attend church. If you tell you her you don't and that you don't believe in God, you will trigger a crying guilt trip that will last for hours, and the subject will come up again and again. Why not simply avoid the subject then? Or - if you don't avoid it, what is the point of not avoiding it? You'll hurt your mother, why hurt her?

MacG,

So we're both 9s! How cool. We have a lot in common with the way we interact with people, I think. We play similar roles in their lives even though we have slightly different methods.

So you're a w1 and I'm supposedly a w5 or something, I think. I don't remember. But I'll tell you how I responded to this post. I would not avoid that kind of situation because for me, making peace sometimes requires that people confront their hangups. If a person is narrow minded and hung up on someone else's private, supposedly personal beliefs, they're misguided. They're not seeing the big picture, not giving people freedom, not living in harmony with others, and in my opinion, not really in harmony with themselves because they're so busy judging and micromanaging the world and their family like property. I would challenge that person in order to shake them up, especially if I thought they were capable of change. Harmony is the same goal, but I'm usually willing to inflict pain if the end-result is positive. It's like administering a shot of antibiotics.

I'm actually really curious about how you came to let go of your need to make sure people were okay. I read through it and didn't see the logical connection between knowing it was your tendency and letting go of that. I guess you just became aware that it was a personal thing you were doing? Can you explain the first post a little more?

 

[hilo]

Let's use an example:

Say you have a religious mother but you're an atheist. She expects you to attend church. If you tell you her you don't and that you don't believe in God, you will trigger a crying guilt trip that will last for hours, and the subject will come up again and again. Why not simply avoid the subject then? Or - if you don't avoid it, what is the point of not avoiding it? You'll hurt your mother, why hurt her?

Hi Mac. Interesting thread!

From a 9w? INTP -

Religious feeling or lack thereof was a big challenge in my life, especially after I became very disillusioned with christianity around the age of 11 or 12 after a lot of independent reading (Sagan's Demon-haunted world made a particular impression). But I did not express this change of beliefs to anyone in my life - precisely because I could not tolerate the conflict it would generate. It was easy enough to go to church and tune out. My parents were not the type to ever ask what I thought, so I was safe as long as I never brought it up. I had a real internal crisis when I was 16 (when Catholics got confirmed in my diocese) because I would be publicly claiming a faith I did not hold. I kept telling myself I would say something, would stand up for what I felt, but ultimately I did not... I passively went along with the ritual and indoctrination. It was painful to me, but I imagined, less painful than upsetting a family I loved.

Now as an older (but still young) adult I harbor a regret that I did not own my feelings, and that I was weak in that way. And I think my childish estimation of the pain and conflict that I avoided was perhaps over-estimated.

The funny thing is, I didn't even learn my lesson. I dated a guy for years who was very religious (he was an INTJ). I saw how happy it made him that I went to church once (to see what his church was like)... and I kept going. For years. Listening to the sermons, giving money because they always pass the damn basket around every time, even trying to convince myself I felt something or believed something...

Later, when that relationship ended I was finally honest enough to admit that I hated going to church and got nothing out of it - and it honestly may have contributed to the failure of the relationship which at that point I felt was constricting.

So I guess in answer to the above, I don't think avoidance was a good thing. These are core beliefs, they are who you are, and by not being authentic you do a disservice to those that know you - real relationships should be built on a real version of you, not the one you have shaped to fit - it's almost condescending to do that. I hope I have learned, but I know I have to really focus on boundaries and expression of my own desires in the future (a key problem being that Fi is my weakest function, which makes me hesitant to insist on anything which is felt).

 

[Salomé]

So I guess in answer to the above, I don't think avoidance was a good thing. These are core beliefs, they are who you are, and by not being authentic you do a disservice to those that know you - real relationships should be built on a real version of you, not the one you have shaped to fit - it's almost condescending to do that.

But isn't the problem with 9s that they do not know what their core beliefs are half the time? They just sort of take on the identity, goals, aspirations, beliefs, of an SO/parent/x in the "merging" process. Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
Am I misreading it?
This is one of the things I find most mystifying. I can understand wanting things to be harmonious. I cannot understand wanting things to be undifferentiated. That sounds like a kind of death. And it's funny because the other 2 "withdrawn" E types (4s and 5s) are so individualistic and iconoclastic...

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
Am I misreading it?

As an unconfirmed type 9 this resonates with me, though it's not a matter of not believing in having a single point of view of my own so much as not knowing by which criterion to eliminate so many seemingly valid points of view. Picking one seems in many cases to be an absurdly arbitrary act, and it wouldn't surprise me if many 9s abdicate such a choice to an admired/trusted person in their life. I doubt that's something 9s would do with every choice they encounter -- just those that have them completely stumped, or those that they're sufficiently indifferent to.

But I don't relate with this 'merging' process. I've always been suspicious of consensus views, particularly on moral issues. I don't take big heroic stands against them so much as steadfastly refuse to assent until I've had time to think things through and make up my own mind one way or the other. This often involves playing devil's advocate as a stalling device. Or simple abstention.

 

[Salomé]

As an unconfirmed type 9 this resonates with me

Why are you unconfirmed? Who needs to confirm it for you?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Why are you unconfirmed? Who needs to confirm it for you?

Lemme go find someone I trust/admire.

 

[hilo]

But isn't the problem with 9s that they do not know what their core beliefs are half the time? They just sort of take on the identity, goals, aspirations, beliefs, of an SO/parent/x in the "merging" process. Or that they see things from so many angles, so many shades of grey, that they don't really believe in having a single point of view of their own?
Am I misreading it?
This is one of the things I find most mystifying. I can understand wanting things to be harmonious. I cannot understand wanting things to be undifferentiated. That sounds like a kind of death. And it's funny because the other 2 "withdrawn" E types (4s and 5s) are so individualistic and iconoclastic...

Perhaps we have fewer "certainties" than other types, but this is somewhat dependent on MBTI type and (perhaps most importantly) age/maturity.

As I get older, I realize that I mostly come to have solid core beliefs/feelings through experiences and not through reasoning (which can always be overturned by superior evidence, and is therefore tentative) or Fi-dom style gut feelings (because these are, indeed, largely inacessible to me). Many of these experiences revolve around "trying on" the beliefs/aspirations of another and carrying it to the breaking point. (Unconsciously, of course). This is a rather slow, torturous way of gaining certainty/identity/beliefs. It seems until this process plays out I am indeed vulnerable to taking on too much of a valued "other".

However, I do know know why it would have to be taken to the extreme breaking point. I could be wrong, but I think I have gained some insight from my last few relationships to identify that "constricting feeling" (as the 9 guy in the video above said, so aptly). So a 9 could become more sensitive to this as a way to re-assert boundaries when they are inevitably misplaced. Easier said than done, of course. I wish I had some older 9s to ask about this.

And I agree about the undifferentiated death. To imagine myself in this situation I recoil strongly - I have a need for independence which is seemingly at war with the need to merge/be understood/have meaning.

 

[VagrantFarce]

I don't identify with the characterization that 9s lose their sense of self when around other people

Guess you're not a 9 then

[edit] don't think of it as losing your sense of self, think of it more as your sense of self dispersing into others