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  1. #21
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Nevertheless, using my very limited understanding of e5s, I no longer see myself as 'strong' enough to be in an intimate relationship with one. Obviously I am not going to allow the Enneagram to dictate who I do and do not formulate relationships with. But it does seem to me that, when conflict arrises...and it always does (said to my irl e5) that the e5s instinctual response (?) to withdraw without explanation, etc. is hard on my desire to know that things are 'okay' even in the midst of challenges. I see this push - pull happening. Me sending the message that it is okay to 'move'...that I somehow 'need' you to 'do something'...and the e5 becoming just that more 'frozen'.
    strong enough to withstand the push-pull, and patient enough to baby us when we're being fussy? like anything, it takes a lot of practice for us to get better. and like anything, if it doesn't get better eventually, at a certain point, it's time to move forward and look for something else. e5 does have very strong challenges with intimacy--especially regarding the wall we put up, feeling overwhelmed by the will of another (ie hypersensitive to their demands), and responding in a general stingy way at times.

    it is difficult to stay open and engaged and allow our vulnerabilities to show through, especially to let go of the desire to completely control our own self-image. but those e5s who have at least got a glimpse of the light know how much happier they are when they strive for openness and benevolence. and fairness, equality, and generosity, which make up a large part of how to get there.

    I smiled, though, when you mentioned a merging-of-the-souls…because of all the funny ‎‎‘harlequin romance images’ it produced in my mind. In truth, I am not quite sure what it ‎means or what a ‘soul merging’ would look like so I don’t know if I am, or would be, fearful ‎of such a bond or not. But I definitely do not want to become one with another person ‎because I want to be able to enjoy that person as a separate individual (if that makes ‎sense).
    to me this is an sx quality, and as such is relevant for sx folk across all types. complete connection. yet i am sure that this connection is interpreted differently. for e5 it might be at the level of the will.

    I have more flaws then I could address in a lifetime BUT one trait that I am honestly proud ‎of is an ability to accept people and adapt to differing ways (within limits of course as I ‎won’t tolerate abuse, criminal activity, that sort of thing). When reading through this ‎thread again I guess it became definite in my mind that being able to accept others is a ‎function of having a sense of separateness. Someone’s good or bad behavior does not ‎reflect upon me. Aside from my child, I never experience an overwhelming sense that I am ‎responsible for someone else’s state of mind or being unless I engaged them directly. And, perhaps due to all of this, I can comfortably say ‘no’.‎
    this makes me think of the book the prophet by kahlil gibran when he talks about being like two pillars. and that the foundation must stand apart in order to be strong. if i had to give myself a rating 1-10 regarding how successfully i've learned this lesson, i'd give myself a 3. my s.o. takes this as a fundamental assumption (she has Fi), whereas for me being on the same page is really important (read: overblown in its importance). the desire for complete connection creates unnecessary pressures. i've been reading psychological theories and one of the theorists (an intp?) created rational emotive behaviorial therapy. he lists 12 stupid cognitive errors people make. one was wanting someone else to love you for every good and every bad thing you do. rather than building your own self-respect. this idea applies here. and shamefacedly i still make this mistake way too often.

    You see, I can understand these words…but cannot wrap my brain around what this ‎experience would feel like. I believe state may have touched on this earlier – the difference ‎between Fi & Fe maybe. Again, not knowing enough about it I should hardly speak of it at ‎all. But for me, my ‘will’ is always readily available to me. In this way it is probably ‘safer’ ‎for me interact with people and/or adapt to situations because I know I can access that ‘will’ ‎immediately if I need to and thus am less likely to unwittingly be pulled in a direction I do ‎not want to go. I know exactly what I feel from moment to moment and will act ‎accordingly. This often means feeling okay to change my mind when new feelings or ‎information presents itself. It also, on occasion, means changing my mind back. I can ‎easily let go of an attachment to consistency if I make a determination that being ‎inconsistent at that point in time will keep me within ‘what feels right’.‎

    With all of that said though – please know that I am in no way saying ‘my way is better’ as I ‎do not even remotely believe that to be the case. When I think of Western society – I think ‎that while asserting one’s will is considered desirable…doing so based on feelings as ‎opposed to rational thought would definitely be frowned upon. Whatever.‎
    there are distinct advantages to both. my weakness is knowing what feels right/true for me. and how to assert my own will over or against others, to rationally decide what is best and allowing myself to fluidly assert what i want as important regardless of whether i have more foundation than someone else in my own desires. p types learn self-responsibility in a totally different way than j types. improving the dialogue between them regarding self-responsibility is really important for helping improve self-actualization for everyone.

    All and all, I get the sense that you know far better than me what a soul-merging would ‎actually be like. Again, I am unable to imagine how an e5 experiences boundaries and the ‎sense of being an individual being. I am unable to understand the ‘need’ to make finalized ‎decisions…as all my mind can see is how everything is always in motion…always changing. ‎I do see however, how these two qualities together could certainly cause an individual to ‎‎‘freeze’ and ‘stutter’. And I can see how someone like me could end-up being an e5s ‘worst ‎nightmare’.
    it calls for consideration of the other and reasonable demonstrations of self-sacrifice going in both directions. finding ways to show that you privilege this connection, and being on the same page as far as knowing how and why each party values it the way they do. so much of relationships is negotiating what it means to both sides, and why that creates balanced trust. if you don't have desire to help each other meet your own individual needs, then it's not really a long-term strategy in the first place.

    That makes me sad though because the people commenting on this thread ‎‎(state, z buck, etc. & you casadeco) all have ‘voices’ that really resonate with me…and have ‎for some time now. Long before any of you knew that crazy starryknights even existed. It ‎feels like a real bummer to think that I would probably overwhelm you irl…like I can only ‎assume I do to my irl e5. What a shame!!

    This calls for the sad banana
    no reason to be sad. it just requires more work than it seems like initially to make this pairing work. enfp-infj obviously boasts a mutual inspiration that is obvious and extremely beneficial and highly valued. but there's totally different rationales working underneath the surface that require major commitment to work through/learn from both sides of the equation. it takes much consideration to move beyond your feelings and allow those to be incorporated into a greater awareness of the needs of another. we also seem to often take everything personally according to our own worst fears rather than the truth of the other.

    the other hurdle is, again, a major source of the attraction. as an e5 type, i find e7 intoxicating. and for the very reasons i find it intoxicating, i find it threatening. that that optimism and re-framing and avoidance of negativity could easily work against us (as e5s). yet, at the same time, our attention to those facets of life make us well-equipped to deal with your worst fears skillfully, compassionately, and with more gentleness than you would expect from us if you solely judged us by our exterior. bc for us, unlike most e7s, we do not focus as much on moving forward and over-forgetting negativity, we instead dwell on it and over-learn it, which equips us with the skills to live with it and not compile as much debt regarding our unprocessed fears and potential threats. but sometimes, we take on way too much, and the light-dark battle takes too much out of us, and we just need a healthy dose of optimism. feeling connecting to life and specifically the life we have been given, our own life, to experience, which paves the way for us to recognize and appreciate where we have come from and where we are going. it allows us to feel gratitude instead of greed (for more, more, more!), as if that will provide the sense of security we can at times lack.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I have tried being more expansive...it's a cool exercise. I was having a stressful day yesterday and when I had to return home (early because of a job thing) the train had a 1 hour delay. I was completely exhausted after 4 hours of sleep and a morning riding crazy rollercoasters and was preoccupied by the job thing. Somewhere around the third train I took I realised that I hated the fact someone took the seat next to mine and that I was getting cranky and closing myself off and regarding the world as a threat.

    So I tried switching my perspective because I realised noone could help it that I was having a stressful day and I might as well make the best of it. I was still exhausted, but no longer cranky and did not treat the outside world as hostile and trying to impose on me. Tried focussing on the cows that were lounging around in the distance. That's right, cows, they're pretty non-threatening. :p I let the world vibe through me rather than close off and it was a positive experience.

    e5s instinctual response (?) to withdraw without explanation
    Not necessarily true for me. I'm more confrontational with conflict. I don't find it easy to navigate silent withdrawal myself.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Not necessarily true for me. I'm more confrontational with conflict. I don't find it easy to navigate silent withdrawal myself.
    Still waiting for your response, then. Don't hold back!

    ... I actually am more confrontational nowadays than I used to be, I used to withdraw. I feel now that the issue won't go away, and I just want to resolve it, so why cower/avoid? Facing it means I have some control over the outcome and resolution... and as soon as I get it resolved I can stop wasting energy hiding from it or thinking about it. it's done.

    This fits into theory, though -- the direction of integration.
    e5 -> e8.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    yeah the relationship to conflict is interesting. when younger i was very ascerbic and confrontational. i was still sensitive and somewhat risk aversive, but internally there was a huge desire to destroy any opposition. the internal competitiveness energy was really really high. i was very competitive in sports. wanting to win and defeat others. i always felt free to be very critical and dismissive of others who disagreed with me, and i would challenge them if i thought they were full of shit (which was often), but only in the domains i felt i was absolutely right (which i felt way too often).

    in fact, this tension between what to me feels like sx vs the withdrawing tendency i associate with sp really outlines the huge inner push-pull i've always felt. completely committing to getting what you want and going after it vs withdrawing and retreating and becoming insular and self-sufficient.

    i am much more likely to completely withdraw in a group setting than with one person. i immediately have this feeling if i feel like someone is trying to assert too much dominant positioning in a conversation, encounter, etc, and i have absolutely no patience for it, will not accept the role, etc. instead becoming more competitive.

  5. #25
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Definitely not speaking for all e5's with any of this, because it'll vary by type as well as instinctual stacking, as well as..individual nuances.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    there are distinct advantages to both. my weakness is knowing what feels right/true for me. and how to assert my own will over or against others, to rationally decide what is best and allowing myself to fluidly assert what i want as important regardless of whether i have more foundation than someone else in my own desires.
    I relate VERY much to this. It's been a continuous problem/stressor area for me in past relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in
    i am much more likely to completely withdraw in a group setting than with one person. i immediately have this feeling if i feel like someone is trying to assert too much dominant positioning in a conversation, encounter, etc, and i have absolutely no patience for it, will not accept the role, etc. instead becoming more competitive.
    This is really interesting. I am opposite. I don't think I have the competitive drive when it comes to 'dominant positioning' in the group setting, and also tend not to mind in many cases someone who is more dominant, as it means I can kick back and just watch.

    I can be more comfortable - and feel less 'naked'/vulnerable, in a group setting; of course assuming that I believe what I choose to share will be treated with respect. Sharing something with more than one person present seems less dangerous to me than when 1:1. With 1:1, I tend to become easily uncomfortable when being more raw/open with certain things. It's extremely scary and unsafe for me as a general rule. This reminds me of a conversation I had with an INFP and INFJ couple a few months ago; I am not certain of the INFJ's enneagram type but am quite sure the INFP is a dom-sx. He was mentioning something similar to what you just said - more likely to withdraw in a group setting, but in his element 1:1. I told him the group doesn't make me nearly as nervous as 1:1, where I can feel like a deer in the headlights. In a group I can blend in better, not all of the attention is focused on me. I think this goes beyond purely enneagram and such, but still, it was an interesting contrast. (this isn't to say I'm at ease doing any sort of social-butterfly thing, because I'm not.. I can only really talk to one person at a time and I tend to be generally quiet when the group is greater than 3 people in number... but I'm not as anxious in opening up about more personal things in a group than I am 1:1. Seems strange when I write that, but it's the case. It's like with more than 1 person, the vulnerability element gets diffused, or something. Not tied to a direct, intimate relationship where it could be leveraged against me or where an emotional/trust component is added and I could then get hurt. Ok, maybe I have trust issues. lol.)

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights
    Hello again casadeco. I am embarrassed that I was not able to immediately respond to ‎and/or acknowledge receiving the answers you so graciously provided to my questions. I ‎actually read this response minutes after it was posted and once finished started writing ‎back in return. Again, as a way to acknowledge how you have helped me better understand ‎so much about myself, my relationship with an e5 and just other people's experiences in general. But in classic ‘StarryKnights style’ I lost the long and undoubtedly ‎profoundly wise (okay – maybe not profoundly wise)…………post to the blackhole of the ‎internet. Discouraged I walked away from it, and ended up staying away longer than I intended. whoops.

    Thank you casadeco so very much for the kindness you have shown me.‎
    Now, you're going to make me blush. And, I don't really feel like I deserve such kudos to my kindness, honestly... I was just trying to be honest and I don't know that I said it as nicely as I could.

    And, I'm just as you.. didn't even see your response until like a week later when the_state replied to it, and then I've been super preoccupied with other things since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights
    Nevertheless, using my very limited understanding of e5s, I no longer see myself as 'strong' enough to be in an intimate relationship with one. Obviously I am not going to allow the Enneagram to dictate who I do and do not formulate relationships with. But it does seem to me that, when conflict arrises...and it always does (said to my irl e5) that the e5s instinctual response (?) to withdraw without explanation, etc. is hard on my desire to know that things are 'okay' even in the midst of challenges. I see this push - pull happening. Me sending the message that it is okay to 'move'...that I somehow 'need' you to 'do something'...and the e5 becoming just that more 'frozen'.
    Aww, I'm sorry about this. If it's any consolation, conflict can be troublesome for me and it's precisely because of boundary issues as well as the first thing above that the_state wrote and that I bolded -- I become very confused as to whether to assert myself, whether I'm not seeing the other viewpoint clearly enough, whether I'm overcompensating, undercompensating, justified in my initial feelings, unjustified, being fair, being unfair, etc etc.. I get into this big analytical mess inside my head. So the withdrawal isn't an intentional hurtful response directed towards the other, it's just my need to sift through the mess that's in my head and try to find some sort of balance between seeing the pov of the other person, acknowledging it, and determining whether I either need to assert my own needs more strongly or whether over a few days I realize I'm being totally retarded and it's not that important anyway.

    I'm sorry you concluded you might not be 'strong' enough; I think it's more just recognizing this tendency in the 5's (or, at least, me and some other 5's, haha) to need time to themselves to take a step away and try to clear their head and unravel things. Just as some people do best talking through problems and issues with another, even if perhaps in the heat of the moment when things are said that the person mightn't have said had they had time to reflect more, and reaching some sort of clarity through that talking-out process, other people reach more clarity/solidity by stepping away, removing any emotional context, and trying to reach things from a calmer perspective, taking that time to reflect.

    I'm not saying this isn't an area I can improve on, and that I maybe shouldn't do the talk-in-the-moment thing more often so as to alleviate any stress caused to the other due to my withdrawal, but at the same time sometimes it is a virtual impossibility for me to speak in the moment, without the initial withdrawal, because my head is, literally, a mess and I don't know my thoughts on anything and anything I did say might be far too premature because I haven't sorted things out yet or reached a final opinion. I will say though that I don't *think* I just withdraw without explanation... I'll explain that I need to think, that I'm not sure, blah blah, and that I just need that time before I can discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights
    But for me, my ‘will’ is always readily available to me. In this way it is probably ‘safer’ ‎for me interact with people and/or adapt to situations because I know I can access that ‘will’ ‎immediately if I need to and thus am less likely to unwittingly be pulled in a direction I do ‎not want to go. I know exactly what I feel from moment to moment and will act ‎accordingly. This often means feeling okay to change my mind when new feelings or ‎information presents itself. It also, on occasion, means changing my mind back. I can ‎easily let go of an attachment to consistency if I make a determination that being ‎inconsistent at that point in time will keep me within ‘what feels right’.
    Yeah, I think my 'will' is more nebulous. I also don't think I trust my immediate feelings that much, simply because half the time they might change later. I also realized a few years ago that I tend to have problems with changing my mind -- I don't like changing my mind. So that's probably another reason I spend so much time thinking through things - I want to find some sort of 'true solution', or something, that is unchangeable, because I find changing my mind flaky and view it as my not having put enough thought into it in the first place, or not knowing enough about myself in the first place. This is probably more of a P/J thing though. And I'm not at all casting judgment on the opposite side... just saying how I view it in myself. I just know it was an a ha moment when I realized that it was in fact OK to sometimes change your mind about something.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Wow, I can so relate to this. When faced with a new relationship prospect, I am halfway between really excited and frozen by the inevitability of it all, which leads me to question why I was excited about it in the first place, and to question if I still am. I really am not crazy about this aspect of myself.
    Oh my goodness there is a substantial chance that I will enter a relationship right now and I am feeling the exact same way. I'm excited and yet paralyzed by fear, almost to the point of calling the whole thing off if it does come up.

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