[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

[brainheart]

I'm upset that people won't see me at my best; she's upset that she won't see her best. Subtle difference, and of course, both wings influence a person regardless of which is dominant.

Oh, I like this. Something to ponder...

 

[brainheart]

okay... how about this: if someone likes something I create but I'm not pleased with it, their liking it is not going to be enough to convince me that it's good, although it may bolster my confidence a bit. Would that be more of a 4w5 thing or a 4w3 thing or both?

 

[Bubbles]

okay... how about this: if someone likes something I create but I'm not pleased with it, their liking it is not going to be enough to convince me that it's good, although it may bolster my confidence a bit. Would that be more of a 4w5 thing or a 4w3 thing or both?

Personally, I think both. Because the 3 wing is only so powerful for a 4. There's two needs for a 4w3: outside approval, and inner approval. They can conflict. See, a 4w3 hopes that everyone will love everything they themselves love. A 4 knows when they're being fake, and that conflicts with a 4's self-expression. So a 4w3 is more apt to make that mistake, but just as likely as a 4w5 to regret it afterwards.

 

[speculative]

okay... how about this: if someone likes something I create but I'm not pleased with it, their liking it is not going to be enough to convince me that it's good, although it may bolster my confidence a bit. Would that be more of a 4w5 thing or a 4w3 thing or both?

I think this has more to do with levels of health than wings. If you are unhealthy and are trying to support an identity based on victimhood/difference from others, then it would be less likely for a 4 to listen to the opinion of others probably.

 

[Bubbles]

I think this has more to do with levels of health than wings. If you are unhealthy and are trying to support an identity based on victimhood/difference from others, then it would be less likely for a 4 to listen to the opinion of others probably.

I'm not sure that's what brainheart is asking though. I got the impression the question was "If I feel my work isn't at its best, and everyone else says it's amazing, what does it mean if that doesn't satisfy me?" And that means you're an artist, and therefore a perfectionist, and therefore more concerned with how YOU see your work before all else.

4w3s, believe it or not, do this too. The 3 just makes it more likely for a 4 to please someone else yet disappoint himself. 4w5s are just as a whole more private about their self expression. Hmm. It's just a 4 thing, really.

It's just as unhealthy to downplay your thoughts for the majority as it is to never take anyone else's opinions into account and have unrealistic standards.

 

[compulsiverambler]

Interactions between Russell Brand (4w3) and Morrissey (4w5) are quite lovely means of comparing the two varieties I think.

2008 interview

 

[brainheart]

I'm not sure that's what brainheart is asking though. I got the impression the question was "If I feel my work isn't at its best, and everyone else says it's amazing, what does it mean if that doesn't satisfy me?" And that means you're an artist, and therefore a perfectionist, and therefore more concerned with how YOU see your work before all else.

Correct interpretation, Bubbles... but of course...

 

[TheEmeraldCanopy]

Okay, I'm going to be honest, I think that's very 5ish behavior. A 4w3 would ask people, or be more willing to bend their opinions based on someone else's perception (note: this is why I changed from thinking I was 4w5 to 4w3). A 5 would be more concerned about competency and wouldn't accept someone else's opinion at face value. Simply considering it and being agreed with isn't enough for 4w5; you want enough validity to satisfy you, yourself.

My opinions and standpoints on things (not all things) may fluctuate often or easily just by hearing someone else speak about their own viewpoint to me; I'm very impressionable. I suddenly feel overwhelmed if someone's viewpoint conflicts with my own, as if all the previous evidence for my viewpoint were squashed and that the door of standpoint possibilities is just flung right open again with this cold and menacing gust of doubt. I THOUGHT I had finally chosen a comfortable perspective on an issue, yet I am shifting once again. This part about myself I find really frustrating. :steam:

 

[psyche]

My opinions and standpoints on things (not all things) may fluctuate often or easily just by hearing someone else speak about their own viewpoint to me; I'm very impressionable. I suddenly feel overwhelmed if someone's viewpoint conflicts with my own, as if all the previous evidence for my viewpoint were squashed and that the door of standpoint possibilities is just flung right open again with this cold and menacing gust of doubt. I THOUGHT I had finally chosen a comfortable perspective on an issue, yet I am shifting once again. This part about myself I find really frustrating. :steam:

I can totally relate to this.

 

[demimondaine]

I can totally relate to this.

i can as well. however, it's not necessarily often that i'll actually adopt a person's opinion, just second-guess my own.

 

[demimondaine]

Interactions between Russell Brand (4w3) and Morrissey (4w5) are quite lovely means of comparing the two varieties I think.

2008 interview

i'm a fan of the smiths and have seen a couple interviews done by russell brand. never thought of them before as these types, but i feel it now.

 

[psyche]

i can as well. however, it's not necessarily often that i'll actually adopt a person's opinion, just second-guess my own.

Yes, that was actually what I meant. I maintain my opinion (unless I've realized logically that my opinion is incorrect) but second-guess it.

 

[demimondaine]

^ eee, apologies!

 

[moonlit_reveries]

Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...

I feel the same way about 4w3 descriptions. My dislike of them was one of the reasons I mistyped as the other wing for a number of years. It seems like the 4w5 descriptions are more favorable and the 4w3s are portrayed as shallow.

 

[Rebe]

4w3 emphasize on certain traits of INFPs that makes me grimace when I read them. But 4w5 makes us sound like really gloomy intellectuals who have zero social skills.

I care about intellect and competence, but I also like praise from other people. Like someone said earlier, I love it when people tell me I am really good at something. I am not as righteous as I like to appear sometimes. But I also care about looking good and wearing nice clothes. I spend an hour with my hair and makeup almost every morning. So I am not the deep introspective person who like crawls out of my cave... But I am also not outgoing, at all, and I do not like putting on shows or being someone else. I am deeply private and reserved and I am very biting. But I am also aware of people and their needs and can be soft toward others when they are in an overly emotional mood.

I still really identify with what I read over at socionics that an INFP is a combination of a playful ISFP and a critical INTP. 3 leans toward ISFP and 5 leans toward INTP. What if you don't...lean...all the way? The more I read about this, the more confused I get.

 

[surgery]

Just my perspective:

Personally, I used to debate intensely whether I am 4w3 or 4w5. My thoughts were something like:

On one hand, 3w4 is my idealized image. Am I attracted to that because of my Three-wing?
I don't really want to be a 4w5, so that must mean 4w3 since I am running from self-acceptance.
Yet, I can admit that to myself, so must have a Five-wing.
But, isn't this pattern of rejecting the self in order for a more favorable one an essential aspect of all Fours, not just those 4w3s?

Et cetera.

Now, I've almost just stopped caring. What does wing theory really even show us?
Arbitrary qualities such as "more outgoing" or "more introspective" in a type that is characteristically capricious and moody?
Perhaps, it's simply more important to identify and manage the core passion and promote consistent values in order to lead to integration.
From my experience, it wasn't particularly useful for personal growth.

The instinctual variants, however, have recently been helpful. Unlike the wings, they seem to provide a better understanding of how one interprets information, instead of just talking about surface behavior.

Any similar experiences?

 

[paradox fox]

Meow! 4w3.
I was in drama class in high school, but I'm not a "drama queen," you know what I mean? I don't like to be all bitchy and start drama just to watch everybody burn. Those kinds of people you usually only see in movies. I hate people like that.

I agree with ayoitsStepho...

...we can put on masks to fit in. If anything, we're probably really good at it. Which is suckish for me in identifying myself. If you've spent your whole life being different people so you can fit into different situations, you don't know WHO you are. Thats how it is for me.
And its not because we want to screw people over and be fake. Its because we need the closeness to people and if they see we're actually not like them, we feel we could be dismissed and maybe even scoffed at. I've never felt like I relate to people and at my inner core, that is what I deeply desire.
Its weird too because I feel like I need others to tell me who I am because I dont know...and yet I'm putting on different personalities so they really dont see me.
And yet, I fear that if I do share my soul and heart with someone....they wont want me. I suppose that is why I tend to put a smile on and just go with it, but alone I'm one of the saddest people.

...wholeheartedly.

And it's not like I put on amazing, super flamboyant masks to be viewed as a goddess or anything. I just want to be seen as normal, NOT A FREAK, even though inside totally I am. There's the dichotomy, paradox, whatever again.

I see the good parts in other people, admirable parts, and try to assimilate those qualities. I see the best in others and compare it to the worst in myself. Makes for an unfair comparison, I know. I'm trying to be more positive about it, not let it get me down too much. It's just part of my quest to get all the yuckiness out of me.

Other than that, the thing that Blackcat posted is spot on.

I've noticed I personalize everything for my friends, the people around me, whoever. By that I don't mean making personalized gift items (although that is fun.) I mean personalizing myself, in the things I say, the way I treat people, even down to my tone of voice and body language, tailored to what I think these people want from me. I feel like such a puppet sometimes, and I bring it on myself. :crazy:

 

[CuriousFeeling]

I thought I was a 1w2, given the fact I'm a perfectionist and rooted in morality and caring about others, but at the same time, I feel a connection to the 4w5 personality. I really am sensitive, despite I don't like to show it (don't want to seem vulnerable). At the same time, I'm intellectual. One of my teachers has said that I am my own person, consistent with the Individualist label type 4s get. Essentially, I consider myself to be a Romantic Intellectual.

 

[escolta]

I have doubts wheter im a 4w3 or 4w5 but i think, by reading this thread that maybe, or probably, i am a 4w3 who wants to be noticed and one way of achieving that is -paradoxically - using my intellectual resources, so i appear to be 5ish but its all a scam. hahah

 

[Elfboy]

I'm on the fence myself I have characteristics of both

4w3
flashy
into sophistication and class
diva-ish
like to shock people (but don't care about their approval)

4w5
take it or leave it
rational
introspective
not trying to impress people
detached