[Traditional Enneagram] The Beginnings of Your Core

[Hiraeth]

I'm curious to hear about the first inklings of others' core enneagram type and how it came to formation. From around what age did you notice it start to take place? What do you think was the root cause? How did it evolve from there as you grew older? Feel free to provide information on the wing/instinctual variants too if you'd like.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I'm curious to hear about the first inklings of others' core enneagram type and how it came to formation.
As near as I can tell, it’s always been there. It took me quite some time to figure my core out owing to improper explanations and everyone else’s bullshit getting in the way, but I think it’s always just been that way. It’s basically the “structure” of my psyche. No one “made” me my type—rather, they all tried to make me be other things. But there was no formative moment in my case where I suddenly "became" Type X.

From around what age did you notice it start to take place?
I mean, there is no right answer on this one. I remember fragments of my entire tritype tbh, from amongst my earliest memories. For example, at the age of 4, entering into battles of will with my mother and commanding my stuffed animal army in my spare time. Like where the hell did that come from? Being very moved by music, especially sad music, and being surprised that others didn’t seem to be able to intuit the sadness in these things. Probably seven stuff as well, I'm just not drawing any to mind. Anyway. There was no one consolidating moment, it's just always been there.

What do you think was the root cause?
Nothing made me like this. I had a single mom who was very interested in having me be a happy, quiet, complacent little child. She was, originally, doting and loving and totally focused on me. I didn’t watch war films, experience any tragedies, or whatever would make a 4 year old command armies and resonate so powerfully with sadness.

It’s like asking what the "root cause" of being Ne-dom is. I was Ne-dom from my first memories, too. I suppose it’s just how my brain (or soul, or whatever) is. I think the root cause is nature, or God, or the universe, or the flying spaghetti monster. You know, not caused by humans.

How did it evolve from there as you grew older?
The rest of my childhood and adulthood only inculcated me further with the need to be a 9—quiet, complacent, even apathetic. In school, I was rejected, marginalized, abused, and ultimately ignored. I didn’t matter. It was impossible to assert myself. No one cared. No one wanted me around. Etc. Goin' down to the garden and eat worms. Yet, I’m not a 9. I sure had a hell of a lot of typing confusion though.

Feel free to provide information on the wing/instinctual variants too if you'd like.
I’m a sx-first. A real one. Hell if I understand that either.

One practitioner suggests that instinct seems to be biological in origin, and I think Riso and Hudson try to relate it to upbringing (they don't do this with the enneagram types themselves). They postulate that sx-firsts have one or two strong caretakers in their formative years and learn that survival is dictated by close bonds--and this actually was true of me. But for all I know, instinct is inborn as well.

 

[cascadeco]

The collection of traits/elements of myself that I associate with 4 really began to take root at around age 10 or 11, and was firmly rooted by age 12, the start of junior high. This is when I first started noticing social hierarchies and vying for dominance, popularity, etc, and of course people putting down others in order to establish all of that, begin to take place. I began feeling the effects of being rejected by people who had formerly been my friends. I guess being very sensitive by nature, and being very bothered by the fact all of this happened and that people suddenly became 'mean' and I no longer had much trust in anyone, really, because of how I watched everyone treating each other, I responded by going 100% inward and remained as such into the start of college, where I deliberately started trying to reverse this.

So I felt extremely *different* from everyone else from junior high and throughout high school. Not in a badge of honor sense. I think it's kind of a shame that many people new to enneagram, and even the tests, tie being a 4 to being Different and Unique in a positive light -- because in reality the whole nature of a 4's 'differentness' (or rather --- the *perception* of it --- and there's the rub) lies in it being a very negative thing, a shameful thing, an embarrassing thing, hence envy of others, misdirected superiority in order to try to cover up that shame, and so on. There's nothing positive in the slightest about the feeling of being 'different' unless one is so far gone / unaware that they've covered all of that up and actually DO now feel 'better' than everyone else. Which... I dunno, that never happened to me so I can't really comment on that.

But, yeah. imo 4's 'growth' comes with recognizing that much of the 'differentness' is self-fulfilling / self-created, due to self isolation and shame and thus bringing it all about. And the sooner the 4 recognizes most people struggle with much of the same things the 4 does, the better. It doesn't mean the 4 doesn't continue to have kneejerk reactions of feeling somehow 'different' enough so as to be stunted (which isn't true), but it's a matter of ignoring, in a sense, or at least overcoming that initial reaction, so as not to get locked into it for the self-prophecy of making it be true. So my adult years have essentially consisted of continually not giving undue weight to that reactionary voice, and to not allowing myself to go 100% inward/cease the navel gazing. I'm still very much a loner (this prob ties more to instincts) but I'm not ... miserable?/ *feeling* utterly alone, like I felt during the latter half of my adolescence.

 

[misfortuneteller]

From around what age did you notice it start to take place?
I'd say around 4 or 5.

What do you think was the root cause?
I think it was because my sister was born and I got the message that I should take a back seat from then on. I think my wing formed because I felt like it was an injustice that i'd constantly get punished for bad things that my sister did. I don't believe that 9w8s especially tend to come from a pleasant household since it seems like an abnormal formation. I pretty much went berserk on the very day that I turned 13 and I decided to not let anyone get the better of me ever again. I got fairly sadistic in college that I even I made a classmate cry which pleased me. I also bullied so-called friends whenever I felt like I was going back to being seen as a pushover, again. It was like me getting vengeance upon the world in my own way.

How did it evolve from there as you grew older? Feel free to provide information on the wing/instinctual variants too if you'd like.
Well, I still do have sadistic tendencies but i'd say that i'm going back to my default 9 setting in the last couple of years. It could be because i'm really trying to, though. I use to not give a damn about my family but now i'd be their guard dog any day of the week. I feel like i'm trying to find more of the positive things about my link to 8 instead of using it as a force against people now.

 

[Hiraeth]

The collection of traits/elements of myself that I associate with 4 really began to take root at around age 10 or 11, and was firmly rooted by age 12, the start of junior high. This is when I first started noticing social hierarchies and vying for dominance, popularity, etc, and of course people putting down others in order to establish all of that, begin to take place. I began feeling the effects of being rejected by people who had formerly been my friends. I guess being very sensitive by nature, and being very bothered by the fact all of this happened and that people suddenly became 'mean' and I no longer had much trust in anyone, really, because of how I watched everyone treating each other, I responded by going 100% inward and remained as such into the start of college, where I deliberately started trying to reverse this.

So I felt extremely *different* from everyone else from junior high and throughout high school. Not in a badge of honor sense. I think it's kind of a shame that many people new to enneagram, and even the tests, tie being a 4 to being Different and Unique in a positive light -- because in reality the whole nature of a 4's 'differentness' (or rather --- the *perception* of it --- and there's the rub) lies in it being a very negative thing, a shameful thing, an embarrassing thing, hence envy of others, misdirected superiority in order to try to cover up that shame, and so on. There's nothing positive in the slightest about the feeling of being 'different' unless one is so far gone / unaware that they've covered all of that up and actually DO now feel 'better' than everyone else. Which... I dunno, that never happened to me so I can't really comment on that.

But, yeah. imo 4's 'growth' comes with recognizing that much of the 'differentness' is self-fulfilling / self-created, due to self isolation and shame and thus bringing it all about. And the sooner the 4 recognizes most people struggle with much of the same things the 4 does, the better. It doesn't mean the 4 doesn't continue to have kneejerk reactions of feeling somehow 'different' enough so as to be stunted (which isn't true), but it's a matter of ignoring, in a sense, or at least overcoming that initial reaction, so as not to get locked into it for the self-prophecy of making it be true. So my adult years have essentially consisted of continually not giving undue weight to that reactionary voice, and to not allowing myself to go 100% inward/cease the navel gazing. I'm still very much a loner (this prob ties more to instincts) but I'm not ... miserable?/ *feeling* utterly alone, like I felt during the latter half of my adolescence.

It was similar for me too. Throughout my years in school, I would make friends and we would seem to be on good terms for a while, but it would always end up fizzling out for some reason. My own perceived flaws were thinking they found me too quiet/shy, dull/boring, etc. I felt I had a pretty rich inner landscape, but for some reason had trouble bringing it out in the open for others to understand me better. This same recurring pattern of friends coming and going finally drove me to start looking for alternative ways to stand out in hopes of people finding me more likable and maintaining longer friendships with them. So I went soul searching for whatever it was I found fascinating and perhaps a bit unusual. That, to me, was separate from the mundane, and I even used it as an escape from it too. I started diving into the deeper parts of myself in order to understand what I preferred aesthetically, as mentally-stimulating, etc. The "unique" association really does come down to feelings of inferiority -- of lacking certain qualities that prevent our inner desires from being fulfilled. By accumulating whatever was at least slightly alternative provided a sense that if I'm not going to have what others have -- that I myself lack -- at least be bolder than the majority so that I can have something different and (in a more cringy, elitist fashion) possibly better to offer due to its greater rarity.

It did take me a while to realize (probably until my early twenties) that my insecurities resulted from my own critical train of thought. For the longest time, I never accepted whatever perceived flaws I had or even believed in myself. I admit that I still have trouble at times with this even today, but the good thing is that I, too, am not miserable as I once was either. I'm sure it's an ongoing struggle for many 4s to gain this sort of perspective, and perhaps even maintain it to some degree. It probably only starts to fully bloom in later years -- after maturing. I do think self-acceptance and as you mentioned, recognizing where the feelings of being different come from, are key points in a 4's development. Though it was an extremely difficult road for me to pave personally, and I'm sure it may result similarly for others too, but it is crucial for growth.

 

[Forever]

How does someone know themselves so well when they're that young?
All I can recall being young was that I was a shy kid who didn't want to be noticed by anyone other than who I associated myself with and was an observer.
For who I am today, I still watch what goes on.

 

[Lady Lazarus]

It was similar for me too. Throughout my years in school, I would make friends and we would seem to be on good terms for a while, but it would always end up fizzling out for some reason. My own perceived flaws were thinking they found me too quiet/shy, dull/boring, etc. I felt I had a pretty rich inner landscape, but for some reason had trouble bringing it out in the open for others to understand me better. This same recurring pattern of friends coming and going finally drove me to start looking for alternative ways to stand out in hopes of people finding me more likable and maintaining longer friendships with them. So I went soul searching for whatever it was I found fascinating and perhaps a bit unusual. That, to me, was separate from the mundane, and I even used it as an escape from it too. I started diving into the deeper parts of myself in order to understand what I preferred aesthetically, as mentally-stimulating, etc. The "unique" association really does come down to feelings of inferiority -- of lacking certain qualities that prevent our inner desires from being fulfilled. By accumulating whatever was at least slightly alternative provided a sense that if I'm not going to have what others have -- that I myself lack -- at least be bolder than the majority so that I can have something different and (in a more cringy, elitist fashion) possibly better to offer due to its greater rarity.

It did take me a while to realize (probably until my early twenties) that my insecurities resulted from my own critical train of thought. For the longest time, I never accepted whatever perceived flaws I had or even believed in myself. I admit that I still have trouble at times with this even today, but the good thing is that I, too, am not miserable as I once was either. I'm sure it's an ongoing struggle for many 4s to gain this sort of perspective, and perhaps even maintain it to some degree. It probably only starts to fully bloom in later years -- after maturing. I do think self-acceptance and as you mentioned, recognizing where the feelings of being different come from, are key points in a 4's development. Though it was an extremely difficult road for me to pave personally, and I'm sure it may result similarly for others too, but it is crucial for growth.

I can't imagine anyone finding you dull or uninteresting, even your backstory is interesting. Also, for some reason I thought we were the same age.

I guess it's different for 9's sometimes because the 4 has feelings of protrusion but the 9 is characterized by omission. Namely, of the self. Which can potentially make it difficult for us to even realize this sort of thing.

I was very overbearing as a child. When I wanted something I demanded it, I took all of the attention away from my brother and sisters, I was a bully to other children, in school I wanted to answer every question, and I enjoyed agressive activities such as sports most of all. Most people characterize type 9 children as the self-erasing type. Barring my sensitive, crybaby side, I was most like an 8w9 as a child. That is, expansive.

I didnt even really realize I was erasing myself until I was 20 years old because it mostly seemed like I was doing the opposite of erasing myself externally save for my early teens. But I was internally erasing myself and eventually in my teens I began to lean much more upon 9 and 8 was virtually not there. I was always told to be more of a girl as a child, since I was such a tomboy. And that dam of resistance finally broke during the horrible and most vulnerable teenage years. I was very angry and angsty as a teen because somewhere deep down I understood something was wrong. Only now do I realize it was self-erasure and the resultant feelings of being mispercieved as someone I could no longer recognize. Because I had pretty much been given the message that I was too much and that this was the core of my rejections, it was like I had slowly become empty and nothing as a reaction.

After life events at 20, my teenage insecurities died. I no longer tried to be who my parents and my best friend thought I should be. What I percieved as the condition for value (love) that ironically made those things worthless. Instead I tried to remember what I was like before I became severed from unconditional value. When it was ok to be myself.

Because I can't just erase the past though, I am now more like a balanced/mature version of who I essentially began life as. I also think I deceptively look like I would be a 9w1 because of the failed attempted breaking of my 8 wing during my childhood and my parents essentially teaching me that my expansive, domineering side was too much, merited pain and that it was not womanly, which was tantamount to some sort of sickness. Thus, the feminine exterior despite the fact that the "manliness" was never able to die internally. At this point though, I don't care if the way I am is wrong, because I cannot continue to throw things into the void that is the notion of conditional human value. My value can only be real if it is ascribed to me for what I am inherently.

I assume it's the opposite in terms of development for Male 9w8's in that their empathethic 9 aspect is discouraged and their rugged 8 wing is encouraged. Which is why I assume I'm so different from them. But there is no way a female 9w1 would have had these problems, which is why I'm certain I'm not that type at this point.

This was all actually surprisingly difficult to explain. So, good questions.

 

[Hiraeth]

How does someone know themselves so well when they're that young?
All I can recall being young was that I was a shy kid who didn't want to be noticed by anyone other than who I associated myself with and was an observer.
For who I am today, I still watch what goes on.

Understandably some people's memories are much hazier than others when recollecting events from long ago. Or in some instances, not even knowing much about themselves to connect anything together either. I just thought it would be interesting if somehow people could recall the first traces of when their enneagram started to really make its appearance. It's something I think about to make sure I am typed correctly by connecting the dots from when I was really little to now. I wanted to see when others came to this realization too, out of curiousity.

 

[Hiraeth]

I can't imagine anyone finding you dull or uninteresting, even your backstory is interesting. Also, for some reason I thought we were the same age.

I guess it's different for 9's sometimes because the 4 has feelings of protrusion but the 9 is characterized by omission. Namely, of the self. Which can potentially make it difficult for us to even realize this sort of thing.

I was very overbearing as a child. When I wanted something I demanded it, I took all of the attention away from my brother and sisters, I was a bully to other children, in school I wanted to answer every question, and I enjoyed agressive activities such as sports most of all. Most people characterize type 9 children as the self-erasing type. Barring my sensitive, crybaby side, I was most like an 8w9 as a child. That is, expansive.

I didnt even really realize I was erasing myself until I was 20 years old because it mostly seemed like I was doing the opposite of erasing myself externally save for my early teens. But I was internally erasing myself and eventually in my teens I began to lean much more upon 9 and 8 was virtually not there. I was always told to be more of a girl as a child, since I was such a tomboy. And that dam of resistance finally broke during the horrible and most vulnerable teenage years. I was very angry and angsty as a teen because somewhere deep down I understood something was wrong. Only now do I realize it was self-erasure and the resultant feelings of being mispercieved as someone I could no longer recognize. Because I had pretty much been given the message that I was too much and that this was the core of my rejections, it was like I had slowly become empty and nothing as a reaction.

After life events at 20, my teenage insecurities died. I no longer tried to be who my parents and my best friend thought I should be. What I percieved as the condition for value (love) that ironically made those things worthless. Instead I tried to remember what I was like before I became severed from unconditional value. When it was ok to be myself.

Because I can't just erase the past though, I am now more like a balanced/mature version of who I essentially began life as. I also think I deceptively look like I would be a 9w1 because of the failed attempted breaking of my 8 wing during my childhood and my parents essentially teaching me that my expansive, domineering side was too much, merited pain and that it was not womanly, which was tantamount to some sort of sickness. Thus, the feminine exterior despite the fact that the "manliness" was never able to die internally. At this point though, I don't care if the way I am is wrong, because I cannot continue to throw things into the void that is the notion of conditional human value. My value can only be real if it is ascribed to me for what I am inherently.

I assume it's the opposite in terms of development for Male 9w8's in that their empathethic 9 aspect is discouraged and their rugged 8 wing is encouraged. Which is why I assume I'm so different from them. But there is no way a female 9w1 would have had these problems, which is why I'm certain I'm not that type at this point.

This was all actually surprisingly difficult to explain. So, good questions.

Aww, thank you. I didn't know myself as well as I do now, so I didn't have as many interests and whatnot. Honestly I would have thought I was a boring kid back then too, so I don't blame it if other people thought the same. Yeah, I'm in my mid-twenties. I probably made it sound like I was way older though, ha.

Also, thanks for sharing. It's interesting, the change of dynamics from how you were growing up to how I was back then. I was pretty much your opposite, being instead on the mousy/meek end of the spectrum, so I had like zero 8 bone in my body, haha. I definitely noticed my 9w1 fix growing up too; that would definitely explain some of my extreme passivity as a child. In all honesty though, I think having an 8 wing or core is great as a female because at least you wouldn't allow anyone to just walk all over you. It's interesting how you noticed your 8 wing being more prounounced as well, but it makes sense when taking into consideration how most females have the 1 wing while males have the 8 (at least I would assume). Thus being told to suppress it all these years because of gender differences. It's awful that you were told it was the like the equivalence of some sort of disease though and you weren't able to develop that part of you until much later. At least you understand that side of yourself now and have the freedom to be who you truly are deep down -- a strong, badass 8 winger.

 

[cascadeco]

It was similar for me too. Throughout my years in school, I would make friends and we would seem to be on good terms for a while, but it would always end up fizzling out for some reason. My own perceived flaws were thinking they found me too quiet/shy, dull/boring, etc. I felt I had a pretty rich inner landscape, but for some reason had trouble bringing it out in the open for others to understand me better. This same recurring pattern of friends coming and going finally drove me to start looking for alternative ways to stand out in hopes of people finding me more likable and maintaining longer friendships with them. So I went soul searching for whatever it was I found fascinating and perhaps a bit unusual. That, to me, was separate from the mundane, and I even used it as an escape from it too. I started diving into the deeper parts of myself in order to understand what I preferred aesthetically, as mentally-stimulating, etc. The "unique" association really does come down to feelings of inferiority -- of lacking certain qualities that prevent our inner desires from being fulfilled. By accumulating whatever was at least slightly alternative provided a sense that if I'm not going to have what others have -- that I myself lack -- at least be bolder than the majority so that I can have something different and (in a more cringy, elitist fashion) possibly better to offer due to its greater rarity.

It did take me a while to realize (probably until my early twenties) that my insecurities resulted from my own critical train of thought. For the longest time, I never accepted whatever perceived flaws I had or even believed in myself. I admit that I still have trouble at times with this even today, but the good thing is that I, too, am not miserable as I once was either. I'm sure it's an ongoing struggle for many 4s to gain this sort of perspective, and perhaps even maintain it to some degree. It probably only starts to fully bloom in later years -- after maturing. I do think self-acceptance and as you mentioned, recognizing where the feelings of being different come from, are key points in a 4's development. Though it was an extremely difficult road for me to pave personally, and I'm sure it may result similarly for others too, but it is crucial for growth.

For me, I don't think I ever consciously *tried* to be different/ make my differences stand out; I actually wanted my differences to be hidden, and I was embarrassed by them, though I stood true to them. For example, birdwatching was a hobby of mine as a pre-teen; you can imagine the coolness factor associated with that. So when I was out birding in a park, and when I'd occasionally see other people my age also in the park, I'd like try to scurry in the other direction so they didn't see me, or would just be embarrassed as they walked by. I guess I felt exceedingly different by virtue of the fact that I did have different interests than others, and from my pov perceived everything differently since I had from my pov such a different existence than everyone else and didn't fit in anywhere / didn't think I did... I dunno. Perhaps I'm not in the end a 4, I just relate sooo much to the fears/hangups/actual preoccupations going on. However I wasn't one who tried to make myself stand out further; I was always going to 'stand out' as far as I was concerned if I was truly honest about all my thoughts and totally broadcast my interests... I just had a feeling of shame tied to them vs 'owning' them. I now 'own' them, but back then? Nah. Not in a confident way.

 

[Luminous]

The collection of traits/elements of myself that I associate with 4 really began to take root at around age 10 or 11, and was firmly rooted by age 12, the start of junior high. This is when I first started noticing social hierarchies and vying for dominance, popularity, etc, and of course people putting down others in order to establish all of that, begin to take place. I began feeling the effects of being rejected by people who had formerly been my friends. I guess being very sensitive by nature, and being very bothered by the fact all of this happened and that people suddenly became 'mean' and I no longer had much trust in anyone, really, because of how I watched everyone treating each other, I responded by going 100% inward and remained as such into the start of college, where I deliberately started trying to reverse this.

So I felt extremely *different* from everyone else from junior high and throughout high school. Not in a badge of honor sense. I think it's kind of a shame that many people new to enneagram, and even the tests, tie being a 4 to being Different and Unique in a positive light -- because in reality the whole nature of a 4's 'differentness' (or rather --- the *perception* of it --- and there's the rub) lies in it being a very negative thing, a shameful thing, an embarrassing thing, hence envy of others, misdirected superiority in order to try to cover up that shame, and so on. There's nothing positive in the slightest about the feeling of being 'different' unless one is so far gone / unaware that they've covered all of that up and actually DO now feel 'better' than everyone else. Which... I dunno, that never happened to me so I can't really comment on that.

But, yeah. imo 4's 'growth' comes with recognizing that much of the 'differentness' is self-fulfilling / self-created, due to self isolation and shame and thus bringing it all about. And the sooner the 4 recognizes most people struggle with much of the same things the 4 does, the better. It doesn't mean the 4 doesn't continue to have kneejerk reactions of feeling somehow 'different' enough so as to be stunted (which isn't true), but it's a matter of ignoring, in a sense, or at least overcoming that initial reaction, so as not to get locked into it for the self-prophecy of making it be true. So my adult years have essentially consisted of continually not giving undue weight to that reactionary voice, and to not allowing myself to go 100% inward/cease the navel gazing. I'm still very much a loner (this prob ties more to instincts) but I'm not ... miserable?/ *feeling* utterly alone, like I felt during the latter half of my adolescence.

I really relate to what cascadeco has said. Much of the reason I think it's likely I'm a core 4 is because, looking back, I see a change from being comfortable socially, though a bit shy, at around 8 to 10 and feeling ashamed, not good enough, like there was something wrong with me, embarrassed, and see-through in terms of my inner world being obvious (likely due to blushing and feeling that my very strong feelings were obvious to anyone around and that even if I wanted to hide them-which I did-I couldn't hide them well enough). I didn't want everyone to be able to see how I wasn't good enough. I was afraid of being laughed at if I admitted what it was I wanted or how I felt, particularly in the realm of romantic feelings.

At some points I have taken pride in the ways I was different, in getting good grades, in being smarter than most peers, in not being shallow or fickle, in not being mean to my friends, in judging cheerleaders and the like, in not being easily amused. (Yes, I realize some of you might scoff at that now, with my presence on this forum, but that is how I felt as a teenager.) I never wanted to be 'unique' just for the sake of it, that's the opposite of authentic, and I don't have a huge amount of envy. But there has been envy associated with those I have or want in my most intimate circle (so a handful of girls who I saw as competition for me in terms of a boy, or later, my mom's stepsons.)

sidenote... with several of those boys, it was other boys I should have been envious of... haha.

I still have issues with jealousy and envy in regards to intimate relationships.

I did become depressed and had anxiety, and ended up with disordered eating, largely because it gave me a sense of control, and because of the feeling that I was not good enough for the love that I so desperately wanted in order to not feel so utterly alone (though perhaps there's some 7 there? If I am able to ___, then I'll get what I want and be happy.) I was once called Ice Queen in high school (by a boy who insulted the band whose tshirt I was wearing), so I guess I can see some 9 passive aggressiveness there... my go-to way of dealing with bullies has been to ice them out.

I still feel shame over some intimate issues, but not nearly as much as previously. I still see myself thinking that once ____ happens, I'll be happy. I am making some progress here and there.

 

[Hiraeth]

For me, I don't think I ever consciously *tried* to be different/ make my differences stand out; I actually wanted my differences to be hidden, and I was embarrassed by them, though I stood true to them. For example, birdwatching was a hobby of mine as a pre-teen; you can imagine the coolness factor associated with that. So when I was out birding in a park, and when I'd occasionally see other people my age also in the park, I'd like try to scurry in the other direction so they didn't see me, or would just be embarrassed as they walked by. I guess I felt exceedingly different by virtue of the fact that I did have different interests than others, and from my pov perceived everything differently since I had from my pov such a different existence than everyone else and didn't fit in anywhere / didn't think I did... I dunno. Perhaps I'm not in the end a 4, I just relate sooo much to the fears/hangups/actual preoccupations going on. However I wasn't one who tried to make myself stand out further; I was always going to 'stand out' as far as I was concerned if I was truly honest about all my thoughts and totally broadcast my interests... I just had a feeling of shame tied to them vs 'owning' them. I now 'own' them, but back then? Nah. Not in a confident way.

Oh, I definitely had that "I feel different than everyone without trying" frame of mind too. For me though, it seemed that others around me were way more capable of effortlessly merging with people than I was and I always wondered why, thinking there must have been something really wrong with me for that reason. I just never showed parts of myself I was shameful about, and only the areas I was totally fine with, but it wasn't all out in the open either.

There were some things I kept to myself because of a certain stigma attached to them that I was ashamed of being interested in myself. I just stopped caring as much as I got older, and even express some of them in certain outlets of mine now, but not when I was younger. I was never super open about what I liked growing up, and even now to an extent. Hell, my parents didn't even know I was a huge David Bowie fan until I made that painting of him a few years back haha. Most still don't have an idea about what I'm into, even my own family members and best friends. Sadly, people on this site would have a better idea than those I know in real life . And many would often be surprised once they had gotten to know me on some level.

I think here is where the big difference between a social 4 and a self-preservation 4 come in though. My belief was that if I accumulated more things about myself that interested me due to not thinking I was interesting enough (and that's why I never seemed to make friends very easily), I could attract people toward me so they could see this side of me eventually if I decided to dress a certain way that could attract them in the first place. So I would do just that in my late teens in hopes of attracting a certain niche of people that I would likely have more in common with than others. That and art was mostly how I openly expressed myself, being so shy that it would hopefully give people an idea of who I was. So yeah, again, I never showed stuff I was shameful about, but would provide stuff about myself that I was totally fine with.

The self-preservation 4, at least I would think, wouldn't feel the need to be as open. It makes sense to focus on hiding moreso than finding ways to be a little more open. However, sometimes I do wonder if I am a self-preservation type though because I never tell anyone about stuff that concerns me and try as much as possible to keep everything to myself. I avoid asking for help like the plague unless it's something dire, and that's why I thought I was one for so long. So hopefully that gave you an idea, at least.

 

[cascadeco]

I think here is where the big difference between a social 4 and a self-preservation 4 come in though. My belief was that if I accumulated more things about myself that interested me due to not thinking I was interesting enough (and that's why I never seemed to make friends very easily), I could attract people toward me so they could see this side of me eventually if I decided to dress a certain way that could attract them in the first place. So I would do just that in my late teens in hopes of attracting a certain niche of people that I would likely have more in common with than others. That and art was mostly how I openly expressed myself, being so shy that it would hopefully give people an idea of who I was. So yeah, again, I never showed stuff I was shameful about, but would provide stuff about myself that I was totally fine with.

The self-preservation 4, at least I would think, wouldn't feel the need to be as open. It makes sense to focus on hiding moreso than finding ways to be a little more open. However, sometimes I do wonder if I am a self-preservation type though because I never tell anyone about stuff that concerns me and try as much as possible to keep everything to myself. I avoid asking for help like the plague unless it's something dire, and that's why I thought I was one for so long. So hopefully that gave you an idea, at least.

Yeah, this does make a good amount of sense imo, as far as a difference between more of an so-focus vs sp-. I definitely at that time wasn't seeking to draw people in who might have commonalities with me; I burrowed away.

When I was in college, like I said, I started just being more open about my interests and such, just throwing it out there, and though my good friends didn't share some of my interests, I learned it wasn't such a big deal after all and they didn't really care/ think less of me (helps to have the right friends too . And to this day, I am pretty open about my likes/dislikes, at least if someone asks / if it comes up; I now have much more of a 'take it or leave it' kind of feel about myself. I think that came about when I really accepted that I myself don't care for a lot of people; thus why should I think most people will care for me, or why does it even make an ounce of sense that I would need or want everyone to care for me? So I guess it's a level of peace about it, which I didn't have as an adolescent. Too, I'm sure that's more of an adult thing as well; I think most people as they age tend to go in this direction (well, at least non status-seeking people, ha).

 

[cascadeco]

At some points I have taken pride in the ways I was different, in getting good grades, in being smarter than most peers, in not being shallow or fickle, in not being mean to my friends, in judging cheerleaders and the like, in not being easily amused. (Yes, I realize some of you might scoff at that now, with my presence on this forum, but that is how I felt as a teenager.) I never wanted to be 'unique' just for the sake of it
.

Oh, totally guilty on this front, as my teen self, ha. Even my adult self I suppose, though now when I think this stuff I also tamp myself down a fair amount to balance things out . Ah well.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The beginning of my core is exactly why I have doubts about my core. Since I am not sure am I typing myself or radical events and coping with them.

 

[Sacrophagus]

And there I was, drenched in the blood of my enemies, righting the wrongs they have brought upon us, and shouted: "Glory to those with merit".


I'm the youngest in my family and I always despised witnessing my sisters blindly obeying my older brother or my eldest sister. Respect is earned, not demanded. They lacked assertiveness. They were too agreeable. I was their voice in their time of need, and even in their time of denial when they helplessly strived to preserve peace at the cost of their own well-being. "You don't believe shit of what you're saying.", was my catchphrase.

At school, I remember a little incident including a studious girl in my class. We were assigned some homework, and almost everyone copied from her. The teacher accused her of handing her assignment to everyone and asked her to go meet her due punishment. She was silent. I had a withdrawn nature, and I never gave a fuck about groups or fitting in or that shit. I was shy, calm, determined, and poised. It was never my business to make friends, even though I had many. I stood up and I looked at their faces. The class was puzzled, the teacher was intrigued. I said, "None of you is going to speak up?". They knew themselves, and they were filled with shame and anger. The teacher asked me what's going on, and I told them if they're not going to speak, I will. A girl felt compelled to speak and brought what happened to light.

I was and still am the voice for those unable to speak. I have no idea why I end up helping such fools.

I was always assigned to be the leader of groups and projects, even when I didn't want to. I was perceived as the voice of sagacity, the mastermind, the timeless sage and the bringer of just judgments.

On the other hand, I never was aggressive in my leadership. A sword strikes deeper when enchanted with ataraxy.
I had an introspective part of me that saw through people, their emotions, their motives, and their psyche. Never was I a loud person like most 8s, hell, I think most loud men are insecure, for to speak is with assertiveness and confidence. No more.

Even during my childhood, I lead by example, by being mentally in the destination before everyone else. With vision and precision.

I also might had and have a lot of women in my life, with whom I could establish an amazing emotional connection, but I never put relationships on a pedestal. Never did, never will. It's just how it is.

 

[Yuurei]

Probably growing up around sick people who constantly whined about about sad everything was. People who got through life by making others pity them and refusing to fight for themselves when they actually could have. Prideless, weak people who seemed to take comfort in their own learned helplessness. Worst of all, by people who tried to force me into that same pitiful roll.

I swear I must have been born this way. I knew-and was disgusted by-these people since as long as I possessed conscious thought.

 

[Agent Washington]

...I remember liking delicious food. A lot. But also hating badly tasting food so much that I'd rather starve than eat that.
Maybe looking into the past could help determine my core type. Hm.

 

[Morpeko]

I'm curious to hear about the first inklings of others' core enneagram type and how it came to formation. From around what age did you notice it start to take place?

I'm sure I've always had it, but for a while I never really noticed it. I've definitely been quite 4 as a teenager but never paid much thought into it, because I didn't really care that much about enneagram until last year or so. When I first took an enneagram test at around age 12 I did score as my tritype, although in a different order (164), and I related a lot to 1w9 descriptions so I just assumed I was a 1 core. My core is fairly contradictory with my MBTI (typed as ISTJ back then and ISTP now) so I think I assumed that me being a 4 is extremely unlikely due to that, even if I related to a lot of its descriptions as well as the fears.

What do you think was the root cause? How did it evolve from there as you grew older?

Not sure exactly what the root cause is. Part of it could be the influence of my parents raising me to think I'm super special, but school had much more to do with it. Started viewing myself as defective and noticing that I'm different from everyone. Started using introjection a lot as a defense mechanism, assuming that everyone disliked me because there's something inherently wrong with me. I do the same thing to this day, and keep living in past hurts, refusing to move on.

Feel free to provide information on the wing/instinctual variants too if you'd like.

My 3 wing is very strong and I see a lot of the positive 3 traits in me as well as some of the negatives. I've thought I was 3w4 rather than 4w3 for a while. But honestly, I tend to define myself by my pain and trauma rather than what I want to be and I'm missing a lot of the 3 adaptability.

I don't think I'm as so-blind as other sp/sxs due to my strong 3 influence, honestly. I've mistyped as an sp/so and an so/sp before. The piece of information that pushed me towards typing as an sp/sx is that I don't think I have any control when it comes to things in a bigger "social" scale, whereas I do in my self-preservation and sexual variants.

 

[neko 4]

I've been a Four since childhood for sure. I don't believe everything is nurture, though. I think I was born with a melancholy streak. I don't hate my parents or hate how I was raised. At some point, after enduring a lot of psychological bullying at school, I decided it was too painful to try to fit in and decided I'd rather be different, so there's the "nurture" element.