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[Traditional Enneagram] How do 8s view 9s?

Lightyear

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Jul 3, 2008
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899
I'm a 9 (974 INFJ) and have been looking more into type 8 since a work colleague (he's an 8w9 and some sort of xNTx but my guess is INTP) has surprisingly been opening up to me about his life and inner world. 8s are so different from me that I'm just trying to understand the mindset and how to not mess up when communicating.

In his professional life he comes across as incredibly calm and together (an 8w9 who has learned to control his emotions, ironically I as a 9 am impressed by his calmness) but has told me he actually doesn't like the vast part of humanity, has done martial arts to deal with his "dark side" and is also a lone ranger type, who highly values his independence. We are both pretty independent-minded but I'm definitely more idealistic and don't have the same hang ups about needing to be the one and only master of my fate.

How do I best communicate with him? Will he also at some point get fed up with my more idealistic side?

And is there something about me being a 9 that made him open up to me? Do we seem nonthreatening to an 8 and their desire to not be controlled?
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
There is nothing threatening about a 9, imo. As long as the idealistic side doesn't dissolve into spineless passivity or manipulation instead of coming out and just saying what you, the 9, want, there shouldn't be issues. I don't like vast parts of humanity, that doesn't mean I wouldn't work for the betterment of humanity - I don't see these as mutually exclusive. I'm betting there are things like this about your 8w9 that will seem confusing but really aren't.
 

misfortuneteller

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Apr 4, 2015
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578
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INFP
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9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
How do you guys view us 9w8s? 9w1s are generally how 9s as a whole are described, sadly.
 

GavinElster

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Feb 13, 2017
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MBTI Type
ENTP
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3w4
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sp/sx
I think 9's core is less about conflict avoidance and more about a kind of self-forgetting nature (sometimes a tendency to numb oneself). This fits a lot more naturally with being 8's neighbor, since 8s do the same to repress their vulnerability.

So really, 9 and 8 (as they should be) are pretty close cousins. There are gentle 9s and more aggressive 9s.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
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1,447
MBTI Type
*NF*
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852
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sx/sp
I had a few guys 9w1 in my life, very lazy and it didn't go well with my 8 side. They were too much passive agressive and I had the feeling they were playing with my nerves (which inconsciously when pissed off is the way to deal with things in their existence).

They told me they admire this part of me "I wanna do it I do it".

The ones I met were for sure not healthy (one lost his mum when he was 3 years old and never got over it, the other had some attachment/ dependency problems/another was addicted by such and such etc). So that was an opportunity to question myself

about why I was doing such choices. I realised this after 15 years of "mistakes". But without mistakes how would we learn ?

I definitely can't work with a 9. To my point of view they are not efficient enough, don't really care about precise communication, and generally speaking if they fear conflicts too much it becomes more of a mess than a solution for problem solving.

I imagine there are somewhat some healthy type 9 who are not in touch with only their compulsion but with the world around them, and, the most important(like in any personality) , in touch with their deepest self.

:peaceout:

Also, to avoid any misunderstanding : I wasn't in touch with my vulnerability when I met the first 2. Then I learnt many stuffs about myself and my own fears (it is more difficult to practice of course, but one gets to it when it is what we really want for ourselves).

Our relations depend of course on both sides. It is a balance to find, whether in a close relationship or at work ..etc. So I don't blame them for everything ! I blame them for the efforts they are reluctant to make when necessary (not to say when it is VITAL).

I still see the way they tend to minimillize or rationalise most things as being "dangerous" .
 

misfortuneteller

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Apr 4, 2015
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INFP
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9w8
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sp/sx
I'm not being funny but the two posters above aren't even 8s...
 

rav3n

.
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Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
If he's opening up to you, then continue being yourself. If you start behaving differently, 8s will see through it.

As far as myself, I get along fine with emotionally healthy 9s.
 

VeeK

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Aug 1, 2018
Messages
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MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
8w7
I'm an 8, and I was lucky enough to have a 9 as a best friend at a time in my life when I was very depressed and emotionally volatile (I was also young and not in counseling, so I ended up being a total jerk). We've since moved apart but I've been close to several other 9s since then; I tend to really like them. I think 9s can be very soothing for 8s because yall tend to have a non-judgmental aura. 8s are always anticipating to suddenly loose friends for no reason, and we tend to overwhelm some people with our strong personalities, but the 9s I've met have been very accepting.

Also, I think 8s may like 9s BECAUSE of your idealism. We lost our own innocence, so when we encounter people who have more hope than we do, I think 8s can feel motivated to protect that hope in some way. I feel like 8s sometimes get caught up in a black hole of our own cynicism; it's important for us to know that there are still people who believe we (and humanity) can be saved.

As for ways to communicate with him? My advice is, be yourself. It's easier said than done, but 8s value Truth and authenticity. When I find out someone has been hiding something about themselves or in some way holding back because of me, it can make me upset or irritated at them. When 8s trust you with their true selves, they expect the same thing in return, and they don't appreciate being treated as emotionally fragile (even when they are). 8s also respect confidence. And if he ends up not liking you the way you are? Then he's not worthy of being your friend. If he's already approached you, then the odds are, he likes what he sees. I wish you luck!
 

VeeK

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INTP
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8w7
I've only met one 9w8 (as far as I know). We got along excellently until she started acting like she knew me better than I myself did, which felt gaslight-y and v threatening. I doubt that's a 9 thing tho. She did have this mixture of kindness and over-confidence that came off as condescending in that specific situation. I yelled at her and left the apartment and she never spoke to me again (which I was happy about). I tend to either really hit it off with other 8s or hate them, so it might be similar with 9w8s?
 

Lightyear

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8s are always anticipating to suddenly loose friends for no reason, and we tend to overwhelm some people with our strong personalities, but the 9s I've met have been very accepting.

Also, I think 8s may like 9s BECAUSE of your idealism. We lost our own innocence, so when we encounter people who have more hope than we do, I think 8s can feel motivated to protect that hope in some way. I feel like 8s sometimes get caught up in a black hole of our own cynicism; it's important for us to know that there are still people who believe we (and humanity) can be saved.

Thanks for the kind post! Also I'm actually always expecting to suddenly lose friends, which has to do with having to be very independent in a regularly changing environment over a long period of time. (I've always typed myself as a 9w1 but have recently been wondering if life has shaped me into a 9w8, I'm conflict-avoidant but have still clear boundaries and never had issues with saying no to protect myself.)

Would you say that more or less any 8 is a pessimist/ misantroph who sees life and humanity through some sort of dark veil? Because I find it hard to relate to that, even after people have disappointed me I still like humanity at large. Is there any way for 8s to regain that innocence, to start looking at the world more positively?

And I've told the 8 in my life about the ennegram and that I think he's an 8 but he hasn't really responded so I'm letting it be, he has to figure out himself if he's interested. Unlike the 9w8 you are describing I'm not going to pretend I know him better than he does himself, I have a feeling that could backfire spectacularly with 8s.
 

VeeK

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INTP
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8w7
I would say that most 8s are prone to cynicism, but it depends on what level of development they're at, and that can change very frequently. I feel like the particular type of cynicism/misanthropy can vary a lot between 8s. I feel like as 8s we don't want to get our hopes up about humanity; it's easier to be pessimistic and be surprised than to be optimistic and be disappointed.

A child becomes an 8 in response to controlling and unsafe surroundings, whether that's in the home, family, school, church, etc. so all 8s had to "grow up too soon" in order to deal with a physically or emotionally threatening situation. When I say "grow up too soon", I mean losing the childlike belief that good things will happen to you, that right will always win, and that in general, people will not try to take advantage of you. The healthier an 8 is, the more they let go of this pessimism, but because the events of their past could be traumatic, it can be hard to believe in the goodness of people. I hope this clarifies why 8s tend to be cynics, but this is very much based on my own experience and I'd be interested to see what other 8s think about this.

I don't think innocence is something you can really get back once you've lost it. For some people, it's just a part of growing up (think Catcher in the Rye). It is possible to become more optimistic though, but again, how exactly that comes about is probably very individual. For me, I feel like my faith in humanity is restored when I hear about people defying authority to do what's right (like Oscar Shindler), people going out of their way to help others/animals, or people rejecting a system they were apart of that was hurting others (e.x. I had a straight friend who left his homophobic church), stuff like that. This is because my cynicism takes the form of believing that most people are inherently selfish or downright incapable of feeling empathy for people that are not part of their "tribe", and generally blindly submit to authority. However, I could definitely see how other 8s might think that putting yourself at risk to protect other people/people who are not in the "tribe" is foolish, or that empathy is useless.

Ultimately, if an 8 is going to come more philanthropic or optimistic, it's going to be because they arrived at that conclusion themself. But healthier 8s can enjoy friendly discussions/arguments about different worldviews. 8s shouldn't feel threatened by other viewpoints or dismiss people over disagreements (within reason).
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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... but this is very much based on my own experience and I'd be interested to see what other 8s think about this.
and [MENTION=4532]Lightyear[/MENTION]

I can only talk about my own experiences, but since you asked.

I would say 8s have a dark view of humanity, sure. They consider humans to be morons or worse—hostile, grasping, greedy, selfish, predatory lil fuckers. In lower-levels (speaking from experience, I mean like pathologically functioning here) this can lead to violence and abuse, crushing others, and treating them like so much refuse. Absolutely with no remorse…almost like being an automaton since we perceive the world as having dehumanized us to this degree.

There’s an underlying paranoia, not like how 6s get, where they ruminate on what others really mean, but just knowing that others are conniving to take whatever wealth or power they may have…and so treating others accordingly. Acting as a hand of God (or the Devil) to punish the humans, to make them suffer for their crimes. Gleefully, with an utter disregard for innocence. For there is no innocence to an 8 in this state. Only the joy of destroying humanity—this is justice.

But, that’s true unhealthiness, and most people will never get there. I was unfortunate.

For the earlier part of my life, I basically had a motto that people were “good at heart”. I still think that sometimes, actually. I really do feel like we come to earth as these pure spirits…it’s just that Life on Earth gets in the way, people are real dumb and selfish, society is mindless, and it all goes to pot. Soon it’s just ugliness all the time. It’s sad.

It seems to me that the people who behave the worst are the ones who’ve endured the most abuse with the least support. Who made monsters what they are? The rest of humanity. Hence, I haven’t quite backed off on the desire to treat everyone punitively. They smile and put on facades of their own righteousness and propriety while hiding their uglier side, hypocritically overlooking their own abuses while others suffer beneath them. They label the ones they’ve hurt “monsters” and pride themselves on being the “right sort”. And I enjoy holding the mirror up to their bloated self-importance. FOR YOU, MONSTERS. FOR YOU.

Because to me there are no monsters, only people who’ve suffered for far too long at the hands of everyone else.

Damn 2-connection sees the emotional needs.

There have been times in my life when I’ve felt so utterly enlightened as to the true nature of humanity (being grasping, dehumanized lil monkeys; shallow, robotic, self-congratulatory pieces of shit) that it feels like I can never go back to a younger more innocent age. It’s like a new white sheet spattered with blood. It’s not washing out. I’ve seen too much.

And that’s how cynicism is for me. I’d say it’s more about society and civilization and what it does to individuals (reward them for phoniness, or castigate them) than inherent qualities of the soul, which it only seems to obscure. I am perfectly willing to view others positively if they want to start acting like they want me to.

I don’t even pretend to know how to regain my own innocence. If it were that easy, it wouldn’t be my overarching spiritual journey. How do 9s learn to deal with discomfort and inner strife and self-forgetting? Hell if I know. Shit's hard. Best of luck.
 
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