[Traditional Enneagram] 8s and power dynamics?

[Lightyear]

I've been reading up on 8s and how they are intuitively aware of power dynamics as soon as they enter a room and want to control their environment. As a peaceful 9 who doesn't really have a power-seeking bone in her body that whole concept is foreign and baffling to me.

So you 8s out there, how does recognising a power dynamic look like for an 8 in a real life situation? How can you sense who has the most power and how do you respond? How do you respond to someone with little power? I'm just trying to get my head around how that looks like from the point of view of an 8, how an 8 experiences their environment.

 

[Sacrophagus]

Power play.

In a business setting, it does not come to what you're offering only. Negotiations are monopolized by those who have the highest status, those who are extremely transparent and vulnerable enough to show their belly, and those with wits.

-So you 8s out there, how does recognising a power dynamic look like for an 8 in a real life situation?

I'm an 854.
“Know thy self(first), (then)know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.” — Sun Tzu

In a room where there is competition and tension, there can be two possible dominants. Either a High-Status confident person or a High-status bully.

The first archetype is self-explanatory.Their reputation is built on trust, cooperation, and competence. They feel safe and have a lot of people backing them up.

The bully is the boss who chooses to boss you around instead of leading you. This archetype are insecure about their competence, and will likely shut down someone who's below them in the dominance ladder if they felt they might become a threat. Basically that insecure fat fuck who's preaching plutocracy in club meetings to secure dominance.

Otherwise, I'm the Sigma Alpha socially/Gamma socionics. In other words, I am there to support my ideals and whatever aligns with my doctrine and those who follow me.


-How can you sense who has the most power and how do you respond?

Imagine clans with leaders in the front. They met for some negotiation or truce. Most leaders do not respond to aggressive antagonism. We think it's petty, and that the other person has desperately something to prove. It suffice to be transparent, grounded, and clear in what you offer and what you want, and we might allow you the spot to share your wisdom and listen to your proposal.

We don't like sycophants.


-How do you respond to someone with little power?

If they have something substantial, I give them a voice to speak and be heard by all.

 

[rav3n]

Can't explain how, it's gut/iNtuitive. I can spot power mongers a mile away. Oddly, I don't want to control my environment, only wanting to avoid being controlled by an environment where power is in the hands of subjective/biased incompetents.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

According to this, Enneagaram 8's are power seekers. Is that incorrect?

 

[rav3n]

Depends on their level of health.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

[MENTION=4532]Lightyear[/MENTION]

I think the conception that, upon entering a room, someone notices the dynamics and hierarchies and power is soc instinct-related as much as it is E8-related (and maybe even related to Interpersonal Intelligence). I imagine it would be baffling to some not-soc-first 8s as well.

That said, I think you, as a 9, might understand more about this than you realize. Power dynamics aren’t necessarily about who has social power and what are they doing with it when you walk into a room. That’s part of it, maybe. But there’s also the matter of individual will and autonomy, one’s own personal sense of power.

Power = the ability to effect change and influence others or the environment, using material resources or one’s own inner will and presence.

Again, 8s can do this socially, but I think more importantly, 8s don’t want anyone to exercise power over them. Simple things, like someone repeatedly pressuring you to do something their way…someone trying to make you agree to something before you’re ready…trying to make you change your mind when your mind is made up…trying to make you give the one specific answer that they want to hear…or just the burden of obligations and all the things you’re “supposed” to do…these things are ALSO power dynamics. They’re someone attempting to influence you, exerting their will over yours. It becomes an issue of autonomy.

Surely as a 9, you can relate to that? Surely you’ve seen a tendency to dig in against these sorts of pressures, to resist? Perhaps a tendency to resent, avoid, change the subject, space out, pretend not to hear, play dumb, or simply forget about it? If so, welcome to Power Dynamics 101—you’re resisting others’ power with your own will.

Very similar to what 8s do and notice in others, but they are more directly focused on issues of justice and injustice, truth, vision and making a mark on the world. It's an outward assertion rather than inward resistance. Why? Well, I like to imagine it has something to do with the extroversion, idealism and vision of their 7-wing, just as 9s tend to keep their peace due to the counter-pull of the 1 (anger is bad). (Yes, each type has access to both wings). That's just my conception of it though. I hope that was remotely helpful.

 

[Lightyear]

(How do I tag someone with their username?... I'll just simply quote you.)

[MENTION=4532]Lightyear[/MENTION] I think the conception that, upon entering a room, someone notices the dynamics and hierarchies and power is soc instinct-related as much as it is E8-related (and maybe even related to Interpersonal Intelligence). I imagine it would be baffling to some not-soc-first 8s as well. That said, I think you, as a 9, might understand more about this than you realize. Power dynamics aren't necessarily about who has social power and what are they doing with it when you walk into a room. That's part of it, maybe. But there's also the matter of individual will and autonomy, one's own personal sense of power. Power = the ability to effect change and influence others or the environment, using material resources or one's own inner will and presence. Again, 8s can do this socially, but I think more importantly, 8s don't want anyone to exercise power over them. Simple things, like someone repeatedly pressuring you to do something their way…someone trying to make you agree to something before you're ready…trying to make you change your mind when your mind is made up…trying to make you give the one specific answer that they want to hear…or just the burden of obligations and all the things you're "supposed" to do…these things are ALSO power dynamics. They're someone attempting to influence you, exerting their will over yours. It becomes an issue of autonomy. Surely as a 9, you can relate to that? Surely you've seen a tendency to dig in against these sorts of pressures, to resist? Perhaps a tendency to resent, avoid, change the subject, space out, pretend not to hear, play dumb, or simply forget about it? If so, welcome to Power Dynamics 101—you're resisting others' power with your own will. Very similar to what 8s do and notice in others, but they are more directly focused on issues of justice and injustice, truth, vision and making a mark on the world. It's an outward assertion rather than inward resistance. Why? Well, I like to imagine it has something to do with the extroversion, idealism and vision of their 7-wing, just as 9s tend to keep their peace due to the counter-pull of the 1 (anger is bad). (Yes, each type has access to both wings). That's just my conception of it though. I hope that was remotely helpful.

I'm an sp/sx INFJ 974 so my Fe will pick up on certain social cues but when it comes to social hierarchies or status I just mostly don't care. I'm far more likely to judge you by your actions than your status.

From what I understand it's mostly about 8s wanting to keep their autonomy then, not so much about them exerting control? Because 8s wanting to control their environment is stressed so consistently in almost every 8 description, I thought it was a vital component.

I can definitely relate to not wanting to be controlled, I'm pretty easygoing and can adjust to all sorts of different situations but if people cross a line trying to tell me what to do and think and it genuinely goes against my principles they will hit a brick wall. I might not pick an actual fight with them (am too stressed out by open conflict) it's just more like, "No. That's not going to happen." and if it's really necessary they'll be swiftly removed from my life.

Am having a conversation with an 8w9 xNTP about the subject of faith at the moment and as a Christian I'm okay with cooperating with a higher being (aka God) through prayer etc but he completely rejects that (he's a Buddhist) because he says the idea of an outside force having a say in his life is something he as a lone ranger person finds no comfort in whatsoever, he wants to totally control his own fate. To me that sounds like such an 8 statement. I would consider myself pretty independent-minded but I have no problem with authority as long as I respect the authority. How could an 8 ever hand over control to someone else?

Also as an 8 do you believe that every 8 goes through a loss of innocence experience, that shapes them to not want to be controlled? (The 8 I'm talking about had a traumatic childhood experience that shaped their whole worldview.)

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'm not a core 8, but I'm fairly 8-ish, albeit in a more self-contained manner.

I don't necessarily consciously focus on power levels so much as I focus on who's trying to dominate me for their own gain. I notice this most with clients I deal with. If someone tries to talk over me or direct a conversation so as to manipulate what they want out of my services (I'm a dog groomer, not a prostitute), I will subtly assert my physical space and opt for a strong tone of voice (not rude, but strong and sometimes bordering on rude), and I may sorta cut them off to inform them of what I *will* be doing and why, just so they can't continue to argue with me and request unreasonable things (like "I know he's matted but let's keep his hair long"). I am "triggered" most by salesman-y Te or Se men who think an invisible red carpet unfolds beneath their feet as they traverse through a world they want to cater to them.

I also know what kind of energy/projection I can get away with amongst everyone I work with, to some extent at least. I prefer to keep my power hidden, but when necessary, I know how to release it with whom. That's not to say there's never been a consequence for my presence/actions, but I've tried to reign in on it and use it mostly as justified assertion.

I also find myself noticing who might be in need of a "voice", as in the 9-ish people who get walked all over. I regularly find myself saying "do you want me to say something for you? I don't mind."
My managers rarely like me.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

I'm an sp/sx INFJ 974 so my Fe will pick up on certain social cues but when it comes to social hierarchies or status I just mostly don't care. I'm far more likely to judge you by your actions than your status.

ENTP, and I agree. Although this may also be a cultural thing, too, idk...I see status-based behavior a lot more commonly in some other countries than in my good old USofA.

From what I understand it's mostly about 8s wanting to keep their autonomy then, not so much about them exerting control? Because 8s wanting to control their environment is stressed so consistently in almost every 8 description, I thought it was a vital component.

I think it starts with maintaining one's own autonomy. Of course, it can expand outward from there, and does--controlling the outer world is, after all, a way to ensure that autonomy. Just, I think there are broad interpretations of what it means to control one's own environment. I've met a lot of non-8s who I'd say are more "controlling" than 8s themselves.

But. I guess I didn't realize the original question was asking about controlling others specifically.

I would say it's a misconception that an 8 is simply going to walk into a room, declare "WHO'S IN CHARGE HERE", and start fighting them for control. Eights are more likely to take over if there's a power vacuum, if current leadership is incompetent, or if a group is dithering and directionless. Being in control of "their environment" usually doesn't include properly-managed groups or neutral public territory.

I can definitely relate to not wanting to be controlled, I'm pretty easygoing and can adjust to all sorts of different situations but if people cross a line trying to tell me what to do and think and it genuinely goes against my principles they will hit a brick wall. I might not pick an actual fight with them (am too stressed out by open conflict) it's just more like, "No. That's not going to happen." and if it's really necessary they'll be swiftly removed from my life.

There it is. It's not that you can't be easy-going, it's a matter of your soul being in your own keeping. No one else has (or should have) the power to make it move against its will.

Also as an 8 do you believe that every 8 goes through a loss of innocence experience, that shapes them to not want to be controlled? (The 8 I'm talking about had a traumatic childhood experience that shaped their whole worldview.)

Going by global population, there have to be 500 million to 1 billion 8s walking around, so it wouldn't be wise to draw conclusions about what happens to every 8. Speaking for myself, I experienced my caretakers as inadequate (in retrospect, they were stunningly emotionally neglectful), and my peers as intractably mean-spirited. I never had any considerations of innocence, nor was there some event where I went postal and declared myself dictator of earth. Lots of events where I locked myself away in tears and vowed never to be anyone's friend again. Lots of instances of me LOATHING my stepfather and fighting him. No need for me to worry about being controlled, I was always willful enough that it was inapplicable. I still remember and resent every injustice ever committed against me. And I find most enneagram descriptions woefully inaccurate. Of course, I make a poor example of an 8, and there are many people who would insist that 8 isn't even so much as my gut fix. So, take that for what it's worth.

 

[Amberiat]

I also find myself noticing who might be in need of a "voice", as in the 9-ish people who get walked all over. I regularly find myself saying "do you want me to say something for you? I don't mind."

This is extremely relatable, I find myself getting frustrated and speaking for others very often when I know they are being taken for fools but are afraid/too shy to say something and I can literally see it on their faces.