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[Traditional Enneagram] Do you determine your Instinct Variant Stacking based on want, effort or effect?

punkermit

New member
Joined
Apr 18, 2018
Messages
25
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
6w7
Presently I am thoroughly confused by how to determine my or other people's instinctual variant stackings, and I am realizing part of the confusion originates from when determining the variant stacking, some people have different orders in how much they want and value each instinct vs how much effort they put into each vs how effective they are with each.

Using myself as an example, how much I want each instinct, in order from most to least:

SP
SO
SX


How much effort I put into each instinct, how often it is on my mind, causing me anxiety, in order from most to least:

SO (by far the most)
SP
SX


How effective I am with each, how good I am at satisfying each, how much I get to enjoy each instinct, in order from most to least:

SX
SP
SO (suck at it :cry:)


In cases like this, should I decide the stacking based on want or effort or effect or some sort of combination of all three? Am I missing some other factors all together? Any thoughts?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I tend to look at my most basic drives and what I gravitate towards.

I know my least worry is Social, I'm not great at it, trying to invest in that level of network is exhausting and non-intuitive rather than natural and instinctive, and it annoys me deeply to have to invest in it even though I know it would improve my options in life and work -- not talking about "socializing" of course but that web of more professional basis and more casual acquaintance and feeling comfortable staying at the level and leveraging it for the things it is good for. It's not something I do naturally or think naturally in terms of.

I still tend to vacillate between Self-pres and Sexual. I find I naturally hold onto resources and like to stock up; nowadays I'm better at sharing what I have, but I tend to have a tight control over my time and resources and don't like it when people "invade" into those things. I like the certainty of knowing exactly what I have and I mentally allocate everything so I'm not caught 'without'. But I also find that I feel a deep sense of loss and emptiness when I'm not connecting deeply with individuals -- when I meet people, unless I can learn their "core" quickly, I can get bored and indifferent. I'm always looking for what is under the surface and deeply motivating.

Those two drives war in me, typically -- the need to control everything around me and know what I have, versus wanting to deeply connect and "merge" almost with others on an individual level.

So that's how I understand myself as some form of sx/sp or sp/sx.
 

Snow as White

ƃuıǝǝs | seeing
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
471
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I read somewhere that the dominant function is unhealthy and that the aux is healthier/more mature.

so i knew i was either sx/sp or sp/sx and felt that my need for that kind of intense relationship trumped my need for comfort and personal safety.

social things... they feel like objects sitting in my peripheral vision when my eyes have adjusted to the darkness, and i turn to look at them and they disappear.
 
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
432
Enneagram
9w1
Sx is on my mind for an unfulfilled desire, So in the form of anxiety, Sp is natural and would be useless to think aboutSx is what I want to desire, not necessarily showing in practice however as I'm very lacking in energy and tend towards familiarity. But I still have my eyes on the intensity in people and what they make me feel rather than any concrete material benefits (I don't care for money as much as someone I can be poor with if that must be the case)Sp just happens naturally as a result of me being me: How can I not preserve myself if I'm already low in energy and tend towards familiar things? I focus on survivalism and satisfying primal needs more than excess productivity though, I can make do with very little so I don't even need talk about Sp matters with others.So is very weird, sometimes I feel it's my primary instinct and other times my last... and I even test as such where the instinct is defined differently. I only notice how I fit in and interact with the people I'm talking to, but that doesn't mean I care enough to be socially adaptable if I feel I don't fit in... and nor does that mean I reject those I'm failing to connect with outright, I just act as I always do, I don't need to fit in right away, it comes with time and familiarity. But regardless that doesn't mean I'm incapable of getting around making friends with literally everyone, I can and will appeal to someone but will not appeal to groups: they have a different effect on me... I just don't feel social in groups at all.Also thanks for making this thread because Enneagram is very vague and difficult to define and apply to real life... at least if you don't have an imagination like I do lol
 

brainheart

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
77
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I find instincts confusing, too, and I think a lot of that has to do with everyone having a different variation of sorts: you could have a super strong primary instinct with hardly any of the other two. You could have all three fairly equal. You could have two that are pretty much equal, and one that's minimal to nonexistent. And so on.

I've decided over the years that my dominant instinct is slightly stronger than my secondary while my third is pretty limited. Most of my focus goes into my top two instincts and for that reason it can be hard to tell sometimes which one is leading while it's usually obvious which is last. I determined the order by asking myself, which supports which? In other words, I think we use the second instinct to support the primary. For that reason, the second instinct feels more stabilizing/conscious/rational while the primary feels more neurotic/unconscious/irrational. The primary just happens while the secondary (in me, anyway) requires more conscious effort.

Like [MENTION=28503]Terralynn[/MENTION] said, I think sometimes the last instinct can feel like the first, just because it's also neurotic-feeling, especially if you are someone who pays attention to it minimal amounts. Sometimes it rears its head in my mind and I feel all of my incompetencies in this area and the social four description really resonates. But then it just as quickly goes away and I'm just as oblivious to it as I was before.


ps: if I were to go by the typing of [MENTION=13911]Tomb1[/MENTION] I would be a 4w5 sp/sx. Eva Green is my celebrity equivalent, without question. (it's weird watching her) So take that as you will.

Stackemup Enneagram
 

Merced

Talk to me.
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
3,599
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
28?
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I share this confusion and I'm glad you made this thread about it.

Between what you want, what you gravitate to, and what you excel at, I think what you gravitate towards is what determines the variant.

I desire Sx greatly but I almost retract from it whenever aspects of it are presented to me.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I find instincts confusing, too, and I think a lot of that has to do with everyone having a different variation of sorts: you could have a super strong primary instinct with hardly any of the other two. You could have all three fairly equal. You could have two that are pretty much equal, and one that's minimal to nonexistent. And so on.

I love that you wrote this / bring this up, as I think I am a pretty good example of a super strong primary instinct, such that the other two are fairly muted in comparison.

Personally I *relate* most to sx elements as my secondary, as in terms of characteristic associations of what embodies so-, I do not show a whole lot of evidence in my life focus on so-, and tend to find that focus a nuisance; like [MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION] said, it's more of something I view as probably being of use/helpful / would benefit me in certain areas of my life, but ultimately I don't do much about it at all. However, I also understand that depending on how people view so- and sx-, one could probably build a case for my being either so-aux or sx-aux; so that's why I am leaving my type as just sp-.
 

Hermit of the Forest

Greetings humans • Hunting
Staff member
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
5,783
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I read many descriptions until I had a basic grasp of the motivations and behavioral patterns of the variants. So/Sx seemed the best fit.
 

misfortuneteller

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
578
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I keep thinking i'm a sp/sx but my behaviour as a kid makes me think sx/sp.
 

punkermit

New member
Joined
Apr 18, 2018
Messages
25
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
6w7
Well, after more readings and analysis paralysis, I have finally decided I am not SX first. All other 4 stackings are still in the running. 2 down, 3 to go. Talk about progress! :alttongue:

I have been reading some SX dom threads and while I fully admit SX related activities give me the most pleasure and happiness and I fully understand and can relate to the descriptions of "thrill seeking, adrenaline junkie, deep connection, intense desire that escalating and building up to a climax" feeling, I limit that kind of intensity only to my hobbies, aka, things I can fully control, and never to a romantic partner, let alone family or friends. In fact, I seem to instinctively believe romance and human relationships built on that kind of intensity will not last and are more trouble than reward.

I don't think a true SX dom would think like that.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
MBTI Type
NeTi
Enneagram
478
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Hey I think the instincts are really hard. Most authors write a paragraph about each, if you're lucky. The three descriptions of each type often aren't insightful. When you go online, you get all sorts of contradictory speculations, and all sorts goofy stuff--eg, "I'm sx first cause I'm SO INTENSE"/"I'm soc last because I hate networking". Etc. I've been kicking mine around for 5-6 years or so and am still open to having someone who knows me and understands the enneagram in depth flip my understanding. However, I've managed to derive a few major principles as to how this works.

- First, your dominant instinct is like...fish in water. Meaning it's your values system, it's what you naturally fixate on, it's where your attention goes...similar to your enneagram type. It can be hard to say, Hey what am I focusing on?--you've really got to think about this in some cases. It can be like with your inferior function in MBTI--a non-dominant instinct stands out so much from your overall perceptional background, you think it's the dominant one. Eg, I thought I was sp-first at first. And I'm...not.

- Your dominant instinct is often a point of minor-suffering-to-outright-batshit-tormented-neurosis. Discomfort. You tend to have self-esteem and ego hung up on this area, and it's often an area of some struggle (similar to your last instinct, except you're obsessed with it). If you find yourself freaking out or drawing the line on something and you're not quite sure where the vehemence is coming from, chances are you're touching on the needs of your dominant instinct. It is a point of insecurity.

- If you've had a lot of pain around your dominant instinct, you can sometimes front your secondary instinct to avoid having the first one hurt. Eg, an enneagram coach once asked me why I wore makeup as a teenager. And the fact was, I mean, I just don't know. I liked it. I didn't think it would make me more attractive...because it was like lipstick on a pig...I was so completely convinced I was undesirable...but I just liked it anyway. But because that felt too intimate and raw and painful to actually articulate to her, I just said, Oh, to rebel from my social peer group. Like a goth, right? Yep, cause I hated them. And she typed me as social-first...which I'm not, but I can't talk about the other stuff.

- Your secondary isn't necessarily a lot of "fun". It's just an area you're perceptive of, without many of the hangups of the first. You can still be awkward or neurotic in it. Eg, I walk into a group and I relate to everyone as the "outcast" because of childhood wounds. I think people hate me. I assume I'm not invited. But, I mean, this stuff doesn't really impact my self-esteem or set me off in any way. I'm more detached from it. I'm not necessarily "good" at the social instinct (eg when people talk about making friends or networking...just NO), but I am still concerned with matters involving groups and humanity...eg, politics, organizations, the Greater Good, diplomacy, etc. I give this area a lot of attention and like to talk about it and know what others are currently up to.

- The last isn't necessarily an area of unimportance, but it's something you cannot be assed to build your life around. Eg, I'm 35 and have no savings, no foundation, I'll never be able to retire, my (temporary) home is in shambles, etc. I don't really care, either. I mean obviously this is a matter of some concern for me and I'm kind of embarrassed to be 35 and this much of a loser, but my self-esteem is unimpacted by my failure to be a functional adult. I just cannot build my life around the acquisition of money, retirement, daily goods, and a stable home life. I just don't value this.

- SX--isn't about the act of sex per se, or "relationships". It isn't about "intensity". It's about sexuality, broadly speaking--including often-unmentioned areas such as desirability, life force, creativity, deep exclusive bonds and/or chemistry with other people, and in a more metaphorical sense, divine union and the Beloved.

SOC--isn't about having friends, hanging out, enjoying groups, networking, etc. It's about the web of interconnection, the bonds between all things, working together to survive, keeping current, and knowing roles (more than hierarchy)--who does what.

SP--I don't really know any misconceptions, but I do think that it involves preserving oneself, not just in the short term, but long term. Sometimes "sacrificing for yourself" or "taking care of yourself" doesn't mean taking long bubble baths and indulging in chocolate cake, but the opposite. Saying no to yourself. Being your own parent. Doing the practical thing for long term survival instead of what you "want" to do.


I hope someone finds that helpful. That's a nutshell recap of what I've learned in my years of study. A lot of this doesn't ever get talked about, but as near as I can tell, it's absolutely true. Good luck.
 

Venus Rose

New member
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Jul 8, 2016
Messages
324
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I need these instincts (in order):
sx,so,sp

instincts that are damaged:
all three

instincts that trigger me when damaged:
sx

so only causes me unease, and some social anxiety, but it's not that bad.
sp I have ignored so badly that due to trauma and such, it creeps up in my dreams in the form of mutilation, disease with skin peeling off and muscles eaten up, death where this guy dies and his eyes turn white because he is dead...a whole person being killed by a (hydraulic press? some kind of heavy machine that flattens/crushes objects) because he was already dying...etc. I see now that this was sending alarm into my mind that I am experiencing what is essentially psychological violence. I didn't realize it at the time. I do not watch horror movies as I don't care much for them, so there is no reason why these images would come up in my mind, unless they are trying to tell me something, specially considering the fact that they were all nightmares.

Trauma caused to my sx affects my psychological integrity (sp) as well; I just didn't realize that that was the case since SP is so incredibly unconscious for me. I guess SO issues could also cause that, but nothing like that has happened yet, since I am not that bothered by soc issues that I might encounter.
 

Earl Grey

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Dec 3, 2017
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583
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sp/so
Personally- definitely based off want (or rather, value). Effort and effect comes after that. The effort comes based off the want, and the effect comes due to the efforts (or lack of efforts) that gets put in. I think digging into the why you do what you do helps in tying it back to a certain IV, but it can be difficult because so much of it comes as a 'duh, that's a given' and is done on autopilot. Fish can't see the water it swims in.

I read that your second instinct is the one you use to achieve the first, and I can see that in me. No matter how proficient I am in the second IV and how much time and effort I put in it, if I realize / see that it comes at the cost of my main IV, it's gone- in other words, I don't value it for its own sake, but rather what it gets me. It's a medium, like how a car or bus takes you to some place you like- doesn't really mean you like the car (you may or may not) but you'd leave the bus / route if you realized it wasn't taking you where you wanted. I think this would be true for any combination of IV stackings.

Once I had a better understanding of the instincts, determining my last IV was much too easy. I just simply didn't value it, and people pushing it on me reads to me like offering me garbage in exchange for my gold. Wow, get lost. I think this is also true of any instinctual combination.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
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1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
- Your dominant instinct is often a point of minor-suffering-to-outright-batshit-tormented-neurosis. Discomfort. You tend to have self-esteem and ego hung up on this area, and it's often an area of some struggle (similar to your last instinct, except you're obsessed with it). If you find yourself freaking out or drawing the line on something and you're not quite sure where the vehemence is coming from, chances are you're touching on the needs of your dominant instinct. It is a point of insecurity.
Firstly: this whole post is really good.

Secondly: I typed myself incorrectly as sp-last for years, because I was simultaneously fixated on it and bad at prioritizing it. I was told not to value it, but I longed for it nonetheless, and I struggled with that tension. After all that time trying to disregard it, embracing it feels... luxurious.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
MBTI Type
NeTi
Enneagram
478
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Firstly: this whole post is really good.

Secondly: I typed myself incorrectly as sp-last for years, because I was simultaneously fixated on it and bad at prioritizing it. I was told not to value it, but I longed for it nonetheless, and I struggled with that tension. After all that time trying to disregard it, embracing it feels... luxurious.
Similar. I was fixated on the needs of my instinct while ignoring it, hiding it, or denying it. Hiding it because I thought it was weird. Denying it because it caused me too much pain and trouble. It's definitely possible to act against the dominant instinct, and that's what happened with me. It's amazing how clueless I can be around it while simultaneously being driven by it--figuring out that this is the case is one of the most liberating experiences you will ever have.
 

Earl Grey

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Reading the above posts, I wonder if how the main variant is denied / embraced depends on the enneatype?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
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ESTJ
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sp/so
Reading the above posts, I wonder if how the main variant is denied / embraced depends on the enneatype?
With 1, I imagine it's like most things - if you come to the conclusion that it's right, then you embrace it. If not, then you deny it.
 

Earl Grey

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INTJ
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sp/so
With 1, I imagine it's like most things - if you come to the conclusion that it's right, then you embrace it. If not, then you deny it.

It is written in several descriptions of the primary variant that there is a bias with the first instinct, that it is what is 'correct', and it is thus taken for granted- "everyone does this". If it comes very naturally to the person of that variant, I'd think that deviations would come across as being told that 2 + 2 = 10, i.e automatically 'wrong'. How does ignoring it happen, and how were you able to tell finally that 'yes, this [my variant] is the right thing to do'?
 

Saturnal Snowqueen

Solastalgia 𓍊𓋼𓍊𓋼𓍊
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Jan 9, 2019
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6,124
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FELV
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974
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Want and effort I'd say. Effect kinda, but you can strive for something without being great at it. Another thing that helped me determine my IVs is how comfortable I am with each of them.


I know I'm sx last because sx matters simply make me uncomfortable. Close relationships sound appealing at first cause I'm an introvert who wants to have a couple friends. But outside the romance realm, close relationships are tiring. There's just this certain vulnerability of close relationships that feels awkward. It's like a push and pull because my SO instinct wants to get to know everybody, their interests and backstories, but actually getting close with someone feels weird. Unless I'm obsessed with a show or am really invested a topic(like typology of course), I don't really crave that intensity that SX doms talk about.

I'm a SP/SO, which was hard to decide on as my SP/SO feel equal to each other. I've settled on SP first for now as it feels like more of a need to me. SO, while it can be a need when I feel left out, usually feels like a want compared to SP and is more a playground area. I'm an inherently private person, I hoard, I try to focus on my health, because it makes me feel safe. My SO manifests in being interested in "peoply" things(like psychology and different cultures), memes, and going on this site.

This is my own theory kind of; I feel like my instincts integrate and disintegrate like the numbers do. Like when I'm unhealthy I feel more clingy, while when I'm healthiest I'm more outgoing and interested in peopling while still loving my alone time.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,883
I think once you get that it is, in fact, instinctual, it will be easier to see. You don't notice you are breathing until you remind yourself that you don't notice it.
 
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