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  1. #1
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Default Type 1: Effective Communication

    I some need type 1 understanding.

    The frame
    Put on a hat of immaturity; picture yourself as younger and less self-aware, you have an element of self indignation, are frustrated, and have the view that others are not being fair/moral, then help me understand how someone could most effectively get through to you at that point in your life.

    The scenario
    I manage a 1 who is first and foremost a lovely person, they are also stressed and that stress comes out in an ugly, unaware manner that dismisses everyone else with an "I'm right, they're wrong" stance. They appear to exclude themselves from their criticism while being intolerant of others. They can make blanket black and white statements suggesting that everyone else is 'bad' in some way and they alone understand what is right and correct. The problem is driven from frustration more than anything but it's having a very negative impact and damaging relationships, a situation they are either unaware of, or do not care about.

    My aim
    My primary aim is have her become more aware of her own behaviour and observe how anger is being turned into frustration that is coming out as rude to others. The biggest blockers I have is;
    1. She re-directs conversations away from her and onto previous conversations, or how others are the problem (which from my pov, is not true), and
    2. She is quite sensitive so a blunt approach can be met with hurt, anger and defensiveness.
    That said, she does respect and trust me, so it's not all uphill.

    For the sake of her satisfaction, the relationships with those around her, and my need to set appropriate and consistent minimum standards, things need to improve.

    The question
    What would have been the most effective way to deal with you through problems when you were younger or less aware? Or if you've always been a vision of maturity what is the most effective approach based on your personal insight of your type?

    While you're at it, anything specific about frustrations about type 9 communication is also welcome. I'm pretty blunt for a 9 thanks to ma' wing, but I am still flavoured with a peace-loving-inner-hippy vibe.



    @fidelia @Hard @EJCC, other 1s; insight wanted.

  2. #2
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    It’s tough because so much of that DOES come from sensitivity, and not knowing how to deal with being so sensitive other than being perpetually angry and defensive.

    I think I would encourage you to have some kind of Socratic walk-through of best practices for when you really want to get something through a particular person’s head. Like, use an example that she’s currently angry about, and show her how she can convince that person she’s right in a strategic way. Don’t frame it like you’re correcting her - frame it like you’re helping her solve a problem that has been slowly driving her crazy.

    This might not work for all 1s, but a big reason why I’ve leveled off so much is because I’ve learned that you can’t just hit every obstacle in your life with the same sledgehammer and expect it to react the same way. You have to adapt.

    (Before you say “but EJ, this is treating the symptom, not the problem”: this same adaptation helped me better understand other perspectives, and be somewhat of a better listener. Kind of a fake it til you make it thing. The longer you observe how others tick, to figure out how to show them they’re wrong, the more you naturally start to sympathize with them.)
    ”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”

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  3. #3

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    Good to see you still poke around here

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I some need type 1 understanding.

    The frame
    Put on a hat of immaturity; picture yourself as younger and less self-aware, you have an element of self indignation, are frustrated, and have the view that others are not being fair/moral, then help me understand how someone could most effectively get through to you at that point in your life.
    Interestingly, this wasn't so much of a thing for me when I was young, but it definitely emerged in other ways. If I did hear someone tell me something and it was immoral or wrong or w/e (much more pronounced with social stuff) I often wouldn't get indignation or overt agression, but in my mind I would like "erm, nope" and basically just lock down. If I had to comply I would, but mind would remain unmoved. It drove my father (ESTJ 1w2) insane all through his life because while he could control my actions, he was largely incapable of effecting mind.

    The thing is though, if someone could logically and fairly explain to me what they were wanting, and it does follow a logical progression, I'd comply. They key was speak my language, and justify your assertions. If their assertions couldn't be justified such as with a "because I said so!" ha yeah fat chance I'd write you off and stop respecting any infomation they provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The scenario
    I manage a 1 who is first and foremost a lovely person, they are also stressed and that stress comes out in an ugly, unaware manner that dismisses everyone else with an "I'm right, they're wrong" stance. They appear to exclude themselves from their criticism while being intolerant of others. They can make blanket black and white statements suggesting that everyone else is 'bad' in some way and they alone understand what is right and correct. The problem is driven from frustration more than anything but it's having a very negative impact and damaging relationships, a situation they are either unaware of, or do not care about.
    At least with me, if I am indignant and that locked down, any approach you will take will not do a darn thing. I'll have long locked down on my position and additional pressure is just going to brew resentment. There's actually some cases where that resentment is essentially lifelong. Still can't let go if it to this day, doubt I ever will. The best that can happen is a person respects me and shows understanding of where I am at. I will then usually stop being angry and will be able to discuss it with them, but it's still unlikely I will move. I will just more or less articulate it more, and in a very nice way say "I am not moving". However, if their argument ultimately is logical and it pretty resolutely shows me I am in the wrong and have no position at all, then I will relent, but I often don't come to that conclusion until I am alone and have had time to reflect.

    I'm the type of person where if I was convicted of a crime, and I just flat disagreed with the law in the first place, I would never relent or repent in my mind. Probably be quite loud about it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    My aim
    My primary aim is have her become more aware of her own behaviour and observe how anger is being turned into frustration that is coming out as rude to others. The biggest blockers I have is;
    1. She re-directs conversations away from her and onto previous conversations, or how others are the problem (which from my pov, is not true), and
    2. She is quite sensitive so a blunt approach can be met with hurt, anger and defensiveness.
    That said, she does respect and trust me, so it's not all uphill.

    For the sake of her satisfaction, the relationships with those around her, and my need to set appropriate and consistent minimum standards, things need to improve.
    Show that you respect her mind/logic. That works for me, but it can take time to develop. Now if I am shown respect, and if I sense hidden under the suface respect isn't actually there, all bets are off. It does need to be genuine. Another thing that can work (that has to be done in such a way that is not implying or imparting guilt) is to illustrate how moving position is better for the greater good, and that she needs to take a hit. Not full proof, but that can work too. You sort of have to lead her to make her own decisions.

    Ultimately if she doesn't move, hammer has to come down. There are times in my life where an objective wielding of authority forced me to stop, and it's all that would work. But, that still won't touch my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The question
    What would have been the most effective way to deal with you through problems when you were younger or less aware? Or if you've always been a vision of maturity what is the most effective approach based on your personal insight of your type?

    While you're at it, anything specific about frustrations about type 9 communication is also welcome. I'm pretty blunt for a 9 thanks to ma' wing, but I am still flavoured with a peace-loving-inner-hippy vibe.
    9's are the type I relate to the least. I don't hate them, but I am slow to respect many of them. Big problem is I can see them as fence sitters on too many issues I have solid stances off, thus determine their judgement isn't up to snuff and then they'll never reach me. They might also not even know that either as it's not something I tell the person. That's kinda secret info. In general I don't have much trust in people until they start expressing their personal opinions on matters around me. In essence, don't come across as too soft. Edgeness needs to be seen at times.
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  4. #4
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Thanks both <3

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    It’s tough because so much of that DOES come from sensitivity, and not knowing how to deal with being so sensitive other than being perpetually angry and defensive.
    Are ones generally aware of their sensitivity and the causes, or does it get re-framed into a view of being wronged/misunderstood/ect?

    I think I would encourage you to have some kind of Socratic walk-through of best practices for when you really want to get something through a particular person’s head. Like, use an example that she’s currently angry about, and show her how she can convince that person she’s right in a strategic way. Don’t frame it like you’re correcting her - frame it like you’re helping her solve a problem that has been slowly driving her crazy.
    I think that would be very effective, thanks.

    She wants me to be on her side and and is very self-driven when it comes to making up her mind, I cannot force her to change attitude or belief but she's smart enough to be able to see a contradiction if she has to analyse it herself. I also get the impression that if she saw a contradiction she would be unsatisfied and privately work on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Interestingly, this wasn't so much of a thing for me when I was young, but it definitely emerged in other ways. If I did hear someone tell me something and it was immoral or wrong or w/e (much more pronounced with social stuff) I often wouldn't get indignation or overt agression, but in my mind I would like "erm, nope" and basically just lock down. If I had to comply I would, but mind would remain unmoved. It drove my father (ESTJ 1w2) insane all through his life because while he could control my actions, he was largely incapable of effecting mind.

    The thing is though, if someone could logically and fairly explain to me what they were wanting, and it does follow a logical progression, I'd comply. They key was speak my language, and justify your assertions. If their assertions couldn't be justified such as with a "because I said so!" ha yeah fat chance I'd write you off and stop respecting any infomation they provide.

    At least with me, if I am indignant and that locked down, any approach you will take will not do a darn thing. I'll have long locked down on my position and additional pressure is just going to brew resentment. There's actually some cases where that resentment is essentially lifelong. Still can't let go if it to this day, doubt I ever will. The best that can happen is a person respects me and shows understanding of where I am at. I will then usually stop being angry and will be able to discuss it with them, but it's still unlikely I will move. I will just more or less articulate it more, and in a very nice way say "I am not moving". However, if their argument ultimately is logical and it pretty resolutely shows me I am in the wrong and have no position at all, then I will relent, but I often don't come to that conclusion until I am alone and have had time to reflect.

    I'm the type of person where if I was convicted of a crime, and I just flat disagreed with the law in the first place, I would never relent or repent in my mind. Probably be quite loud about it too.
    I'm lucky in the sense that she is very morally concerned with being respectful and does comment often enough that she trusts and respects me so will try it when I ask her to do something she isn't on board with, if she didn't respect me this would be a whole other battle, at this point we can approach problems from the pov that we're on the same side and I respect what she has to say. The reason I'm analysing because I take my next step is because I don't want to damage that, I recognise if she did not respect me or saw me as adversarial this would become a disciplinary conversation where I was being directive, she may follow through on set actions but I'd be pulling a mule behind me the whole way and if she got an inch would take a mile out of resentment. She brings enough positive attributes to the table so I'd rather make the effort to turn things around.

    Show that you respect her mind/logic. That works for me, but it can take time to develop. Now if I am shown respect, and if I sense hidden under the suface respect isn't actually there, all bets are off. It does need to be genuine. Another thing that can work (that has to be done in such a way that is not implying or imparting guilt) is to illustrate how moving position is better for the greater good, and that she needs to take a hit. Not full proof, but that can work too. You sort of have to lead her to make her own decisions.
    She is quite intelligent and has many good ideas to offer, it's the emotional maturity that is causing problems, so that part is easy to do.

    Ultimately if she doesn't move, hammer has to come down. There are times in my life where an objective wielding of authority forced me to stop, and it's all that would work. But, that still won't touch my mind.
    What are the distinguishing lines for you between;
    - The below dislike of ambiguity and lack of conviction
    - A preference for consistency and expressed opinions
    - Authoritarian type directions

    9's are the type I relate to the least. I don't hate them, but I am slow to respect many of them. Big problem is I can see them as fence sitters on too many issues I have solid stances off, thus determine their judgement isn't up to snuff and then they'll never reach me. They might also not even know that either as it's not something I tell the person. That's kinda secret info. In general I don't have much trust in people until they start expressing their personal opinions on matters around me. In essence, don't come across as too soft. Edgeness needs to be seen at times.
    Thanks. Noted. I refuse to be an unaffected 9, but it does take constant vigilance to push that connection to 8 forward and not let things pass.



    Separate question: What Enneagram author in your opinion best explains the core motivations of a type 1?

  5. #5
    Haunted Echoes Red Memories's Avatar
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    Well an E1 is gonna have the great wall of China up for you XD

    The frame
    Put on a hat of immaturity; picture yourself as younger and less self-aware, you have an element of self indignation, are frustrated, and have the view that others are not being fair/moral, then help me understand how someone could most effectively get through to you at that point in your life. - Well a lot of getting through to me is how specifically you bring it up and phrase it. If you hit me with blunt force trauma I won't take it well and will hit you as hard back. I think displaying it as sort of a learning thing makes me take it better. Just act like your teaching me something new, I am going to put my wall down and think about what was said moreso than I would by an argument or confrontation.

    The scenario
    I manage a 1 who is first and foremost a lovely person, they are also stressed and that stress comes out in an ugly, unaware manner that dismisses everyone else with an "I'm right, they're wrong" stance. They appear to exclude themselves from their criticism while being intolerant of others. They can make blanket black and white statements suggesting that everyone else is 'bad' in some way and they alone understand what is right and correct. The problem is driven from frustration more than anything but it's having a very negative impact and damaging relationships, a situation they are either unaware of, or do not care about. - I think an important thing to know about E1, is they are usually as hard on themselves in private as they are on others. I've been told I can be condescending but I condescend myself constantly as well. Not the best mindset, but going at them with a "you're too critical of me and not yourself" sort of thing isn't always accurate.

    My aim
    My primary aim is have her become more aware of her own behaviour and observe how anger is being turned into frustration that is coming out as rude to others. The biggest blockers I have is;
    1. She re-directs conversations away from her and onto previous conversations, or how others are the problem (which from my pov, is not true), and - this is a time to be blunt, stop letting her change the conversation. If she's anything like me, it is probably just her mind jumping elsewhere in the same log of thought and you may need to redirect it.
    2. She is quite sensitive so a blunt approach can be met with hurt, anger and defensiveness. - Again, approach it like a school lesson. Hey, have you considered x or x? I have been thinking of it lately and....so on. It doesn't appear as an attack but E1 is usually someone that analyzes themselves deeply too...

    The question
    What would have been the most effective way to deal with you through problems when you were younger or less aware? Or if you've always been a vision of maturity what is the most effective approach based on your personal insight of your type? - I can tell you some things NOT TO DO:
    Don't yell at me, I will start crying and get really hurt
    Don't tell me super directly I've screwed up, listening to you will probably make me aware of it within myself
    Last resort: demonstrate it as a soft heart to heart with a friend, and compliment her to death while ripping her to shreds. with every insult remind her of something good about herself to try and make it less traumatic. XD I am speaking as an oversensitive E1.

    While you're at it, anything specific about frustrations about type 9 communication is also welcome. I'm pretty blunt for a 9 thanks to ma' wing, but I am still flavoured with a peace-loving-inner-hippy vibe. - My biggest struggle with E9 is they tend to try and avoid things until it gets really difficult to handle. Honestly, I'd rather know something is upsetting you upfront than hear 3 weeks later and be pissed cuz WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THAT EARLIER.

    I don't know if this helps but yea.. XD


    After all,
    How can you run from what is inside of you?

  6. #6
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The scenario
    I manage a 1 who is first and foremost a lovely person, they are also stressed and that stress comes out in an ugly, unaware manner that dismisses everyone else with an "I'm right, they're wrong" stance. They appear to exclude themselves from their criticism while being intolerant of others. They can make blanket black and white statements suggesting that everyone else is 'bad' in some way and they alone understand what is right and correct. The problem is driven from frustration more than anything but it's having a very negative impact and damaging relationships, a situation they are either unaware of, or do not care about.

    My aim
    My primary aim is have her become more aware of her own behaviour and observe how anger is being turned into frustration that is coming out as rude to others. The biggest blockers I have is;
    1. She re-directs conversations away from her and onto previous conversations, or how others are the problem (which from my pov, is not true), and
    2. She is quite sensitive so a blunt approach can be met with hurt, anger and defensiveness.
    That said, she does respect and trust me, so it's not all uphill.

    For the sake of her satisfaction, the relationships with those around her, and my need to set appropriate and consistent minimum standards, things need to improve.

    The question
    What would have been the most effective way to deal with you through problems when you were younger or less aware? Or if you've always been a vision of maturity what is the most effective approach based on your personal insight of your type?

    While you're at it, anything specific about frustrations about type 9 communication is also welcome. I'm pretty blunt for a 9 thanks to ma' wing, but I am still flavoured with a peace-loving-inner-hippy vibe.
    I'll throw in my two cents, but keep in mind that all I can really do is describe my own experience and hope that does approximate the experience of people who call themselves E1s.

    While this person may appear to exclude themselves from criticism, if they are a 1 they're probably criticizing themselves in their own minds constantly (though the precise criticisms applied may not be the same). This in turn also facilitates her sensitivity to criticism from others. Any criticism from another person can feel like rubbing in some painful criticism the 1 is already directing at herself, and in turn she might lash out at criticism in a way that appears inappropriate to outsider observers who have no way of knowing what's going on inside her head. But there are plenty of reasons that internal criticism is unlikely to be made visible to others. At times in my life, I've felt wrong about some things, but right about things I was struggling with people over, and there was a kind of fear that any focus on what I got wrong would unfairly undermine my clout in the struggle for the things I was right about, which made me highly averse to letting there be any attention on my failures. I personally (I assume other 1s, generally), also have an unspecific discomfort with being the focus, which I think exists with both egoistic and altruistic motives. If I've had an aim that I was very serious about, I have sometimes almost sublimated my being into it. I do not exist, I am not really the topic, I am a vessel for the aim. This can both be selflessly productive and also a convenient excuse for having no accountability. It really depends.

    And with regards to that kind of single-mindedness, I'd lean toward the "doesn't care" interpretation about damaging relationships. If she really thinks she's right and everyone else is wrong, she will be wholly unimpressed by any argument that she should change because relationships are being damaged. In fact, if there's one core piece of advice, it's that so long as she thinks she's on the right side of a dispute, her mind will be a flow chart where everything leads back to "I'm right". If you tell her she's being rude, she is going to think "but I'm still right". Any attempt at persuasion that sounds like it's making right and wrong a secondary issue is going to fail. I would go further and say that the less interested other people appear to be in doing what is right, the more galvanized she is going to become. I sometimes go into a mindset of "I guess it's all up to me" if it appears that I'm the only one with a sense of what's right, so I actually become more overbearing the less support I think I have (which can seem counterintuitive).

    And here in lies the really big challenge, I think. The more isolated she feels on this, the more obstinate she will be. However, if you think she is actually mistaken about things, providing support is tricky since you obviously don't want to provide endless support toward someone for getting things wrong. You need to alleviate all those aforementioned stressors without straying from the reality that you don't think she's doing everything right and something has to change.

    There aren't a lot of details about your scenario, so I don't have a good idea what is or isn't particularly viable for you. The first thing I'd say, as per the above, is to be very thorough in making clear that you are also concerned with doing things the right way and any suggestions you have are meant to work toward that. That might sound obvious to you, but it may not be as obvious as you think. Really contemplate your language on that front. Because, again, if it sounds like your are concerned with being rude as opposed to getting things right, that will be a nonstarter with her. And that's the kind of thing you might not normally even think about being implicitly conveyed in your language.

    Try to make suggestions in terms of doing things the best way, instead of the right way. I know I've spent all of this post stressing the focus on right, but when you as an outside party are giving criticism of her (as opposed to just stating your general objective), it probably behooves you to suggest what is best rather than what is right. This is because if you try to tell her the right way to do things, you're implicitly telling her she's been wrong up to this point, and that will make her much more defensive. Good, better, and best, are not nearly as threatening sounding ways to propose an alternative.

    If possible (and again, I don't really know if it is possible in your scenario), try to frame any criticisms you have in terms of inhibitions to her own sense of what is right.
    Say, hypothetically, she has been right and everyone else has been wrong about X. Even so, is she really going about this the best way to achieve what she thinks is right? Like, you see her goal (maybe you even can see you agree with it, if that's not too much of a stretch), but you think she can't really reach it unless she tries some other way. I think it's easier to convince a 1 that they are being self-defeating, or more accurately, sort of a "poor vessel" if you will, than it is to convince them that their idea is actually just the wrong one altogether and others have been right. Of course, you still want to exercise some delicacy about that, because saying that straight up can be really cutting to a 1 (because it actually speak to their concerns).

    So, speaking of delicacy, I guess I have a couple suggestions on that front. Try to find some area with which you can give her support that does not contradict your real criticism. I find an area where this is usually viable would be sincerity and effort. You can perhaps show appreciation and understanding for the fact that she really is honestly trying and investing in this. I know this can be rather annoying. It feels like someone is causing a problem you have to deal with, and they're wrong, and now you have to baby them or some shit? But I think gestures like this can go a long way in putting down the 1s defenses. You appreciate the good they've done, you respect their perspective, you understand. She can calm down.

    Lastly, this is kind of an overarching piece of advice for 1s anxieties in any situation. Assure them that this is not the end of the world. If she really is a 1, then it's almost guaranteed she has convinced herself more is riding on whatever she's complaining about than there really is. Be sure not to say this in a condescending way though, as if you're were saying she's freaking out over nothing. I think the real gist of it is more personal. You need to provide assurance that whatever happens, she's not bad or incompetent and that you will not look down on her. And interestingly, this concerns both how she feels about being told she's wrong, but also about how she feels about it turning out she's right. Because for a 1 (or at least me), if I gave in an listened to someone, and then everything fucks up, and it turns out I was right in the first place, that will make me feel just as bad, because I'll beat myself up for giving in and letting that happen. So basically, the point is that nobody is going to hate her if she's wrong, and the world isn't resting on her shoulders if it turns out she was right. It's okay.

    I don't know how useful any of that is, or if the 1s here even find any of the recognizable, but that's what I got out of trying to put myself in this situation with the info given.

    ---About 9s---

    I think when I analyzed my relationship to the types (in my own system that no one else uses), I concluded the 9 was the type I was third least like. So it could be worse, but it's not great. I mean no offense, but I will frame my type 9 interaction in the worst light so as to focus on what's wrong.

    At worst, 9s strike me as feckless and wishy-washy. I think they're dishonest and probably even in denial. They paint a false picture that conforms with their desire to not get into conflicts and to not pick sides. They make things seem more optimistic, reconcilable, and symmetrical than they really are. So for one thing, I don't feel like I trust the info I get from them, I suspect that it is misleadingly sanitized and organized. Secondly, I feel like they're dismissive toward my grievances if there's no way for them to address those grievances in a way that's inoffensive to everyone. Thirdly, I feel like 9s say a lot of things that are devoid of substance, because any real substance has to high a risk of causing conflict.

    I've not directly experienced this myself, but it is easy for me to imagine things getting awkward in a scenario in which a 9 is managing a 1. I feel like a 1, without even thinking about it, would overstep their bounds and attempting taking the 9s job.

    EDIT: Holy shit! I just noticed that EJCC's user title says "just a vessel".
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #7
    The Devil of TypoC EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Are ones generally aware of their sensitivity and the causes, or does it get re-framed into a view of being wronged/misunderstood/ect?
    I think most 1s know that they are very sensitive to criticism, and most 1s are harder on themselves than other people are on them. But I think it takes a lot of work for 1s - much like 2s ime - to actually hear criticism for what it is, without projecting their own unforgiving harshness onto the critic.

    I think that would be very effective, thanks.

    She wants me to be on her side and and is very self-driven when it comes to making up her mind, I cannot force her to change attitude or belief but she's smart enough to be able to see a contradiction if she has to analyse it herself. I also get the impression that if she saw a contradiction she would be unsatisfied and privately work on it.
    Np! She sounds like a great example of a moderately healthy 1 - embodying both the best and worst traits of the type. Hoping she’ll be receptive!

    Separate question: What Enneagram author in your opinion best explains the core motivations of a type 1?
    Good question - not sure. I like the new Chris Heuertz book. Richard Rohr is good because he’s a 1 himself, but he makes the puritan comparison a lot, which I hate.
    ”We know a little about a lot of things; just enough to make us dangerous.”

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