[Traditional Enneagram] Which eType is the most Manipulative?

[Mal12345]

I think it's the 6w7.

 

[Mesmeric_Moon]

They're all equally manipulative in their own unique way.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Manipulation as a trait is an indication of health.

 

[EJCC]

They're all equally manipulative in their own unique way.

Manipulation as a trait is an indication of health.

These.

 

[Qlip]

Manipulation as a trait is an indication of health.

The more healthy they are, the less you can notice they're manipulating you. Har har.

 

[Mayflower]

All can be manipulative but for the sake of entertainment, 2w3.

 

[Mal12345]

It sounds like, as usual, people are using their instincts and intuitions to respond because they lack clear definitions.

9 Classic Traits of Manipulative People | Psychology Today
1. Manipulative people either lack insight into how they engage others and create certain scenarios, or they truly believe that their way of handling a situation is the only way because it means that their needs are being met, and that's all that matters. Ultimately, all situations and relationships are about them, and what others think, feel, and want really doesn’t matter:

“Controllers, abusers, and manipulative people don’t question themselves. They don’t ask themselves if the problem is them. They always say the problem is someone else.” —Darlene Ouimet.

2. Manipulative people do not understand the concept of boundaries. They are relentless in the pursuit of what they want and have little regard for who gets hurt along the way.

Crowding into your space—physically, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually—is of no concern to them. They lack understanding about what personal space and identity mean, or just don't care. They can be likened to a parasite—in the natural world this is often an acceptable relationship. In human behavior, however, feeding off of someone at their expense is depleting, exhausting, weakening, and demeaning.

3. A manipulator avoids responsibilities for his own conduct by blaming others for causing it. It’s not that manipulative people don’t understand responsibility is. They do; a manipulative person just sees nothing wrong with refusing to take responsibility for their actions, even while making you take responsibility for yours. Ultimately they may try to get you to take responsibility for satisfying their needs, leaving no room for fulfilling yours.

4. Manipulative people prey on our sensibilities, emotional sensitivity, and especially conscientiousness. They know they have a good chance of hooking you into a relationship because you are a kind, feeling, caring person, and, of course, because you want to help. They may cater to your goodness and kindness at first, often praising you for the wonderful person you are. But over time, praise of these qualities will be minimized because you are being used in the service of someone who really doesn’t care about you. They really just care about what you can do for them.

5. If you want an easy way to discern manipulators from empathetic people, pay attention to the way they speak about others in relation to you. They will often talk about you behind your back the same way they talk to you about others. They are masters at “triangulation"—creating scenarios and dynamics that allow for intrigue, rivalry, and jealousy, and encourage and promote disharmony.

6. Never waste your time trying to explain who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you. If someone doesn’t get you, don’t hang around waiting until they do. Don’t make it your mission to get them to understand and like you—they’re not interested in you as a person.

7. Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words. Always remember that what a person says and does are two very separate things. Observe someone closely, without making excuses for them—usually what you see is what you get.

8. If the individual put as much effort into being a good person as they do into pretending to be one, they could actually be a good person.

This is an essential point: Our initial encounter and perception of someone strongly colors our developing relationship with them. If we understood from the beginning that a person is not who they seem to be, and is just hiding behind a facade of what appears to be socially acceptable behavior, then perhaps we would be more wary of getting involved with them.

9. Regularly examine what you believe. We don’t do this enough. As life progresses, our beliefs and attitudes may change, and we need to know how these changing ideas affect us. When we are not sure what we believe, it’s all too easy to allow someone else who is sure that their beliefs are right—not only for them but for you as well—to attempt to manipulate your thinking:

“When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts.” — Michael Ende

 

[Tilt]

In the classic narcissistic brand of manipulation, e3.

 

[Amargith]

It sounds like, as usual, people are using their instincts and intuitions to respond because they lack clear definitions. 9 Classic Traits of Manipulative People | Psychology Today 1. Manipulative people either lack insight into how they engage others and create certain scenarios, or they truly believe that their way of handling a situation is the only way because it means that their needs are being met, and that's all that matters. Ultimately, all situations and relationships are about them, and what others think, feel, and want really doesn't matter: "Controllers, abusers, and manipulative people don't question themselves. They don't ask themselves if the problem is them. They always say the problem is someone else." —Darlene Ouimet. 2. Manipulative people do not understand the concept of boundaries. They are relentless in the pursuit of what they want and have little regard for who gets hurt along the way. Crowding into your space—physically, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually—is of no concern to them. They lack understanding about what personal space and identity mean, or just don't care. They can be likened to a parasite—in the natural world this is often an acceptable relationship. In human behavior, however, feeding off of someone at their expense is depleting, exhausting, weakening, and demeaning. 3. A manipulator avoids responsibilities for his own conduct by blaming others for causing it. It's not that manipulative people don't understand responsibility is. They do; a manipulative person just sees nothing wrong with refusing to take responsibility for their actions, even while making you take responsibility for yours. Ultimately they may try to get you to take responsibility for satisfying their needs, leaving no room for fulfilling yours. 4. Manipulative people prey on our sensibilities, emotional sensitivity, and especially conscientiousness. They know they have a good chance of hooking you into a relationship because you are a kind, feeling, caring person, and, of course, because you want to help. They may cater to your goodness and kindness at first, often praising you for the wonderful person you are. But over time, praise of these qualities will be minimized because you are being used in the service of someone who really doesn't care about you. They really just care about what you can do for them. 5. If you want an easy way to discern manipulators from empathetic people, pay attention to the way they speak about others in relation to you. They will often talk about you behind your back the same way they talk to you about others. They are masters at "triangulation"—creating scenarios and dynamics that allow for intrigue, rivalry, and jealousy, and encourage and promote disharmony. 6. Never waste your time trying to explain who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you. If someone doesn't get you, don't hang around waiting until they do. Don't make it your mission to get them to understand and like you—they're not interested in you as a person. 7. Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words. Always remember that what a person says and does are two very separate things. Observe someone closely, without making excuses for them—usually what you see is what you get. 8. If the individual put as much effort into being a good person as they do into pretending to be one, they could actually be a good person. This is an essential point: Our initial encounter and perception of someone strongly colors our developing relationship with them. If we understood from the beginning that a person is not who they seem to be, and is just hiding behind a facade of what appears to be socially acceptable behavior, then perhaps we would be more wary of getting involved with them. 9. Regularly examine what you believe. We don't do this enough. As life progresses, our beliefs and attitudes may change, and we need to know how these changing ideas affect us. When we are not sure what we believe, it's all too easy to allow someone else who is sure that their beliefs are right—not only for them but for you as well—to attempt to manipulate your thinking: "When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts." — Michael Ende

It sounds like, as usual, people are using their instincts and intuitions to respond because they lack clear definitions. 9 Classic Traits of Manipulative People | Psychology Today 1. Manipulative people either lack insight into how they engage others and create certain scenarios, or they truly believe that their way of handling a situation is the only way because it means that their needs are being met, and that's all that matters. Ultimately, all situations and relationships are about them, and what others think, feel, and want really doesn't matter: "Controllers, abusers, and manipulative people don't question themselves. They don't ask themselves if the problem is them. They always say the problem is someone else." —Darlene Ouimet. 2. Manipulative people do not understand the concept of boundaries. They are relentless in the pursuit of what they want and have little regard for who gets hurt along the way. Crowding into your space—physically, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually—is of no concern to them. They lack understanding about what personal space and identity mean, or just don't care. They can be likened to a parasite—in the natural world this is often an acceptable relationship. In human behavior, however, feeding off of someone at their expense is depleting, exhausting, weakening, and demeaning. 3. A manipulator avoids responsibilities for his own conduct by blaming others for causing it. It's not that manipulative people don't understand responsibility is. They do; a manipulative person just sees nothing wrong with refusing to take responsibility for their actions, even while making you take responsibility for yours. Ultimately they may try to get you to take responsibility for satisfying their needs, leaving no room for fulfilling yours. 4. Manipulative people prey on our sensibilities, emotional sensitivity, and especially conscientiousness. They know they have a good chance of hooking you into a relationship because you are a kind, feeling, caring person, and, of course, because you want to help. They may cater to your goodness and kindness at first, often praising you for the wonderful person you are. But over time, praise of these qualities will be minimized because you are being used in the service of someone who really doesn't care about you. They really just care about what you can do for them. 5. If you want an easy way to discern manipulators from empathetic people, pay attention to the way they speak about others in relation to you. They will often talk about you behind your back the same way they talk to you about others. They are masters at "triangulation"—creating scenarios and dynamics that allow for intrigue, rivalry, and jealousy, and encourage and promote disharmony. 6. Never waste your time trying to explain who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you. If someone doesn't get you, don't hang around waiting until they do. Don't make it your mission to get them to understand and like you—they're not interested in you as a person. 7. Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words. Always remember that what a person says and does are two very separate things. Observe someone closely, without making excuses for them—usually what you see is what you get. 8. If the individual put as much effort into being a good person as they do into pretending to be one, they could actually be a good person. This is an essential point: Our initial encounter and perception of someone strongly colors our developing relationship with them. If we understood from the beginning that a person is not who they seem to be, and is just hiding behind a facade of what appears to be socially acceptable behavior, then perhaps we would be more wary of getting involved with them. 9. Regularly examine what you believe. We don't do this enough. As life progresses, our beliefs and attitudes may change, and we need to know how these changing ideas affect us. When we are not sure what we believe, it's all too easy to allow someone else who is sure that their beliefs are right—not only for them but for you as well—to attempt to manipulate your thinking: "When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts." — Michael Ende

Yeah...wayyyyyy too black and white.
not enough room for people still learning, trying and mastering skills and weaknessed.
The key difference is intention in all this, imho. Someone who is struggling with all these things but not succeeding yet at putting them to rest, vs domeone who has no intent on growing out of them.
Unfortunately treating the first like the latter becomes a self fulfilling prophesy all too oftrn, which then becomes self-rewarding behaviour meaning manipulation spreads like a virus to not just the struggling person but also the supposed victim in their 'see, see? I knew i was right!' victory lap

 

[Mal12345]

Yeah...wayyyyyy too black and white.
not enough room for people still learning, trying and mastering skills and weaknessed.
The key difference is intention in all this, imho. Someone who is struggling with all these things but not succeeding yet at putting them to rest, vs domeone who has no intent on growing out of them.
Unfortunately treating the first like the latter becomes a self fulfilling prophesy all too oftrn, which then becomes self-rewarding behaviour meaning manipulation spreads like a virus to not just the struggling person but also the supposed victim in their 'see, see? I knew i was right!' victory lap

Manipulative people are best described as those who are not struggling within themselves or to better themselves in some spiritual or psychological sense but are only struggling with others to get them to do what they want them to do. The methods of manipulation are either direct or indirect. Direct manipulation consists of using anger, blackmail, or bribery against another person. Indirect manipulating uses deceit such as lies and false promises against another person.

But yes, definitions tend to be black and white because they are definitions. Using definitions in a non-black-and-white sense is often manipulative because it involves some level of deceit. It means you're trying to foist over on someone meanings that change and switch up, an example being "moving the goalposts." Moving the Goalposts

 

[Mal12345]

In the classic narcissistic brand of manipulation, e3.

What's your etype?

 

[Tilt]

Best fit is 3w4.

 

[Mal12345]

Best fit is 3w4.

And probably ENTJ. So, are you a manipulator?

 

[Tilt]

And probably ENTJ. So, are you a manipulator?

Why do you say ENTJ? I guess so in certain ways but the stereotype of unhealthy e3s match up pretty well with narcissism characterizations.

 

[Mal12345]

Why do you say ENTJ? I guess so in certain ways but the stereotype of unhealthy e3s match up pretty well narcissistic characterizations.

Statistically, ENTJ corresponds with the 3w4.

There are different kinds of narcissism. And manipulation doesn't have to be narcissistic. I don't think there is a single etype that is narcissistic or manipulative, I just think that the 6w7 is the most manipulative.

 

[Tilt]

Statistically, ENTJ corresponds with the 3w4.

There are different kinds of narcissism. And manipulation doesn't have to be narcissistic. I don't think there is a single etype that is narcissistic or manipulative, I just think that the 6w7 is the most manipulative.

Ahhh This is just all pure speculation. And that's why I qualified the type of manipulation....

Most likely ENFJ for me.

 

[Mal12345]

Ahhh This is just all pure speculation. And that's why I qualified the type of manipulation....

Most likely ENFJ for me.

Consider the fact that even submitting to someone's will can be a form of manipulation.

 

[Tilt]

Consider the fact that even submitting to someone's will can be a form of manipulation.

I actually believe that any interaction one has with another living thing can be subject to manipulation. I just assumed that you were going for the more negative brand because you kept shooting down the other answers down based on the technicalities of the definition. I don't necessarily see 6w7 as any more manipulative as any other type.

 

[Mal12345]

I actually believe that any interaction one has with another living thing can be subject to manipulation. I just assumed that you were going for the more negative brand because you kept shooting the other answers down based on the technicalities of the definition. I don't necessarily see 6w7 as any more manipulative as any other type.

I didn't specifically target anybody's answer about manipulation, just the one regarding black-and-whites. And it is a fact that people come up with their own definitions of things by intuition which is a fuzzy, uncertain, and vaguely founded method. We don't do mathematics by intuition, at least not the more difficult problems. Finding two or more people who agree on the same intuition is likely to be difficult because it is so personal. We learn things by definition, not by intuition, and I want my threads to be educational.

Anyway, my 6w7 answer is an opinion as to which etype is the most manipulative. Saying that all types can be manipulative, for example, is a non-answer. All types also bleed red and poop brown, but manipulativeness is a trait most people have, or a method they use, to a degree.

 

[Tilt]

I didn't specifically target anybody's answer about manipulation, just the one regarding black-and-whites. And it is a fact that people come up with their own definitions of things by intuition which is a fuzzy, uncertain, and vaguely founded method. We don't do mathematics by intuition, at least not the more difficult problems. Finding two or more people who agree on the same intuition is likely to be difficult because it is so personal. We learn things by definition, not by intuition, and I want my threads to be educational.

Anyway, my 6w7 answer is an opinion as to which etype is the most manipulative. Saying that all types can be manipulative, for example, is a non-answer. All types also bleed red and poop brown, but manipulativeness is a trait most people have, or a method they use, to a degree.

But by what definition? What are your criteria? There are so many different tactics and aims for being manipulative.... subtle, overt, well-intentioned, subversive, maintaining power, gaining control, etc. That's my point.