[Traditional Enneagram] The 5 stereotype

[Adpako]

Is there someone out there who do not identify with the 5 stereotype? But still think they are a 5?

I am a little confused, because I do believe I am a 5w4, and I know that the 5w4 is not always as the 5 is described. But it still gets me feeling that I am not a 5, when I read about the 5. I know that other people would probably guess that I am a 9, because my head is always elsewhere, and I have no direction or energy to do stuff in life. I feel like I look like a 9 stereotype.

But then again, I know that I don’t sweep things under the rug, I think about them until my head explodes, and then I think about them more. And I am not that afraid of conflict, and I do get angry without feeling bad about it. I dont have the core issues of the 9.

I often experience nihilism, and feel empty, but i have read that both 9 and 5 can feel this. And I can choose to keep my bad feelings away most of the time, but sometimes I do choose to feel them all, so that I can maybe let them go, instead of always trying to understand them. I am not afraid of them, but I don’t want them to control me (even though sometimes they do).

But both 9 and 5 are withdrawn types, and they often choose not to feel(?), so that’s why its so hard for me to figure this out.

If I feel like I am a 9, but most of my thoughts work like a 5, what should I believe that I am?
Is there someone else who feel like they are a 5, but do not fit in to the type that is always described?

In a way, I feel like I am a 5 or 4 when I am sad, but when I am happy and balanced, I feel like I am a 9.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Have you taken any of the tests?

I'm not getting a sense of what you think the stereotype of the 5 is other than "no feelings" but many types do this and for different reasons.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

What is your greatest fear? The one that you don't wanna tell anyone about. You can rep your answer to me if you'd like, and I will PM you back with my thoughts.

Self-typing is a journey and it can take awhile to weave it together.

 

[Population: 1]

I’m 5w4 but the 4 is almost as strong as the five in the tests I’ve taken. I identify with fives knowledge seeking and detachment. I hate making mistakes and usually try going over my posts meticulously before posting and often going back to edit small errors. The 4 wing adds a level of emotional understanding and exploration but is tempered by 5 to be more of a clinical assessment of them. I empathize with people but seem to be able to keep a distance at the same time even while finding a way to comfort someone. I can form relationships with friends and yet even after years of knowing someone and sharing experiences with them I can walk away or drift from them. It’s not really intentional and not meant to hurt them but the tendency is always there. It’s like I have feelings for people but they’re wrapped in a sort of insulation that always keeps them from fully impacting me.

I’m not certain any of that was helpful but it’s part of how I feel and function as a 5w4.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I’m 5w4 but the 4 is almost as strong as the five in the tests I’ve taken. I identify with fives knowledge seeking and detachment. I hate making mistakes and usually try going over my posts meticulously before posting and often going back to edit small errors. The 4 wing adds a level of emotional understanding and exploration but is tempered by 5 to be more of a clinical assessment of them. I empathize with people but seem to be able to keep a distance at the same time even while finding a way to comfort someone. I can form relationships with friends and yet even after years of knowing someone and sharing experiences with them I can walk away or drift from them. It’s not really intentional and not meant to hurt them but the tendency is always there. It’s like I have feelings for people but they’re wrapped in a sort of insulation that always keeps them from fully impacting me.

I’m not certain any of that was helpful but it’s part of how I feel and function as a 5w4.

Just an FYI: This is exactly how I am. Sometimes it makes me feel cold. I think Sp 4 is sort of a different animal.

 

[Population: 1]

Just an FYI: This is exactly how I am. Sometimes it makes me feel cold. I think Sp 4 is sort of a different animal.

It’s a strange state, isn’t it? Warm but detached. Caring in a general sense but removed on a personal level.

 

[Yara the Corpse]

I relate to the 954, 549, 459 etc. tritype


I think 5 relates to my need to avoid too many obligations and wasting too much of myself on people. I need to be alone and observe from a distance and often find it difficult to participate on an individual level with others. I feel like, while I am very emotional sometimes, I need to remain objective for me to feel invulnerable. Now 5s are stereotypically seen as "knowledge hoarders and seekers" but personally I don't relate to that at all. I don't really have "knowledge" so much as observations and conclusions about things..

While I also relate to 4s need to be "saved" or needing attention, I find it difficult to accept failure and my own deficiencies, I hate being vulnerable and I have to savour my emotions on my own and not share them or else people will see too much of me for me to be comfortable. I much prefer an optimistic mindset and focus on what I can do than what is wrong with me.

And finally e9.... I guess I want to understand everyone and feel like I can relate to anyone and so don't really have a sense of impulsive/readily available morality that other people do... I love to ask questions towards people who are disagreeable to get to know them, and if they are hate fillied or morally disgusting by societal standards I'd still feel that I can't tell them how I feel about them. I always feel that my emotions can be held against me somehow.... I can't take pride or ownership of what I feel. At best i can say "you make me sick" or "you are annoying" but that's still not applying ethics thats more just how they make me feel.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

Is there someone out there who do not identify with the 5 stereotype? But still think they are a 5?

I am a little confused, because I do believe I am a 5w4, and I know that the 5w4 is not always as the 5 is described. But it still gets me feeling that I am not a 5, when I read about the 5. I know that other people would probably guess that I am a 9, because my head is always elsewhere, and I have no direction or energy to do stuff in life. I feel like I look like a 9 stereotype.

But then again, I know that I don’t sweep things under the rug, I think about them until my head explodes, and then I think about them more. And I am not that afraid of conflict, and I do get angry without feeling bad about it. I dont have the core issues of the 9.

I often experience nihilism, and feel empty, but i have read that both 9 and 5 can feel this. And I can choose to keep my bad feelings away most of the time, but sometimes I do choose to feel them all, so that I can maybe let them go, instead of always trying to understand them. I am not afraid of them, but I don’t want them to control me (even though sometimes they do).

But both 9 and 5 are withdrawn types, and they often choose not to feel(?), so that’s why its so hard for me to figure this out.

If I feel like I am a 9, but most of my thoughts work like a 5, what should I believe that I am?
Is there someone else who feel like they are a 5, but do not fit in to the type that is always described?

In a way, I feel like I am a 5 or 4 when I am sad, but when I am happy and balanced, I feel like I am a 9.

5w4 and 9w1 are fairly common mistypes, so it's no surprise that that seems to be the confusion. It's no help that 5w4 is probably one of the more common mistypes (outside of 4) and you have a lot of stuff floating around the internet that is skewed towards the perspective of another type. I was in the same boat for a while (except with 5w6 instead of 5w4) and ended up being a 9w1 (though 6w5 is my close second since 5 is still the type I relate to most), and you seem fairly well versed in enneagram, so perhaps I can help.

9 is in the optimism triad, but it doesn't sweep all its problems under the rug and, outside of the stereotype, not all 9s are afraid on conflict or feel bad about getting angry (though expressing this anger may be a different story). 9s may be somewhat passive in order to avoid conflict from many reasons, whether it be to maintain relationships, because a screaming match doesn't actually solve the problem, because they don't want to bring attention to themselves, ect ect ect. Of course some may fear conflict, but not all do. Personally, I don't, I just find it easier to deal with people/get them to do what I want if they're not pissed off at me. Going back to dealing with problems and negative emotions, assuming your correctly typed as an INFP, a 9 INFP is probably always going to think about their problems and feelings because that is the nature of Fi. Fi is introspective and usually not too afraid of its inner darkness, though as a 9 they might be one to think about their problems more than fix their problems.

Where I bolded in your paragraph is what makes me think that you might be a 9 rather than a 5. 5s, even 5w4s, intellectualize their emotions more often than not.

The last thing I noted in your description is that you "feel like I am a 5 or 4 when I am sad, but when I am happy and balanced, I feel like I am a 9." This is interesting, I sort of felt something similar. As 9w1 disintegrates, the 9 core will remain its withdrawn nature and disintegrate to a 6, a strong head type which is often mistaken for 5. The 1 wing will also disintegrate to 4, giving off an even stronger withdrawn tendency. As an INFP, it would make sense for you to relate to 4 stereotypes because most of them are written by Fi users (as Fi correlates with 4). A disintegrating 9w1 can appear 5w4-esque, especially amoung Fi users (or so I'd imagine).

 

[Adpako]

5w4 and 9w1 are fairly common mistypes, so it's no surprise that that seems to be the confusion. It's no help that 5w4 is probably one of the more common mistypes (outside of 4) and you have a lot of stuff floating around the internet that is skewed towards the perspective of another type. I was in the same boat for a while (except with 5w6 instead of 5w4) and ended up being a 9w1 (though 6w5 is my close second since 5 is still the type I relate to most), and you seem fairly well versed in enneagram, so perhaps I can help.

9 is in the optimism triad, but it doesn't sweep all its problems under the rug and, outside of the stereotype, not all 9s are afraid on conflict or feel bad about getting angry (though expressing this anger may be a different story). 9s may be somewhat passive in order to avoid conflict from many reasons, whether it be to maintain relationships, because a screaming match doesn't actually solve the problem, because they don't want to bring attention to themselves, ect ect ect. Of course some may fear conflict, but not all do. Personally, I don't, I just find it easier to deal with people/get them to do what I want if they're not pissed off at me. Going back to dealing with problems and negative emotions, assuming your correctly typed as an INFP, a 9 INFP is probably always going to think about their problems and feelings because that is the nature of Fi. Fi is introspective and usually not too afraid of its inner darkness, though as a 9 they might be one to think about their problems more than fix their problems.

Where I bolded in your paragraph is what makes me think that you might be a 9 rather than a 5. 5s, even 5w4s, intellectualize their emotions more often than not.

The last thing I noted in your description is that you "feel like I am a 5 or 4 when I am sad, but when I am happy and balanced, I feel like I am a 9." This is interesting, I sort of felt something similar. As 9w1 disintegrates, the 9 core will remain its withdrawn nature and disintegrate to a 6, a strong head type which is often mistaken for 5. The 1 wing will also disintegrate to 4, giving off an even stronger withdrawn tendency. As an INFP, it would make sense for you to relate to 4 stereotypes because most of them are written by Fi users (as Fi correlates with 4). A disintegrating 9w1 can appear 5w4-esque, especially amoung Fi users (or so I'd imagine).

Thank you for your answer!

I agree more now that I might be a type 9, but there is something I feel doesn’t add up. It looks like you know what you are talking about, so I hope you don’t mind answering more of my many questions!

(and btw, what I meant about “instead of always trying to understand them”, is that I always do try to understand them, I always try to figure out why I feel this way, if it is “right” to feel this way, if the feeling is real or fake, if it is okay for me to feel this, and so on. I always try to figure out the feelings I have. But yes, maybe this is because I am a INFP.)

I also think a lot about image and identity. For me it seems like nines don’t really think about identity.
The concept of merging with someone else is a concept that scares the shit out of me, because if I do do that without knowing, that means that I am not MYSELF. I care a lot about having my OWN thoughts, and that the things I say are original, and typical ME. I need to feel like my own person.

Identity has been a problem for me for the most part of my life. When I was younger, I tried to fit myself into my favourite characters in movies. Taking the qualities I liked, and added them to myself. I was constructing myself. I needed to feel like this persona I wanted to be. I have always been concerned about my image, much like fours do. I dress the way I dress to get a message across of who I might be, depending on my sense of self at that moment/period. And I have noticed that throughout my life, I have appreciated the things that differs me from others. I like feeling different, but different in a good way.

This in the four I identify with A LOT! And the first time I read about four, I was SURE I was a four. But my brother really didn’t believe I was a four, because he believes I am in the head triad, because of all my anxieties growing up, and because I always mention things I have been thinking about. Because I do think a lot about things. Others would call me an over-thinker, but I think my thoughts are interesting and valid.

I just don’t get how I can be a 9, when I have been really concerned about my image since I was around 14.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Any type can have an abundance of thought or anxiety. The triggers for anxiety will vary though.

For example, 4 So can have a lot of social anxiety because their concern revolves around image and where they stand in comparison to the group.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

Thank you for your answer!

I agree more now that I might be a type 9, but there is something I feel doesn’t add up. It looks like you know what you are talking about, so I hope you don’t mind answering more of my many questions!

(and btw, what I meant about “instead of always trying to understand them”, is that I always do try to understand them, I always try to figure out why I feel this way, if it is “right” to feel this way, if the feeling is real or fake, if it is okay for me to feel this, and so on. I always try to figure out the feelings I have. But yes, maybe this is because I am a INFP.)

Yeah that does sound Fi-esque, also somewhat like the social instinct.

I also think a lot about image and identity. For me it seems like nines don’t really think about identity.
The concept of merging with someone else is a concept that scares the shit out of me, because if I do do that without knowing, that means that I am not MYSELF. I care a lot about having my OWN thoughts, and that the things I say are original, and typical ME. I need to feel like my own person.

I understand what you mean, it's sort of give or take depending on what mbti/tritype your combining the 9 core with. 9 FPs, especially those with SO, will be focused on having a distinct/identifiable identity and image. Most other mbti types combined with 9 won't (unless there is the presence of SO), so it's not usually put inside the descriptions. A while ago, I was provided with a resource that discussed how 9 IxFPs often struggled to type as 9 or typed as Fe users and it covers this really well. I wish I archived my resources, if I can find that I might share it here. Even if you don't end up being a type 9 INFP, I feel like it would still be helpful to others in similar situations. Personally, I also find the idea of merging to be terrifying as well (for different reasons though), though the way you describe it here sounds like you have both 9 and 4 within your tritype.

Identity has been a problem for me for the most part of my life. When I was younger, I tried to fit myself into my favourite characters in movies. Taking the qualities I liked, and added them to myself. I was constructing myself. I needed to feel like this persona I wanted to be. I have always been concerned about my image, much like fours do. I dress the way I dress to get a message across of who I might be, depending on my sense of self at that moment/period. And I have noticed that throughout my life, I have appreciated the things that differs me from others. I like feeling different, but different in a good way.

Ah, I see now. This is how a lot of people view 4s but it's actually quite the opposite. 4s feel and unconsciously find comfort in being different from others, but they do see being different in a positive light. 4s "sin" is envy, envy because they don't fit in, because it is their differences which make them flawed/deficient/disadvantaged. What you describe here, constructing an image, is almost the opposite of 4 (but very Fi SO). This comes across like the "merging" that you'd find within 9s, but I could always be wrong.

This in the four I identify with A LOT! And the first time I read about four, I was SURE I was a four. But my brother really didn’t believe I was a four, because he believes I am in the head triad, because of all my anxieties growing up, and because I always mention things I have been thinking about. Because I do think a lot about things. Others would call me an over-thinker, but I think my thoughts are interesting and valid.

I just don’t get how I can be a 9, when I have been really concerned about my image since I was around 14.

I had that dilemma too. [MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION] made a really good point. Anxiety is the key component of the head types, though many types can run high on anxiety depending on their environment and other reasons. To me, you sound like a 9w1 4w5 hwh SO from this alone

 

[Adpako]

Yeah that does sound Fi-esque, also somewhat like the social instinct.

I understand what you mean, it's sort of give or take depending on what mbti/tritype your combining the 9 core with. 9 FPs, especially those with SO, will be focused on having a distinct/identifiable identity and image. Most other mbti types combined with 9 won't (unless there is the presence of SO), so it's not usually put inside the descriptions. A while ago, I was provided with a resource that discussed how 9 IxFPs often struggled to type as 9 or typed as Fe users and it covers this really well. I wish I archived my resources, if I can find that I might share it here. Even if you don't end up being a type 9 INFP, I feel like it would still be helpful to others in similar situations. Personally, I also find the idea of merging to be terrifying as well (for different reasons though), though the way you describe it here sounds like you have both 9 and 4 within your tritype.

Ah, I see now. This is how a lot of people view 4s but it's actually quite the opposite. 4s feel and unconsciously find comfort in being different from others, but they do see being different in a positive light. 4s "sin" is envy, envy because they don't fit in, because it is their differences which make them flawed/deficient/disadvantaged. What you describe here, constructing an image, is almost the opposite of 4 (but very Fi SO). This comes across like the "merging" that you'd find within 9s, but I could always be wrong.

I had that dilemma too. [MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION] made a really good point. Anxiety is the key component of the head types, though many types can run high on anxiety depending on their environment and other reasons. To me, you sound like a 9w1 4w5 hwh SO from this alone

Thank you so much, this helped me a lot! The Meyers Briggs and the instincts do play a big role then, I’m going to read much more about that! This with identity has been my biggest concern about identifying as a 9, but now that’s much clearer. I am going to read more about the 9 now, thank you for answering me so precisely ^^ Really appreciate it.