[Traditional Enneagram] INFJs 4s are a lot different to Fi dom 4s?

[bundleofsunshine]

A lot of INFJ 4s seem to think they're 2s cause they don't like the stereotypes that surround being a 4 like being self-centred. I have also noticed that 4 INFJs can sometimes try to fit in as opposed to a 4 Fi dom practically if they're a 4w3 INFJ.

 

[thoughtlost]

I think INFJ (or maybe just Fe???) 4s are different in the sense that they probably do seem like other types at first. I know a 4 that was once labeled as 9 at first. But then as they trust you and you get them talking, then their arrogance/socially critical nature will pop out. That same 4 is seen as a 2 (a shy, non-imposing but helpful 2), but people who do not see the arrogance. Turns out that the person was just an INFJ ..so that's what makes them seem 9ish or 2ish. The INFJ 4 won't desire to express themselves in extreme ways (they are very socially conscious/have a strong spotlight effect-complex thingy). They don't desire to do anything extravagant (they are not a Johnny Depp level of 4).

They are a 4, so they are still self-centered (doesn't matter what MBTI type maybe???). But it's not obvious.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Seem more likely to have a 3 wing and be social subtypes.
Stuff gets attributed to Fi that is really e4 and it applies equally well to INFJ 4s, IMO.
A lot of INFJs may not own up to being self-centered, but they may be. That's not a Fi thing at all.
INFPs are often more aware of their own emotional motivations and can have extremely high ideals, making them cop to being self-centered even if it's in a normal degree, i.e. most people are that self-centered if not worse.

 

[21%]

Fe and 4-ness is a fun mix, speaking from experience, of course

You try so hard to please, so hard to fit in, but at the same time you know you're not selfless, and you struggle to be you, and you deal with the guilt, and with feeling phony, and with all that destructive and horrible but yet awesome things in your turbulent internal world while projecting a sense of having it all together (so the people around you won't panic).

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I'm INFJ, 4 with a 3 wing...

I've never thought of myself as anything but a 4; 2 is not something I relate to much at all. I went back and forth between a 3 and a 5 wing. The 3 descriptions were so dramatic so it threw me off at first, but the core motivations of the 4w3 are very much me. I'm pretty introspective and can be self-indulgent as far as understanding myself but I'm more other-centered than self-centered. I could, however, see others viewing me as another type (whether Enneatype or MBTI) because a lot of myself isn't shown outwardly and what is can be contradictory.

 

[Hiraeth]

INFJ 4s can come off very Fi-like actually. The 4 gives their Fe a Fi flavor that can make them appear like an IxFP at times. However, the Fe function would make them more agreeable in a 9ish way than dauntless and overly distant like some e4 Fi types can be. In general, 4s are a very introspective type, so these INFJs in particular would appear a little more inward than others of the same type with a different enneagram core.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Enneagram 4 and dom/aux Fe are an odd combination indeed, although I have never once mistaken myself for a core 2.

The thing about being a core 4 and a high Fe-user is that you tend to use your Fe differently than other NFJs. There are two major differences between introverted and extroverted feeling - Whose feelings you are focused on, and how you express your own feelings. Fi users will focus on themselves over others and also tend to hold their feelings under wraps a bit more. Fe users tend to focus on the feelings of others and tend to express their own feelings more outwardly. I think what happens with a 4 Fe user is that they prefer to focus on themselves, much like an Fi user, but they express their feelings more readily. I think for this reason, Fe 4s tend to look more dramatic/loud than Fi 4s.

This is a type that presents with striking differences based on instinctual stacking. I would imagine an Fe 4 Sp to present much more like and NFP than an NFJ at first and even second glance. An Fe 4 Sx would present much more "in your face" than an NFP and could easily be mistaken for a 7 or 8, or having a 3-wing when they actually have a 5-wing, or even being an extrovert if INFJ. An Fe 4 Soc would look less Fi-ish and would be more consciously aware of the rift between their Fi behavior and their Fe desires, and they would feel ashamed about it. Soc would be the most likely to sacrifice their wants for others. The other two would be more stubborn or finicky.

The NFJ 4 Sx is a... uh... "complex" personality and not always fun to deal with. You will hear about what bothers them, but they'll probably hold it in longer than they should because that Fe holds them back a bit. Sx/Sp is the most likely to have feelings bubbling and boiling over seemingly out of the blue, sometimes for the most trivial shit (like getting unreasonably mad at their phone when they try to text something 3 times and typos keep happening).

 

[thoughtlost]

I think I am in agreement with Peter about aux Fe...

How I understand Fe is this: Fe focuses on what is around them (in terms of people). It notices the mood/opinion/feeling of another (or group of people doesn't matter ...it's any and all humans that are are not them). Fe users vary in the levels of expressiveness because it all depends on the environment around them; that is what they focus on. They can either be not expressive because they are aware that it isn't an appropriate time to express their real feelings and harmony between two or more people and themselves matter more. Or they are expressive (and they are still conscious about how others are perceiving them) and they are aware of how they are impacting the environment/people around them.

Note: when I say conscious, I don't mean shy. I just mean that an aux Fe person is always aware of how they are coming across and how others are coming across.

An Fe aux 4 that has a social instinct will actually look super Fe (because ...they are). There is no rift between Fi behavior. It's just that they spend a lot of time thinking about what others are doing in relation to them (everyone expects me to be X way or everyone else is shallow). It seems like Fi because of people's misunderstanding of it. However, it's the clearest example of aux Fe I've ever seen in real life. It's because they are SO focused on what others are doing/what the social norm is that they can't even begin to understand themselves unless it's in relation/comparison to others.

It's when the other instincts dominant in a 4 ...that's when you get a less Fe 4 (if they are actually an Fe dom/aux).

However, I don't think Fe users are necessarily more expressive. I think both types (Fe and Fi) can be expressive or not expressive, but for different mentalities. These two functions really can look alike on the surface.... even if one person is a 4 Fe and the other person is a 9 Fi, but really these two types are so different internally.

It's just that Fi doesn't have the awareness that Fe has. Fe "sees" all. It is aware of the energy at a party (and how they may or may not fit in with it). They are aware of what's popular. They may not go along with it ...but they are HIGHLY aware of it. Fi doesn't have an awareness of that. Fi does focus on the self that way.

Fi focuses on their own internal/emotional worlds. Fi users focus on the internal landscape of an individual. It doesn't need to be communicated with external expressions of what they are feeling. So I wouldn't call Fi individualistic... it's just more ...hidden I guess??

Of course being an intuitive vs. sensor will modify how both Fi and Fe are in a person and the position. So far, my post has been about aux Fe. A dom Fe user is focused on establishing the emotional tone that they want. They are less in the observer role and more in the driver's seat. And I've found ExFPs to be a bit more individualistic than Fi doms. Idk could be wrong, but it's what I think.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

You are always so eloquent [MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION]. I have a tendency to blurt my thoughts out without fine tuning the language or even the concept. I think you describe true Fi and Fe better than I do at times. And you are right about the constant comparisons to others and using them as a reference point for oneself for Fe 4s.

But I do feel confused about one thing: Are Fi dom/aux really that unaware of the moods of others, or the opinions others have of them? Can they really spend time with a group of people and not gather clues about the impressions others are forming of them? Or the feelings unmentioned but still shown subtly? (maybe the latter is Ni)

 

[thoughtlost]

You are always so eloquent [MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION]. I have a tendency to blurt my thoughts out without fine tuning the language or even the concept. I think you describe true Fi and Fe better than I do at times. And you are right about the constant comparisons to others and using them as a reference point for oneself for Fe 4s.

But I do feel confused about one thing: Are Fi dom/aux really that unaware of the moods of others, or the opinions others have of them? Can they really spend time with a group of people and not gather clues about the impressions others are forming of them? Or the feelings unmentioned but still shown subtly? (maybe the latter is Ni)

If you're interacting with me, I will pay attention to your emotions; I am aware of an individual's feelings. I am a 9 after all. I don't want to say anything mean or hurtful to others and I want be considerate to others. I can even joke around. So I look like an Fe user. But, unlike an Fe user, I am not thinking "Oh, I am not like everyone else... what must people think of me?" Some Fe auxes will do annoying things just to see people's reaction, as that entertains them. I've never done that ...like ever. I am not a jokester/prankster/troll.


Fe is the function of communication. They can flirt with you even if they don't genuinely like you, just for the dynamic is creates between people; and they are aware of what they are doing. But they don't expect other people to take them seriously because there is no "real" feeling backing it up.

Fi people ...aren't necessarily trying to communicate with you in that way. I am unaware of what impact I am having. And that also means that I can express myself too honestly without realizing how I am affecting others. I won't exactly realize that people are flirting with me or just how people are perceiving me. It sort of makes me uncomfortable to think such thoughts and I sort of just ignore it sometimes. I prefer to ignore it because it helps me just be comfortable socializing with others and moving about in the world.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

If you're interacting with me, I will pay attention to your emotions; I am aware of an individual's feelings. I am a 9 after all. I don't want to say anything mean or hurtful to others and I want be considerate to others. I can even joke around. So I look like an Fe user. But, unlike an Fe user, I am not thinking "Oh, I am not like everyone else... what must people think of me?" Some Fe auxes will do annoying things just to see people's reaction, as that entertains them. I've never done that ...like ever. I am not a jokester/prankster/troll.


Fe is the function of communication. They can flirt with you even if they don't genuinely like you, just for the dynamic is creates between people; and they are aware of what they are doing. But they don't expect other people to take them seriously because there is no "real" feeling backing it up.

Fi people ...aren't necessarily trying to communicate with you in that way. I am unaware of what impact I am having. And that also means that I can express myself too honestly without realizing how I am affecting others. I won't exactly realize that people are flirting with me or just how people are perceiving me. It sort of makes me uncomfortable to think such thoughts and I sort of just ignore it sometimes. I prefer to ignore it because it helps me just be comfortable socializing with others and moving about in the world.

That makes a lot of sense. The only thing I would add is that all 4s, by nature, compare themselves to others in some manner. There is always an acknowledgement of being different or divided (individual). It's just that the approach or angle will vary based on Fe vs Fi and the instinctual stack.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Just for the record, it's exactly that^ kind of conversation about Fe/Fi that - if I were new to typology - would convince me I was a Fi type person. I relate far, far more to how Fi is described above.

As far as the difference where e4 is concerned though, I think e4 INFJ and e4 INFP are more alike than not. I think e4 itself is so NF-y that a lot of INFs who are actually another enneatype identify as e4 on default - the way a lot of INTPs incorrectly identify as e5.

 

[bundleofsunshine]

Woo thanks for the responses, guys. I was expecting this thread to be one of those threads that wouldn't get any responses.

 

[thoughtlost]

Just for the record, it's exactly that^ kind of conversation about Fe/Fi that - if I were new to typology - would convince me I was a Fi type person. I relate far, far more to how Fi is described above.

As far as the difference where e4 is concerned though, I think e4 INFJ and e4 INFP are more alike than not. I think e4 itself is so NF-y that a lot of INFs who are actually another enneatype identify as e4 on default - the way a lot of INTPs incorrectly identify as e5.

Well, keep in mind that my observations are analyzed through a socionics lens. I know it's not the same system, but I like it as my starting place for Fe vs. Fi. I don't think that this should be thrown away just because it doesn't match every individual who may use Fe in some capacity. I won't agree with someone who doesn't think that this is a part of how Fe operates.

I'm aware that this isn't the "distilled" (meaning pure version) of what Fe is, though. My understanding isn't perfect because the person I am basing my understanding of Fe on is a social 4 or a social 6 (but they personally identify with this concept of Fe). The person I am basing my understanding on may even be ISFJ, and not an INFJ. In other words, my understanding of Fe - aux is extremely social-variant influenced and might even be xSFJ (vs. NFJ) influenced. So someone who is Fe-aux and not social 4 or 6 won't relate to my description.

It would be ideal to rethink this definition of Fe and attempt to establish a "pure" understanding of it (free from enneagram and other influences), but that's hard to do (it's harder for people to conceptualize in a concrete way). Still, for theoretical purposes, it can/should be done. I am all anyone who wants to refine this understanding of Fe, as I am aware that it doesn't fit well with all forms that Fe can take.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I think what happens with a 4 Fe user is that they prefer to focus on themselves, much like an Fi user, but they express their feelings more readily. I think for this reason, Fe 4s tend to look more dramatic/loud than Fi 4s.

This is a type that presents with striking differences based on instinctual stacking. I would imagine an Fe 4 Sp to present much more like and NFP than an NFJ at first and even second glance. An Fe 4 Sx would present much more "in your face" than an NFP and could easily be mistaken for a 7 or 8, or having a 3-wing when they actually have a 5-wing, or even being an extrovert if INFJ.

Yes, this sounds more like me; people can sometimes perceive me as more assertive/aggressive (i.e. 8). I'm pretty blunt. I am aware of others' feelings but I consider getting the point across and having some understanding is worth the friction being direct might cause. On the other hand, people (those not into MBTI) often believe I am extroverted. I can appear to come alive in interactions with people because of my strong sx instinct combined with Fe, which is the only "visible" function.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Just for the record, it's exactly that^ kind of conversation about Fe/Fi that - if I were new to typology - would convince me I was a Fi type person. I relate far, far more to how Fi is described above.

Well, keep in mind that my observations are analyzed through a socionics lens. I know it's not the same system, but I like it as my starting place for Fe vs. Fi. I don't think that this should be thrown away just because it doesn't match every individual who may use Fe in some capacity. I won't agree with someone who doesn't think that this is a part of how Fe operates.

I'm aware that this isn't the "distilled" (meaning pure version) of what Fe is, though. My understanding isn't perfect because the person I am basing my understanding of Fe on is a social 4 or a social 6 (but they personally identify with this concept of Fe). The person I am basing my understanding on may even be ISFJ, and not an INFJ. In other words, my understanding of Fe - aux is extremely social-variant influenced and might even be xSFJ (vs. NFJ) influenced. So someone who is Fe-aux and not social 4 or 6 won't relate to my description.

It may also have to do with the fact that INFJs are introverted intuitive doms and not feeling doms? As introverted intuitives, INFJs aren't necessarily naturally adept at dealing with the outside world of social interaction in this way. We're inwardly focused and the present-time world of people and things is not our bent as Se inferiors. I don't have any official stats and I'm unsure if I've met a fellow INFJ in person yet but from those online I would say social instinct is not as common as self-preservational or sexual instinct first. They would be so very different from a social ISFJ or ESFJ.

Personally, I'm far better with one-on-one interaction and I can be pretty oblivious to group dynamics in real time (although I always try to "sniff out" the overall group dynamics initially). Being aware of how things work is a bit different from putting what you know into practice...As far as there being no real feeling behind the Fe interaction, I don't relate at all. How and when I'm interacting with someone it is authentic and not simply for its sake.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

First of all, I've been in a lot of physical pain this week - if my tone is or was curmudgeonly, it's more about that than anything else.

That being said, I didn't really want to go on a point-by-point analysis of everything I disagreed with (about the first bunch of posts) because it's actually already been said in past discussions in this forum, ad nauseum. It's not just my experience that doesn't jive with the usual Fe conceptions - this discussion has happened many times, and I've lost all motivation to keep articulating why aspects of it don't make sense. But I do feel compelled to at least state, for the record, where some Fe/Fi distinctions are posted that run contrary to my experience. (Because if no opposition is stated at all, then incorrect distinctions can congeal and become 'common knowledge').

It may also have to do with the fact that INFJs are introverted intuitive doms and not feeling doms?

Yeah, if the discussion is going to be about INFJ 4s and INFPs 4 specifically, then it makes far more sense to compare Fi with Ni, instead of Fe.

Both Fi and Ni doms typically feel an urgency to stay authentic/true to self, but I think the criteria for authenticity is a bit different for each. There is a "right now" immediacy for Fi that Ni tends not to prioritize, while Ni(Fe) tends to need a certain amount of consistency to consider anything truly authentic. Both tend to (at least, if past conflict in this forum is any indication) find the other's criteria unsatisfying and constraining.

But other than that, I do think INF 4s are more alike than not.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Yes, this sounds more like me; people can sometimes perceive me as more assertive/aggressive (i.e. 8). I'm pretty blunt. I am aware of others' feelings but I consider getting the point across and having some understanding is worth the friction being direct might cause. On the other hand, people (those not into MBTI) often believe I am extroverted. I can appear to come alive in interactions with people because of my strong sx instinct combined with Fe, which is the only "visible" function.

Sweet baby jeezus, say it again for the people in back. I am so tired of arguing certain aspects of my personality to others simply because I am capable of having a strong presence when I so choose. In reality, I am so introverted that it's painful, I just often appear otherwise because I like stimulation and novelty and attention. I am most certainly not always this way though... I am either "on" or "off." There is no in between really.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

It may also have to do with the fact that INFJs are introverted intuitive doms and not feeling doms? As introverted intuitives, INFJs aren't necessarily naturally adept at dealing with the outside world of social interaction in this way. We're inwardly focused and the present-time world of people and things is not our bent as Se inferiors. I don't have any official stats and I'm unsure if I've met a fellow INFJ in person yet but from those online I would say social instinct is not as common as self-preservational or sexual instinct first. They would be so very different from a social ISFJ or ESFJ.

Personally, I'm far better with one-on-one interaction and I can be pretty oblivious to group dynamics in real time (although I always try to "sniff out" the overall group dynamics initially). Being aware of how things work is a bit different from putting what you know into practice...As far as there being no real feeling behind the Fe interaction, I don't relate at all. How and when I'm interacting with someone it is authentic and not simply for its sake.

Sx/So is allegedly the least common stack for 4s, btw. And Sx with a somewhat deficient secondary Sp is often mistaken as Sx/So.

 

[Zeego]

But other than that, I do think INF 4s are more alike than not.

I think people tend to generalize J/P counterpart types as more different from each other than they actually are because "all the functions are different" when in reality their behavior can be quite similar, especially when the Enneagram type is the same.