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[Traditional Enneagram] Sexual 4s

hjgbujhghg

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I feel like there is a lot of bias about sx 4s and sx first in general. I've been having trouble relating to those and I used to type as so first for that reason, but when I look at the core of sx fixation it seems to be more true than the so one.
I wonder how other sexual 4s feel about the description of this type. How much do you relate? How much do you agree/disagree with it? The same question for other sx types.

In my understanding sexual instinct is all about intimacy, it doesn't have to be a sexual intimacy, it can be emotional, ideological, spiritual etc. Sx types are hyper aware of the energy that they share with people, how good/bad it is, how much the person/object makes them feel, what it makes them feel and how much they wish to get closer to it or further away from it. So it's all about attraction vs. repultion from the object or the person they deal with. Again it doesn't have be anythin physical.
Their emotional energy is intense and focused. Instead of relating to everyone, they chose someone or something special, that gives them the feeling of intensity they long to feel. They chose carefully who that will be and share their energy with that uniqe persona or an object, instead of spreading it everywhere like so people do.

I think this is about everything that needs to be said about sexual types. Everything else is nonsense. Desciprtion that tell you that they are more active, assertive or dominant than other types are wrong. I mean... what does have your own activity have to do with it? I just see no point in connecting it. Jealousy, competetiveness, envy etc... wrong again imo, not an sx thing.

Would anyone agree?
 

thoughtlost

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I agree that the sexual variant isn't well understood. It places too much emphasis on the sphere of romance (jealousy and possessiveness within a relationship) ...which is not what the variant is about. Any variant can be jealous/possessive in a relationship or even want to be in a passionate romance-blah-blah.

Your description of SX actually sounds like Fi in socionics. But at the same time, I don't disagree with you. I agree that it has nothing to do with being active/dominant or competitive (Unless you're a 3 or something). I think sexual dominants can be more in touch with their feelings (I consider desire a feeling ...so maybe that is why they call sx e4s lustful??? I know a social 4 and she tends to minimize her needs around others and doesn't feel like she has much internal drive like "other people" seem to have ...you know when you're a social 4 when you keep on referencing what societal norms are and that you can't be normal like everyone else). A sexual 4 isn't really considered too much (maybe a little?? on being a hipster and simply more focused on filling the void of not feeling loved (I guess??)

A sexual 9 is more in touch with their lack of identity (and the emotions it stirs withing them). and a sexual 2 is more in touch with the idea of being loved/desired.

I do think that envy/jealousy can be a part of sx, though, but it isn't the core. so for a sx 9, they can be so in touch with their lack of personal identity that anything that touches upon that can ignite powerful, negative emotions ...and envy and jealousy can be a couple of those emotions.

I'll have to think more about the other types, but that's my understanding so far.

edit:: OOOHHHHH and a sexual dominant variant doesn't necessarily mean that you only want one person to share feelings with (again, this is where people mistype because they think that if you prefer one-to-one interactions, then you're sx dominant). SX-dom (to me) just means that you're deeply in touch/driven by your core type's trap in an emotional way.
 

hjgbujhghg

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edit:: OOOHHHHH and a sexual dominant variant doesn't necessarily mean that you only want one person to share feelings with (again, this is where people mistype because they think that if you prefer one-to-one interactions, then you're sx dominant). SX-dom (to me) just means that you're deeply in touch/driven by your core type's trap in an emotional way.

I'd disagree with this... Sx is about intimacy. I see instinctual variants as directions of energy. Energy of an sp goes inward, on the self, survivor, interior, sx energy is intense, it goes outside but doesn't spread further than the object of intimacy, so energy is the widest and spreads the most to the exterior, to others, goes beyond the self is the most out there of all three.
 

OrangeAppled

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The sexual instinct on its own will likely be very relatable to most fours. The sx four is like an extreme version of the issues an sx type faces. It certainly may be related to intimacy (although I agree with the idea that self-preservation is about intimacy also...because you can't be intimate with others if you aren't in touch with your own interior, a frustration self-pres last types may face), but when given primary focus, it is distorted. It's also about attraction (which yes, overlaps with some of the social instinct), which is why all sexual types can focus on being beautiful and/or strong, which is exemplified most with 6s or 3s. They also tend to be fickle, IMO, as they may like the initial high from connecting with or attracting someone, and so they may struggle with true intimacy which is often built over time and not constantly exciting.

Sexual fours are often presented as being very competitive, but in my observation, fours aren't typically the most outwardly competitive type regardless of their instinctual stacking. So it has to be viewed more abstractedly, IMO. If you compete, there is a sense of scarcity, a sense of "if you win, then I lose", etc. All of this is about the four's sense of something missing, particularly something within themselves that keeps them from...whatever it is they think will complete them, which is often related to the instincts. The problem is I've yet to meet a four who DOESNT have some savior fantasy, of healing via a relationship, etc. Or at least I haven't met one who isn't fixated on romantic intimacy as the path to salvation at some point in their life.

So what's the difference between a sexual four and any four who is probably fixated on intimate connections and their inner lack that is preventing them from feeling significant to someone?
Well, the competitive aspect gets heightened. In sexual fours this is often said to lead to hatefulness. Basically the sexual four is the angriest, most spiteful four. The thing is, it's probably largely unconscious for them. Sometimes it may be directed at something unrelated, just generalized anger, or it may be focused on a particular person. So in the abstract they place their own significance in competition with that of others and are angry when not responded to as they feel they should be.

I've heard that sexual fours may even feel resentment towards the one they want to be intimate with, aka, they put themselves in competition with them. They may put the other on such a pedestal that they almost come to resent them, because they feel lesser in comparison. Then they may try to make that person feel less significant, out of spite.

Personally when it came it my own sexual instinct, the envy aspect is rather yucky for me to admit. I have always scorned competitive attitudes as being beneath me. However, looking back I can see how I experienced the connections of others as some kind of loss for myself. If my good friend made another friend, it was like I was not as much her friend now. There is a hyper focus on exclusivity perhaps to a degree that it stems from jealousy and insecurity. I had a bit of sibling rivalry with my sister. Basically I wanted to be the favorite with certain individuals but unlike social fours, I had no concern over a wider popularity, not even from a dismissive or critical stance. I identify as self-pres first though, which may be why I found it harder to see this in myself.

Although again I see that desire to be the favorite with most fours and even most image types. Supposedly sx fours actually lash out when they aren't the favorite, whereas an sp four may silently endure (patiently waiting out the other person's inevitable screw up and plodding along as the extraordinary individual who someday will be rightfully acknowledged as such) and a so four may complain with an elitist attitude (ugh, this person is mundane; why others so fascinated by them?). The lashing out of the sexual four often sabotages them, which is a theme for all fours being the masochistic type. The endurance of the self-pres four can end up prolonging the undesirable state instead of bringing reward for their patience and the complaining or elitist critical attitude of the social four can damage their image.

But sexual fours are often demanding, so they move towards the rejection instead of dismissing it as a defense.
All sexual types may have a moth to flame quality and with fours this means moving towards rejection, as it's masochistic and reinforces their fixation with being insignificant. So sx fours demand the affections and attentions and position of "favorite" with a particular person, and they may even put themselves in competition with the person they want. This of course pushes people away, which may make the sexual four lash out angrily even more.

Example...say a four is infatuated romantically with someone. The person doesn't seem to reciprocate.
All fours will feel some sting that this is commentary on their defectiveness - what is wrong with me?
Then their instincts kick in to color their ego defense.

Social four - they aren't appreciated because the masses have horrible taste. It's almost a compliment to be rejected. They will direct their scorned energy at forming a dismissive and critical towards anything that rejects them or which they think does. Their anger may seem whiny or highly critical with an intellectual or elitist bent. They want to get close to people but create very difficult criteria as a defense. If someone doesn't have their taste level or deeper interests, etc, then they don't want to bother. They don't feel appreciated because they feel too different, but they also don't appreciate that which is not their own style.

Self-pres four - they feel they aren't noticed by others because they aren't obnoxiously demanding attention like everyone else because they don't need validation. What they do themselves proves their significance (i.e. perhaps what the create, even if it's just a lifestyle or personal image). They don't need anyone, so if they want someone, then that person should be flattered. They will sit back and wait for the object of their obsession to realize they are the ONE. They will torture themselves with fantasies they suspect won't ever happen. They build up anger over having been patient and independent and not being rewarded with the object of their desire, but this anger is more of a simmering brooding. They actually want intimacy very much, but find this needy and think that admitting it will actually repulse people. They try to attract by being aloof but also interesting - people must go to them and win them over, but meanwhile, they may obsess over certain people in secret. Outwardly, it can look like they don't care which repels people instead of attracting them.

Sexual - they may put someone on a pedestal and become angry because they feel they don't compare. They may also want to knock the person off the pedestal by getting closer to them and possessing their affections. They idolize people and hate them at the same time. When the person doesn't respond as they'd like, they lash out angrily, wanting to hurt the person in the same way they perceive they've been hurt. If the person responds as they want, they may actually grow bored, as being masochistic fours, deep down they actually boost their ego fixation through feelings of rejection. These fours may focus on the qualities the person has that they don't, feeling inferior but perhaps seeing "getting" that person as a sign that they have equal significance. Often if they get close enough, then they get disillusioned by the person and then seek to cut them down to sizes as a kind of payback for the suffering they experienced when infatuated. Sexual fours can demanding, vindictive and fickle, and their competition plays out more often with the object of their desire, not with someone else over that person. Fickleness (I love you - no I hate you!) is one indicator the sexual instinct is at play, IMO.
 

thoughtlost

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I'd disagree with this... Sx is about intimacy. I see instinctual variants as directions of energy. Energy of an sp goes inward, on the self, survivor, interior, sx energy is intense, it goes outside but doesn't spread further than the object of intimacy, so energy is the widest and spreads the most to the exterior, to others, goes beyond the self is the most out there of all three.

I guess I just disagree with the idea that intimacy is the core of the sexual variant because I don't know how to apply it to other enneagram types. It works well for image types, but it doesn't work well for ...say an enneagram 1 or even a 6 or 7. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by intimacy, though. Maybe you don't mean intimacy with another person, but intimacy with a deeper part of the sx-individual (which what I agree with). So for a sx-4 ...then that means intimacy with their sense of inferiority (and this is what I meant in my first comment to the thread).

I really like the post made by [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]


All E4s want (or can want) intimacy from another individual, and all 4s generally expect to be rejected (not get what the intimacy/not appreciated for who they are). In the end, the E4 is ALWAYS rejected. A social 4 criticizes the cultural/societal forces that led them to be rejected and typically sound holier than thou about it (meaning, most their thoughts are about judging the collective other or simply claiming how they cannot be like others). Even as they ask “what’s wrong with me??” the answer always goes back to “oh, I am better/different than 95% of the population and I am seeking something deeper/more intimate than what others can offer …so therefore I suffer”. I mean, they have been typed as very elitist …so it makes sense that social 4s respond this way. Social 4s can enjoy short, fun romantic flings and sexual encounters, but the focus of their suffering is on how they don't fit into the norm.

I am really interested in what Orangeappled said about the sexual-4. This is exactly what I was trying to get at (I know, it sounds like a cop-out/cheating or something to say that someone else’s words is what I meant). These 4s are deeply in touch with the sense of being defective/not good enough. A social and SP-4 isn’t going to look up to another individual and think “he/she is more significant than I am” although that is the CORE of being a 4 (which is the feeling of not being significant/worthy of love). A sexual 4 experiences that intensely and acutely while the social-4 puts THEMSELVES upon a pedestal (the social 4 is thinking “everyone is so shallow” and the only way to be accepted is to stoop to their level and be unhappy forever!) and the sp-4 is just more nonchalant about it. They all experience the same feeling, but for the sexual 4 …it’s not hidden behind a feeling of being different from the majority or feigned aloofness.

In fact, I MIGHT relate to [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] description of a sx-4. I often put others on a pedestal and then come to resent them. I definitely have an inferiority complex (meaning that I pay a lot of attention to how another person, usually my closest/best friend, is better than me in some way). In high school, I lost a best friend that way. I was always looking to prove to myself that they didn't appreciate me. I would give them the cold shoulder or start verbal arguments with them. I am experiencing a similar thing right now (but with a different person, of course).
 

kikimora

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I think intimacy and Fi are more like sp in Feeling Center and in close relationships in general. ;) sx is more about rivalisation and possesion providing an intimacy. Sexual Fours are combination of sweetness and anger; they have a strong energy that makes them lovely and repelling at the same time. There is a desire for being noticed, an inner scream "Look at me!" and anger caused by being flawed and really or potentially rejected. sx is more about "being noticed by senpai" or "being loved by the truest" which contains an element of intrusiveness.

thoughtlost said:
In fact, I MIGHT relate to @OrangeAppled description of a sx-4. I often put others on a pedestal and then come to resent them. I definitely have an inferiority complex (meaning that I pay a lot of attention to how another person, usually my closest/best friend, is better than me in some way). In high school, I lost a best friend that way. I was always looking to prove to myself that they didn't appreciate me. I would give them the cold shoulder or start verbal arguments with them. I am experiencing a similar thing right now (but with a different person, of course).

Sometimes I love to long for a person that has something that I feel always lacked - which means I'd like to be close with them or just feel their energy. This description souds like very good synthesis of pure Four and sexual features.
 

brainheart

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I'm a sx/sp 4w5 INFP 459, so there is a lot about me that is introverted and withdrawn. I balk at much of the Bea Chestnut and Naranjo descriptions of sexual four because I sure as hell would never mistake myself for an eight and I don't feel like I get a lot of insight about myself from their descriptions. That said, I very much relate to the idea of wanting something or someone so intensely that you actively sabotage it- how does Naranjo put this, something along the lines of you want someone so badly that you basically do everything in your power to make them reject you- (orangeappled also describes this well, as per usual). This can happen in relationships and it can also happen in the realm of career. I may work very hard at something for months only to set fire to it or completely abandon it. I am off/on, hot/cold, full/empty. I think that's the strongest distinction of the sexual instinct in any enneagram type: We are inconsistent and if something loses its luster we really struggle with keeping it going. My self pres instinct sort of helps me with this. As I get older I am increasingly recognizing the need for stability and some sort of routine, but it's always hard, keeping at something when it's no longer exciting.

Too often sexual instinct is phrased as one-to-one, and while intimacy is part of it, it's primarily about getting a rush, a thrill, a charge (a surge of dopamine?). I suspect that if someone doesn't like the name sexual instinct and prefers one-to-one, they aren't sexual instinct first. They're describing something else.

PS to OP: I don't think sexual doms choose their interests carefully. That sounds like self pres to me. Sexual instinct is completely irrational and often a poor decision. The interest chooses us and we are helpless in our blind following of it. That's how addictions work.
 

cascadeco

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I'm a sx/sp 4w5 INFP 459, so there is a lot about me that is introverted and withdrawn. I balk at much of the Bea Chestnut and Naranjo descriptions of sexual four because I sure as hell would never mistake myself for an eight and I don't feel like I get a lot of insight about myself from their descriptions. That said, I very much relate to the idea of wanting something or someone so intensely that you actively sabotage it- how does Naranjo put this, something along the lines of you want someone so badly that you basically do everything in your power to make them reject you- (orangeappled also describes this well, as per usual). This can happen in relationships and it can also happen in the realm of career. I may work very hard at something for months only to set fire to it or completely abandon it. I am off/on, hot/cold, full/empty. I think that's the strongest distinction of the sexual instinct in any enneagram type: We are inconsistent and if something loses its luster we really struggle with keeping it going. My self pres instinct sort of helps me with this. As I get older I am increasingly recognizing the need for stability and some sort of routine, but it's always hard, keeping at something when it's no longer exciting.

Too often sexual instinct is phrased as one-to-one, and while intimacy is part of it, it's primarily about getting a rush, a thrill, a charge (a surge of dopamine?). I suspect that if someone doesn't like the name sexual instinct and prefers one-to-one, they aren't sexual instinct first. They're describing something else.

PS to OP: I don't think sexual doms choose their interests carefully. That sounds like self pres to me. Sexual instinct is completely irrational and often a poor decision. The interest chooses us and we are helpless in our blind following of it. That's how addictions work.

This is super interesting to me, and I think if more people understood sx in this sense vs the 'omg intimacy 1:1 only' element of it, there would be fewer people identifying with sx in general, and even sx-dom. I appreciate how you are not glorifying it (not that everyone does, as that isn't the case, but I often see anyone who doesn't identify with 'groups' as identifying with sx as the alternative. Heck, I don't identify with groups, and I am probably not so-last.)

I can actually relate to some of what you are describing here, but would have to think a lot more on whether it applies to me in a dom/aux sense or not. I can struggle with what to do once 'excitement' and inspiration is no longer present, but I'm not sure if that is sx or something else in my makeup. In reading OA's post, I don't think I struggle with sx-4 issues, but anyway, I understand what you're saying here and appreciate your writing it! :yes:
 

brainheart

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Thanks. Yes, I think there can be a lot of overtyping of sexual instinct due to it being put out there as a desire for intimacy. My guess is desires for intimacy transcend the sexual instinct (especially in fours).

If there is any type I find myself envying or idealizing, it's the self pres four because of their tenacity and endurance. When I look at the artists and writers I most admire, they seem to be self pres fours. My guess is the second instinct in our stack is the one we look toward for balance and aspiration. It's like how we'd like to be (and how we can be if we work at it) vs how we inherently are.

In relation to MBTI, as an INFP, I think my use of Fi+Ne operates in a sexual instinct way. This, of course, can be healthy or unhealthy. Healthy sexual instinct engenders the rush of being alive, tapping into the electricity that can run through everything, the power of inspiration and possibilities. Unhealthy sexual instinct is never satisfied and never willing to do the real work. My sexual instinct feels childish, both the wide-eyed wonder that childhood contains (the upside), and the indulgent temper tantrums and inconstancy (the downside). My guess is sexual dom INFPs see a lot of themselves in ENFP descriptions. I know I do, despite being an obvious introvert. There is a strong connection to Ne.

Fi+Si seems more self pres within me- sticking to the routines and behaviors which will lead to holding on to the things (and people) that matter to me. My guess is self-pres dom fours are more likely to identify with the descriptions of Fi-Si loops, and the idea that they need to tap into their Ne more to get out of their ruts. Conversely, as a sx/sp four, I think my Si operates more like a parent. It can either be a helpful guide that nudges me toward consistent effort and healthy behavior (upside) or it can become overprotective and micromanaging, or even worse, totally negligent and absent (downside).

Social instinct, as my least instinct, really seems to connect to inferior Te for me. It's this critical judging that I am often oblivious to but will out of nowhere on occasion unleash its fury and I feel the weight of my lack of accomplishments, my lack of impact on the external world. It's like this giant wave which smashes my boat, breaks my bones, and then is just as quickly gone. Next thing I know I'm on land, the sun is shining, my injuries are healing, and again I'm just as oblivious to it as I was before.

Of course, these are all my personal theories/perceptions, so it might not jive with others' experiences.

PS: One thing I meant to add was that when it comes to the Naranjo/Chestnut descriptions of the subtypes it's all relative. In other words, yes, I am probably more visibly opinionated and assertive-seeming than other INFPs, especially INFP 459s. I probably complain more, express my anger/annoyance more. I'm a fairly expressive person. I can't exactly hide my emotional reactions. And so in that way the sexual four description fits.
 

Venus Rose

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I feel like there is a lot of bias about sx 4s and sx first in general. I've been having trouble relating to those and I used to type as so first for that reason, but when I look at the core of sx fixation it seems to be more true than the so one.
I wonder how other sexual 4s feel about the description of this type. How much do you relate? How much do you agree/disagree with it? The same question for other sx types.
I have said this elsewhere too, but I will say it again, I am this variant and I do NOT relate to the description (of sx 4). There are a few things here and there in some description, that at least try to steer a bit further than where Naranjo aimed originally, and there are some things I can connect with. I also get super irritated with "but anyone can do this and that" as at least in my case there's no effort being made to actually understand me, but instead being undermined and things being projected onto me to try to disprove me.

Anyways, for me personally, I can mention how sx+4 has manifested in my life. There is an *extreme* neurosis around attraction, and that translates into wanting to be "loved" as I have always phrased it. And not being loved by anyone, but by a romantic other. I quite literally do not care about others kinds of love, and that speaks to the neurosis of the primary instinct. I have tended to put all my energy and focus into someone I was attracted to, become obsessed relatively quickly, and it was worse in my adolescence. By obsessed I mean I would...for instance, be anxious about my texts being seen and/or responded to - all day, several days long - and I have barely started talking to this person. In my mind I was already "addicted" and it would cause painful anxious feelings of "he will realize I am actually gross/ugly/repulsive at my core" that no one could possibly be in love with me. And it's not about "love" since that sounds like a bit of a soft thing here, but being in love, having that kind of magnetic power over someone, they meaning as much to you as you do to them.

I did not believe that was ever possible because at my core I was hideously unattractive. That is how I felt, and it causes serious psychological harm, that kind of self-belief. From feeling pain to even terror - if he didn't seem that interested in responding to me, or talking to me in general, or if I even detected (and it is very easy to detect attraction) that he was attracted to someone else. I do not use the word "terror" lightly either; yes I would become enamored with someone, idealize the hell out of them, pouring all my hope into this one person, that finally "I will be loved," and at the same time this deadly anxiety at my core, that I was well, too repulsive at my core for anyone to ever fall in love with me.

This would lead to wanting to contact this person even further, I am forgetting the details at this point to be honest, but this would cause me to be more self-revealing, making that pain of rejection even harder to bear, because here I am making myself naked and the other person is not into me. It was terrifying. I could have been drawn to situations that reinforced my self-belief though, that there's something inherently wrong with me. I would not say I was drawn to "bad people" as indeed most of them were kind and good people, but the commonality they shared was that they were not that into me. For decade on and off this would happen, and I just assumed there was something horrendously repulsive at my core for me to be so "hideously unattractive."

Suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, self-harm, including carving "UGLY" onto my thigh, addiction to smoking cigarettes, losing touch with reality via dissociation (I did not ever become psychotic though), feeling like I could be losing my mind, constant terror, pain and terror. For years and years on end - a decade now. But the very fact that I am able to talk about this means that its getting better.

I would somehow manage to so intense that it would put them off, and they became even less likely to want to be intimate with me. Not that it mattered since I was fixated several times on guys that did not see me the way I saw them. Eventually they would give up, distance themselves.

In relationships with some of these friends (as indeed that's all they were) where I had gotten very close, I could get reactive, pointedly expressing that I feel like they see me (the way I actually see myself, as gross and repulsive - I did not use those words though, but basically projected my own self-loathing onto them), they would try to reassure me that there's nothing wrong with me, but none of it stuck, because in that moment it was clear to me that if they were not attracted to my vulnerable and naked self their words were meaningless and "not authentic" or true (not that they weren't being authentic, more so I saw it as something cliché to try to make me feel better, but I "saw through the bullshit"). Hurt some of them unintentionally because I would spiral, afraid and scared. One of the absolute worst fears of <anytime sx instinct comes into play> is to make yourself naked (metaphorically) to someone who just doesn't find you attractive. Of course, I would go a little beyond that as I was "hideous" instead of the more neutral stance of "these specific people did not find me attractive." But if that gets repeated over an over again, for years and years, it can really traumatize, specially if sx is your primary instinct. Every single moment of something like that was terror-inducing for me, crying, dissociation, pain where I felt like I was pinned to my bed and kind of like my limbs were being stretched out in this awfully painful way, general fear and anxiety around this stuff, etc. And then that adds up and eventually the psyche can only take so much, you know.

EDIT: I did NOT try to harm them intentionally and I quite literally do not understand what professional competition has to do with sx 4. It sounds so...random, and I don't relate to it as I don't really care. I do not see myself as a competitive person, and though I would *lash out* (again I am forgetting the details about exactly what I would say) when I felt rejected, it was not from a place of entitlement, or feeling superior or something, I was legitimately terrified that I am sexually (both metaphorically and literally) and romantically repulsive. That I did not have any power to attract who I wanted, but instead scared them away, or worse, had an opposite effect to "magnetically luring them in." That I repelled them. I could not fully piece together these thoughts because they were seriously jarring for me, hence why in the past I resorted to suicidal ideation because they were soothing to me in those moments.

I don't think I believe this about myself anymore though.

Anyways - I am also not more 8 than 8, even at my most vulnerable, even though I "lash out" due to terror (edit: I may - untentionally - hurt someone due to my pointed and intense emotions evolving from this core fear that I was repulsive, instead of through intense anger). I am still relatively soft, probably the strong secondary E9 coming into play there. I have never tried to compete with people, and though I experience really intense jealousy wrt attractions, I do not feel that kind of jealousy outside of the realm. And even then, I may lash out about how I feel like they do not care about me, and how I am repulsive at my core, I do not even attempt to "compete," (I acquiesce to these feelings of inner ugliness instead, and indulge the Soc side of my sx/so in "lamenting" about these painful and raw experiences; also in order to gather some support) as in my mind I have already lost to begin with (nor do I care about competition). And yes, I am Se PoLR. That plays a HUGE role. Not all subtypes look the same, there can be quite a variation.
 

uncrowned

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5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Venus Rose, I can relate to a lot of what you said and it scares me a little. I had an episode lately that resulted in behavior I'm not very proud of. I'm E5 sx-first but with a wing of 4, so I suspect that may be one reason why it's not as intense as you describe + with lots of paranoia mixed in about the other person plotting against me (unhealthy 5 behavior from what I've read).

It... sucks. It's exhausting. I've tried to deny the "sx" in me so I can feel a semblance of normalcy or at least non-neuroticism and average health, to no avail. I can't trick myself out of it, it runs in my blood so to speak.

How are you doing lately? And what has made you improve?

For me, I can detect the pattern early — the moment I start obsessing I'm like "here we go, put on your seatbelt". So at least in this latest episode, I was conscious of what was happening although out-of-control at the same time. I tried to devalue that person in my mind so there is a balance somewhere, with the intention of seeing them "whole" rather than an idealized version of them. What ended up happening is this intense inner conflict and the infamous push-pull, rather than a holistic healthy image of said person, which I berate myself over: really, they're only a human being! But why can I not see them that way? It is something in my unconscious and I will get to the root of it.

So then I decided... f**k it! I'll expose myself and my ugliness on purpose because I knew this was futile as the person is unavailable (there is a pattern there that you can relate to as well, they're "not into me", either taken, emotionally unavailable, etc). So I did it, I figuratively undressed myself in front of them, but it wasn't like a big reveal... it was this huge inner shift, contained, and quietly explosive. But very obvious to anyone paying attention (most people don't). They definitely detected a change and actually started to pay more attention to me, not because I'm such an interesting person but because wtf is going on? My natural magnetism and friendliness was replaced by this intense frustration at myself, others, my life, reality itself. It was so painful for me because it was SO contained that it was destroying me from the inside. I did it to myself because for me, usually, when I go through this type of inner conflict, there is a truth there that emerges in the end. And I want to know what that is, almost masochistically. After the frustration passed, a deep inner sadness emerged. And then a black vortex of nothingness. Of pure end-of-the-line apathy, of psychologically being stripped of everything. I felt nothing anymore. Like actual nothing. I went home that day and had a panic attack. Then I was sick for a week, drowning in pain and some of the most intense shame I've ever experienced.

I can see you're sx/so, I am sx/sp. So I don't know how much any of this helps or resonates, if at all. There is a description of the sx/sp stack with a statement that stands out so much to me in terms of what I experienced:

Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious.

I feel like this is exactly what happened to me. The 'truth' that emerged from it all is that I'm seeking for something in myself or in my life by obsessing over these people. They're like a distraction almost. And they're wrong for me, I know how to pick them so that maximum projection occurs, i.e. I never really know them that well, so it's easy to put them on a pedestal based on first impressions, projecting many positive things onto them. The attraction is real, I don't want to downplay or deny that. But the fixation is not reality-based.

Now I could be wrong, but the way I see it unfolding is the sx-firsts are more healthy when their dominant instinct is tempered by developing their blind spot. Does this mean we won't idealize partners when we're healthier? I doubt it, I think some idealization is a good thing even. But the obsession? Yeah... no. I need to do something meaningful in my life that I can call mine, focus my intensity in that work.

I'm interested to know more about what these episodes mean and why sx is damn annoying! And how to make it better. Hopefully others can chime in.

Ugh, sorry, this thread is about 4s. But I really could relate.
 

Luminous

༻✧✧༺
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
10,235
MBTI Type
Iᑎᖴᑭ
Enneagram
952
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
[MENTION=28353]uncrowned[/MENTION] There is a thread for sx doms... Sexual / Intimate First Support Group

I've also heard that strengthening the blind spot is supposed to help create more balance. I'm also sx/sp. So we need to strengthen our so, which we might do (I'm saying all this, though it's not as if I've actually completely successfully done it nor am I expert in it) by going toward the brighter light, the sunshine, of broader connections. Forcing ourselves to make more connections with others who may not appeal as strongly to the sx beast.
 

uncrowned

New member
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Messages
9
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Ah, thank you. I shall continue there. :bye:
 
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