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[Traditional Enneagram] Help Me Imagine the Image

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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Yes, precisely. My image is basically second nature to me. I use it to shield others from seeing my deepest vulnerabilities. The only way I really understood the mechanisms of my behavior was through 1000s of hours of introspection and the constant feedback loop from others. The persona was so ingrained into my subconscious, I struggled a lot in settling on a type for several years. I actually looked down on e3 for YEARS. Ha (in part due to being resentful and furious at a couple e3 EXFJ older males who I have since made up with).


3s are so awesome they need someone looking down on them in order to maintain balance across the space-time continuum.



When I first started this thread I actually wasn't sure whether or not an image was used the same way for the same reasons by the 3 types or not. I had broken it down both ways in my mind...but imagined it would be best to assume that all things image were a constant across the types <-until OA picked up on that and set me straight.

Now that I'm on the other side I can say that I have never encountered an e3 image that I experienced poorly... and now feel comfortable concluding they are designed with a shared purpose in mind and come with an invitation (<-of course certain expressions of e2 image will freak me as an e7 out because I immediately know I'm going to be required to do something and there's a wrong way of doing it.)


What you are describing sounds like the way I clean my home for company. I quickly take all the mess...and all shit I don't want my company to see that would leave questions marks above their heads...like a book on astrology...or like if I had some kind of itch cream or something like that you know...and I throw all that shit into the back room and close the door. Now I'm ready to focus strictly on entertaining without worrying that co-workers with a science background are thinking "dude that's so fucked-up that Starry's into Astrology"...and I know that no one is going to be killed tripping over the badminton racket and pile of laundry that had been right in the middle of the living room floor previously. I don't throw everything in the back room so I look good alone. I throw everything into the back room so my guests make it home alive as well (it is equally for their benefit.)

Even in the most outrageous/diva expressions...Prince, Madonna, Oprah...there really is this understanding that the image has been constructed with 'other' in mind for facilitation of some purpose/a job to be done together. I love it.
 

Qlip

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Hah, much like your 2's, 3's are the type that I have immediate problems with and terrible reactions to. My 4 immediately is offended by the typical style of image gap they tend towards when unhealthy, especially men: braggy, insecurely competitive, self aggrandizing and sycophantic. I like to think of the unhealthy male 3 as the faux 8.
 

Starry

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Hah, much like your 2's, 3's are the type that I have immediate problems with and terrible reactions to. My 4 immediately is offended by the typical style of image gap they tend towards when unhealthy, especially men: braggy, insecurely competitive, self aggrandizing and sycophantic. I like to think of the unhealthy male 3 as the faux 8.


Nice! See if I've seen it I didn't know what I was looking at. So (bare with because I recently realized I really don't get this) in those cases has the 3 stepped into something a little on the dirty defense attorney/used car salesman side of things because that's the design they want for X purpose and in their minds no ones creeped out by it? Or is that 3s insecurities messing with an image that should be expressing with a little more sophistication?
 

Giggly

No moss growing on me
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I have no idea, lol.

Am I supposed to be the type that does this? I don't know what it is. :huh:
 

chubber

failed poetry slam career
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IDK, because it is similar to how all types will deal with fear & anxiety like head types or all types may have anger issues like gut types.
It helps to remember that image types are heart types, and it's about personal values or fundamental human emotional/relational needs. Every type arguably has an image that their ego projects and seeks to protect. It helps to remember that image types are heart types, and it's about personal values. So while, say, an 8 may seek to glorify themselves to maintain an image which protects their power, image types actually are really in touch with the core value behind everything. A 2 is in touch with the fundamental need of humans to feel connected and loved and they know were interdependent. When their image is threatened, it is questioning that value and/or that the value is their ultimate motivation. I suppose being an image type, I have a particular empathy for this, as it's not about particular goal so much as upholding a deeper value.

It's not a coincidence to me that most image/heart types have a feeling preference. 2 types are most frequently ExFJs with some ExFPs & occasionally ISFJs. 4s are almost always NFs and sometimes ISFPs. 3s are the only ones who are often Ts, but they are the heart type most out of touch with their heart. They have an issue of untangling objective goals with personal values, but the one value they tend to be very in touch with is independence (opposite of 2 - a truth that we need to have individual achievement and purpose in life), and so they seek to validate themselves through what they do, not directly from people (much more T mentality - tasks/objects above people). Obviously, 4s are in touch with a need for personal significance or having meaning in life.

Competitiveness in an image type is often from a scarcity mindset. It's not that they need to be the best, it's more that they fear that there basically isn't enough love to go around. I suppose the tl;dr explanation is that the motivation is different - image types are motivated by "heart needs".




I had a feeling you probably talking about enneagram 2s, but I'm glad I waited for you to basically confirm that.

I had thought about that being case, and thought how it typically plays out. Let me know if any of this rings a bell...

2s have a vice of pride. This frustrates their ultimate goal - which is to feel loved, because they fear they aren't lovable and they really hit on a core image type fear - there isn't enough love/meaning/value in the world to go around. It's scarce, and we must be very good or nearly perfect to "win" it, hence the formation of an ideal image that the person feels they must live up to get love or have human value or find meaning.

The 2 pride means they not only build up an image of being really loving, giving, sexy, fun, etc, but they do so to attract love. The problem is, their pride keeps them from accepting the love which puts them in a vicious cycle. They have built up this image of not needing (because of shame over it) and overflowing with virtuous & lovable qualities themselves, and on some level they know that giving to get is not true generosity (that's a crack in their ideal image). But other people can see it. We know what they are doing. And so we want to give them what they need, out of compassion. Here, they may seem to flip the script because they can't accept what they need. Accepting what they need oddly threatens their image - it triggers their pride.

If they are a lower functioning 2, then they can get almost angry if you try to give to them. I have experienced 2s snubbing when you attempt to give to them - they get kind of elitist (I don't need anything from someone like you) or they become critical in some way. Other times, the 2 rejects what you give because on some level, they know it's giving to their image - they had to "earn" it and it reminds them of that. This is often when they criticize it as "not enough". They also get amnesia over what they received or what others do for others, but they clearly remember everything they did for you & others. This looks like ungratefulness on their part and like they are constantly being critical and judgmental of others (and how reflective of inferior Ti is this? this is probably more specifically ExFJ 2 than simply 2). That definitely leaves you on eggshells and drains people and pushes people away. Then they complain they aren't appreciated.*

When 2s complain about how ungenerous others are, it looks like they want people to be more like them (or how they see/present themselves). So you can adjust to their values...and then they get threatened by you. Because when they were complaining, they were winning. They were at the top. But when you come in and are just as kind or sexy or whatever, now they have to top you! You are threatening them, and they feel threatened because if love is scarce, then they have to compete for it.

I had an ESFP 2 friend who is major one-upper. I almost think she doesn't want you to do too much for her (deep down because she more consciously resents others not giving as much as she thinks she does), because then it raises the bar for what she has to do to be the MOST.
2s often like to give to people who will boost their image more than give back, if they are not very developed. Obviously, healthier 2s learn to accept graciously and genuinely love seeing others give and receive too (because love is no longer seen as a scarce commodity to them).

*This is a side point since sx 2s often don't see themselves as 2s - sx 2s primarily "give" by embodying the fantasy partner of someone else. That's why I throw in words like "sexy" and "fun" along with "giving". They may drop people once they've "seduced" them because they can't deal with a real relationship where they actually accept love from someone. They see themselves as a prize, even as they chase others as their prize. That may become confusing if they intensely pursue people (even friends) and then seem to lose interest once they "get" you (these are most likely to mistype as 7s or 4s, IMO & more likely to be ExFP 2s). I haven't experienced a "flip of the script" with these types, unless it's that they suddenly want you to chase them (?). I suspect the unhealthy ones have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style.

I suspect for an sx 2, suggesting they are an "ordinary type" like an ESFJ is a threat to their image of being seductively appealing. There's a unique factor which will appeal to them, whereas an ESFJ sounds like a mother hen. Unlike 4s, their sense of uniqueness not built on a feeling of defectiveness, but they want to stand out and capture attention. They also may want to be everything to everyone and fit the social romantic ideal. The ENFP prototype is a more romantic image than the ESFJ prototype, and it is associated more with adaptability and spontaneity, things which really appeal to a 2's image (because they feel like this overflowing energy that is whatever people need). Romantic comedies are chock full of ESFJ characters who are the People's ENFP. The female leads have it together and are often super ideal, except they have these little quirks that are supposed to be endearing.

So ENFP comes to represent their ideal image, even if that's not what ENFP actually means. They likely reject the negatives of ENFP because mistyped people tend to do that. No matter how healthy you are, if you are that type, then IMO, you should be able to identify many of the weaknesses in yourself at some point in your life. But as noted above, 2s rarely admit a flaw in themselves other than "I care too much!" or cute stuff like "I lose my keys all the time!".

I have no advice here...this is just what I see going with them. I admit my super evolved coping strategy is usually: "keep people at arm's length". :D
I do know that for 2s - don't one-up. I let them win and at what they think they want. They stay frustrated, but I can't force them to accept genuine care, and neither will I be forced into some stupid competition.
So in this case, they want to be the Ultimate ENFPs, and I suppose that threatens your identity (?). What is this triggering for you? It's clearly causing some anxiety... understandably.

I like how Starry calls you a professor, just confirms what I already have been thinking... But lets not get into that now.

So my question to [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] is, how do you know, that the person who is doing the e2 negative side, is in fact e2 and not perhaps another type that disintegrated into e2's negative side? And Also that e2 ESFP of yours is probably an ESTP, because they are 3w2s.

I've had this discussion with [MENTION=22064]RedAmazoneFriendZone[/MENTION] and I think this part is still not clear to me.
 

Qlip

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Nice! See if I've seen it I didn't know what I was looking at. So (bare with because I recently realized I really don't get this) in those cases has the 3 stepped into something a little on the dirty defense attorney/used car salesman side of things because that's the design they want for X purpose and in their minds no ones creeped out by it? Or is that 3s insecurities messing with an image that should be expressing with a little more sophistication?

I think there's plenty of examples of both in the 3 world. To me anyway, a healthy 3 has a kind of used salesman vibe, or at least ones I've worked with. Not everybody is bothered by it, but I have to really focus on the good aspects of the person to get past it. But sometimes it goes completely off the rails. In my mind the problem isn't that the image doesn't have sophistication, but no authenticity on how the bearer of it feels about him/herself. They they just proceed to just spew out lists of what they've ever done, how they are better than anybody, what things they own that are status symbols, etc, to make up for that feeling.

Or, at least that's how I interpret it when it gets obnoxious.
 

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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I have no idea, lol.

Am I supposed to be the type that does this? I don't know what it is. :huh:



I was just like "omg how did I miss Giggly's post!!!???" But I guess this was just from last night haha. Just maintaining my image of a beloved forumer...dutiful and attentive to all members but especially members she specifically called to a thread for assistance.


I have no idea either... I'm still working to wrap my brain around it...especially the 2s manifestation as it appears at least for now in my mind that where the 3s and 4s have a conscious awareness of image...the 2s do not...or with Fe being highly concentrated here I'm assuming mirroring and positive reinforcement from others can blur the lines between what is fact and fiction for the individual. But I'm getting ahead of myself...

It's so awesome to see you Giggly :hug: I miss reading more of your posts and hope you are doing well.


I wasn't sure if you would know much about e2s use of image... But yes, you are supposed to know and so I'm sure highlander will soon be getting in contact with you regarding the lack of your own type knowledge fine. haha No, no, no your not supposed to know I was just wondering if you did. I'm not sure I am the one to explain this but simply stated...2, 3 and 4s will not make the grave mistake of entering society as themselves without polish...but rather construct and assume a persona for various reasons depending.


The only thing *I think* I've seen you do as it would pertain to image is hold back your intelligence to a degree. <-NOT saying I'm seeing things correctly in the least...I could be totally off here...but I have had that sense on quite a few occasions tbh. That you hold back the full strength of your intellect to remain non-threatening...and then it is your adorableness that is fully featured...does that make sense? I should say though that I see all SFJs do this from time to time and I've even asked about it. But I definitely see this at what I believe is the image level with 2s.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
Messages
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I have no idea either... I'm still working to wrap my brain around it...especially the 2s manifestation as it appears at least for now in my mind that where the 3s and 4s have a conscious awareness of image...the 2s do not...or with Fe being highly concentrated here I'm assuming mirroring and positive reinforcement from others can blur the lines between what is fact and fiction for the individual. But I'm getting ahead of myself...


With 2s things are very simple, however in this case it is perhaps better to use term "social role" than "image". Since their image is to be welcoming and helpful to the point that they distort themselves. (what is image basically)
 

Starry

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I think there's plenty of examples of both in the 3 world. To me anyway, a healthy 3 has a kind of used salesman vibe, or at least ones I've worked with. Not everybody is bothered by it, but I have to really focus on the good aspects of the person to get past it. But sometimes it goes completely off the rails. In my mind the problem isn't that the image doesn't have sophistication, but no authenticity on how the bearer of it feels about him/herself. They they just proceed to just spew out lists of what they've ever done, how they are better than anybody, what things they own that are status symbols, etc, to make up for that feeling.

Or, at least that's how I interpret it when it gets obnoxious.



This is super fascinating to me Qlip and I really can't thank you enough for expanding. I mean, such a large part of why I started this thread is because there's something about unhealthy...possibly even healthy expressions of image within the heart triad I don't even know...that I'm reacting to incredibly poorly...sometimes to the point of wanting to tell them off. And thought understanding as much of the entire portrait here that I can will help to set me free.

What you describe above...is exactly what I'm talking about...although for whatever reason...I haven't been exposed much to the e3 used cars salesman variety.

I used to read a blog though by a female 2w3 that was very much the same so I'm now assuming the w3 was strong in its influence on this person because bragging really isn't something I see in the 2s.

But this blog was one big brag feast...like... "My SO bought me this expensive jewelry" and "My SO surprised me with a weekend trip to this exotic place"... every post. I should be clear and state again...in no way were these matter-of-fact tellings of this individuals daily existence...it was all blatant bragging that...like a trainwreck...I couldn't take my eyes off of because I was desperately trying to figure out why it bothered me so. Because it is not the things. I'm assuming you are very similar to me in this regard... While I've never been into expensive things and would personally seem so disappointingly shallow to myself if I were going on and on about having received expensive gifts... I don't presume to know what's best for others or what has made them into the people that they are. I couldn't figure out what it was that was making me insane about this blog...because it wasn't the bragging in and of itself. Like, normally I find it easy to be happy for others when they are genuinely happy in what they themselves see as good fortune.

^^But that isn't what this was all about and you have helped me to see this. These stories were being shared for the sole purpose of asserting their higher degree of individual worth compared to others <-And oh hell no...Starry just can't deal with that.

Competition is assigned to Image Types as a feature of their personalities...and me no like competition that doesn't really present with a fair arena to actually compete in.

- - - Updated - - -

With 2s things are very simple, however in this case it is perhaps better to use term "social role" than "image". Since their image is to be welcoming and helpful to the point that they distort themselves. (what is image basically)


Totally makes sense...thanks so much VG!
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Btw to answer the thread question. (from 3w4 perspective)



I have a need to be the most informed person around (or atleast close to that if it is large group of people)

I am pretty good at hidding the resoning why I do things.

I often compete with people quietly so that they don't know. (since I want to know if I can surpass their work)

People in general find me to be quite convincing, back in day I even got quite a few very good grades for my presentation style.

At one point I didn't want to do certan things so I always waited not so long before my father came home to start doing things. However what is intereting is that he always presumed that I was working the whole time he was gone.

I made myself a goal to finish high school at the top of my class and that is exactly what I have done. Also I took the challange of finnishing collage on my second language.

I never had more then 10 pounds extra from my ideal weight and that isn't a coincidence. (especially since good portion of my family is obese)

There are days when my mother claims that she would like to know me better, since I am emotionally untransparent if you take a closer look.

I like to know as much as possible in order to prepare well and win/leave good impression.

I like a good challange from time to time.

I can type smug posts such as this one and always have enough arguments to present.




Etc etc.
 

Starry

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Btw to answer the thread question. (from 3w4 perspective)



I have a need to be the most informed person around (or atleast close to that if it is large group of people)

I am pretty good at hidding the resoning why I do things.

I often compete with people quietly so that they don't know. (since I want to know if I can surpass their work)

People in general find me to be quite convincing, back in day I even got quite a few very good grades for my presentation style.

At one point I didn't want to do certan things so I always waited not so long before my father came home to start doing things. However what is intereting is that he always presumed that I was working the whole time he was gone.

I made myself a goal to finish high school at the top of my class and that is exactly what I have done. Also I took the challange of finnishing collage on my second language.

I never had more then 10 pounds extra from my ideal weight and that isn't a coincidence. (especially since good portion of my family is obese)

There are days when my mother claims that she would like to know me better, since I am emotionally untransparent if you take a closer look.

I like to know as much as possible in order to prepare well and win/leave good impression.

I like a good challange from time to time.

I can type smug posts such as this one and always have enough arguments to present.




Etc etc.


This is awesome VG...I feel very happy to see you again and fortunate to have your contributions in this thread. You have already taught me so much.


Just because "why not?" on a typology website...

I can't really say one way or the other whether or not e3 makes sense for you. But you really seem e1 to me at least. Even some of the passages above read just like "INTJ that's seems ISTJ because they are strongly core e1". There's also the fact that many people look at their point of intergration and see a total alien that they could never squeeze themselves into even if they wouldn't rather die first. Everyday I think of e5 and then raise my hand..."Is there any other of way of doing this?." The way you struggle some with how ENFPs go about things I do wonder....is e7 your point of intergration?

But who knows. I'm just glad you're here.
 

Virtual ghost

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This is awesome VG...I feel very happy to see you again and fortunate to have your contributions in this thread. You have already taught me so much.


Just because "why not?" on a typology website...

I can't really say one way or the other whether or not e3 makes sense for you. But you really seem e1 to me at least. Even some of the passages above read just like "INTJ that's seems ISTJ because they are strongly core e1". There's also the fact that many people look at their point of intergration and see a total alien that they could never squeeze themselves into even if they wouldn't rather die first. Everyday I think of e5 and then raise my hand..."Is there any other of way of doing this?." The way you struggle some with how ENFPs go about things I do wonder....is e7 your point of intergration?

But who knows. I'm just glad you're here.


From tritype profiles

315

Most intellectual/perfectionistic 3, rational 3, methodical/precise, if introverted can be mistaken for 5 or 1,


315 - The Focused Consultant. Exacting, knowledge as means of projecting positive image. Hard working, challenging, know what is right way. 3w4, SO, SP.


Generally Sp 3 is defined as 1 that isn't 1. I have quite a few traits of e1 but I am way too flexible, open minded and big picture thinker for a 1 (but I have strong 1w9 fix for sure). Also I am too determined and bossy for a 5. However combination of 1,3 and 5 is "technical expert" tritype and thereore I have very brainy interests. However despite all of that I think that image is probably the best way to define the leading force and I don't see integration to 7 at all in me.


Actually in "my type subforum" I have explained in detail why I am 3 even if the thread started as why I am 1 intead of 5.


Here are two key points.


3 vs 5

The principal reason these two very different types are confused is that some Threes (especially if they are intelligent) would like to see themselves as "thinkers." Since Fives are most stereotypically seen as the "intelligent, thinking type," Threes may choose it rather than the type they actually are. This misidentification is made almost exclusively by Threes since Fives are not likely to think that they are Threes. Average Threes are set up to fulfil the hidden expectations of their parents; so in a family that values intelligence, originality, and intellectual brilliance, it is quite natural for Threes to grow up thinking that they must be those things in order to be worthwhile. Thus, narrow conceptions of the types, or unflattering and unfair presentations of type Three in some Enneagram literature may cause some Threes to want to be Fives.



Self-pres/Social 3

This subtype is the most reserved and introverted of the subtypes of enneatype Three, and possibly the hardest worker. They generally put a great deal of effort into their work, excelling at whatever they choose to do. They usually do what it takes to rise to the top. There is a strong desire to excel, although the areas chosen may differ widely from one Three to the next. These Threes are competitive in a quiet way. On the high side, they can be very generous with what they have learned and acquired. The driving motivation for their hard work comes down to their fear of not being good enough. Self-pres Threes seem to feel that if they get that promotion, have enough money or buy a big enough house they will then be lovable, admired by others and finally stop feeling like a failure. The false belief that they are what they accomplish is the driving force behind the behavior of self-pres/soc Threes. When healthier, this subtype comes to the realization that all of their hard work won’t change what they fundamentally feel inside. They learn to prioritize other aspects of their lives. They slow down and begin to accept themselves as they are. As the sexual instinct is last, less energy is available for intimate relationships. These Threes can therefore have a hard time with intimacy until they learn to slow down and prioritize their relationships


It makes perfect sense to me.
 

Virtual ghost

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Jun 6, 2008
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Just a correction ... since it is the time to call "Spade a Spade".



Despite how nicely all of that sounds I just don't see myself fundamentally as image type. Even if under this very unconventional combination the thing can work for me. The problem is that I am 5 but also 5 that isn't by the book five. In other words I think I am deluding myself and my real type is my original tritype: 583 (and that is how I actually tend to test)

The bolded parts may cause quite an overlap with e3.





The problem is that I am masking myself often because people generally can't take my raw bluntness (aka problem solving). What usually causes drama instead that it makes people think about what they are doing. Just yesterday I had a lunch with my parents but I lowered the mask and they started to freak out, while after that they started to laugh in style of "Hahaha, we rised such a Nazi" (I called them out on bad money management). The 583 is awkward combination since it is likely to quietly come close to people and then without warning blow up in the ENTJ style (what scares people). I am not sure that I ever spend some larger time with an F and that the person didn't say something about me being scary, awkward, forceful.


However if I am 5 then I am So/Sp and therefore that So gives me moral foundation, so that my 8w9 fix can look like a 1w9 (especially since I am not born or rised in capitalism). However it also gives me Social needs that I have to satisfy, but I don't fit fundamntally into my culture (that uses plenty of Ne,Ti, Se and Fe). What creates "no where to go" problem and I don't want to move on the other side of the world. The thing is that Sp 5 is just too passive for me and somehow I doubt that I am triple competency focus (513) and 0 points reactive, especially since I don't mind looking at the "dark side of the story". While this way I still have core and one fix in competency focus, what is enough. On the other hand 5 and 3 are camouflage types and on 8 fix I have 9 wing, therefore my camouflage is almost perfect (593 - triple camouflage).


My biggest problem is that many people may not be like I am and typology wouln't help much in that regard, expect making better masks, what isn't a real solution. However people like me seem to be quite rare and therefore I generally don't have proper company even if we overlook all the bad circumstances. Therefore I simply have to overuse the image to at least try to fix my relations with others and get what I want/need.
However I am tired of pretending to be something that I fundamantally aren't.
 
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