[Traditional Enneagram] How does FEAR manifest and influence type 9?

[Doctor Cringelord]

I understand the emotion fear is usually associated with the head types, but I'm curious how this emotion influences and shapes 9s' worldviews and approaches to conflict resolution/avoidance.

Thoughts? Links to research/writings on this are also welcome.

 

[miss fortune]

I have a very 9 coworker who I've worked closely with for about 2 years... his reaction to most negative emotions (and fear is no exception) is avoidance and shutting down

we all ended up in a situation about 6 months ago or so where getting fired was a likely outcome and we were all on our toes... he refused to speak to or interact with anyone and even to this day if someone mentions that incident he will quit speaking and leave

I can't speak from first hand experience, but that's the pattern I've observed in the 9 I spend the most time with

 

[ceecee]

Basic Desire: to find union and peace
Basic Fear: of separation

Here's the loop

Fear of separation -> illusions of union -> accommodating -> union -> Fear of separation

In the unhealthy state, the basic fear of separation can cause Type Nines to delude themselves with illusions of union, which they sustain by ignoring reality and blindly accommodating others or the world. Unfortunately, this means they won't achieve true union, which further increases Nines' basic fear. The cycle continues to build up.

The manifestation is denial. This becomes the accommodation. It's amazing how they can justify things.

World View: My efforts won't matter to the world. It's best to keep the peace.

To be honest, I have never gotten to the bottom of what the "union" and "separation" really is. From a person? From the world as a whole? From themselves? I suppose it varies but I'm not even sure they always know.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

World View: My efforts won't matter to the world. It's best to keep the peace.

9 in a nutshell. Apathetic harmonizing.

 

[Starry]

I definitely see 9s as having a fear of their own anger and power. Not understanding the experience of it myself I always cringe a little at my attempts to put it into words...but these are people that are tapped-into something larger than most of us are. There's a very real understanding of the universal and how we are all connected and they fear how their own powerful anger might level that all to the ground. So they put forth a great deal of energy in order to cut themselves off from that power and maintain peaceful conditions

 

[Evo]

Basic Desire: to find union and peace
Basic Fear: of separation

Here's the loop

Fear of separation -> illusions of union -> accommodating -> union -> Fear of separation

In the unhealthy state, the basic fear of separation can cause Type Nines to delude themselves with illusions of union, which they sustain by ignoring reality and blindly accommodating others or the world. Unfortunately, this means they won't achieve true union, which further increases Nines' basic fear. The cycle continues to build up.

The manifestation is denial. This becomes the accommodation. It's amazing how they can justify things.

World View: My efforts won't matter to the world. It's best to keep the peace.

To be honest, I have never gotten to the bottom of what the "union" and "separation" really is. From a person? From the world as a whole? From themselves? I suppose it varies but I'm not even sure they always know.

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] this is exactly the process I was explaining in my blog.

 

[gromit]

Huh. A good question. I'll see what I can come up with.

 

[ceecee]

I definitely see 9s as having a fear of their own anger and power. Not understanding the experience of it myself I always cringe a little at my attempts to put it into words...but these are people that are tapped-into something larger than most of us are. There's a very real understanding of the universal and how we are all connected and they fear how their own powerful anger might level that all to the ground. So they put forth a great deal of energy in order to cut themselves off from that power and maintain peaceful conditions

See, I think that they hear this so much, the unhealthy ones believe it on a grandiose scale. Of course they fear anger, it will give people a totally different view of them but they sure as hell don't fear power. They may disguise power to look like benevolent self-sacrifice but in reality, it's pure manipulation. I don't mean that all 9's do this. Unhealthy ones can and do.

 

[Starry]

See, I think that they hear this so much, the unhealthy ones believe it on a grandiose scale. Of course they fear anger, it will give people a totally different view of them but they sure as hell don't fear power. They may disguise power to look like benevolent self-sacrifice but in reality, it's pure manipulation. I don't mean that all 9's do this. Unhealthy ones can and do.

Thanks for this. See, this is what I meant when I said I cringe a little at my attempts to describe it because whenever I do I always get the sense I'm making it sound supernatural or something and in doing so hand over precisely what unhealthy 9s are looking for to go ahead and stay unhealthy. And yes, I have had more than one 9 assume the power of someone else...or the power of the group and wield it against me as if it was actually their own.

 

[ARET45]

I understand the emotion fear is usually associated with the head types, but I'm curious how this emotion influences and shapes 9s' worldviews and approaches to conflict resolution/avoidance.

Thoughts? Links to research/writings on this are also welcome.

For type 9 there is a fear of conflict, distress, disharmony and this type tends to want things to remain the same. The difference between the fear of type 9 and the fear of a head type; type 9 fears and avoids pain for themselves and others, whereas the head type has a generalised fear about future problems occurring.

The emotion fear is probably most prominent in self-preservation subtypes of 9, at least in the way of resembling a head type.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Of course they fear anger, it will give people a totally different view of them

Yup. Which provides fuel for avoidance to rejection, and conflict.

Disguising power to look like benevolent sacrifice

In unhealthy or even average 9's, I also see power as an "accepted" outlet for their anger. How much depends upon health.

This gives them a passive-aggressive stance to be sure but if you aren't seeing a 9 be passive-aggressive?

That is trouble. It means they are at their limit and 9's anger can be frightening and often self-sabotaging.

My ISTP 9 friend has shot himself in the foot on a few occasions. All this does, is cycle through and tell them that anger = bad. When, it's not the anger, it's the expression of it.

It is a vicious cycle.

 

[Frosty]

I pretty much- let things go, let things go, let things go- all the while they start just seeming heavier and heavier and I get angry because- I feel I shouldnt HAVE to let things go. But I do, because I am afraid that if I dont... well- that I would just be massively overreacting and would be so completely unfair... and I would make things worse and would feel just so horribly guilty because- well... Im just making a spectacle/and when it gets to that point... one that feels just destructive as well. So I feel guilty if I react, but I feel guilty as well if I dont react- because I dont like to think I am holding any grudges/resentment. But eventually that resentment builds to a point where- I feel I need to voice it(this is usually at the point where I start feeling itll start 'leaking' otherwise- and passive aggressive... is something that I dont like either)- anyways. Then Ill voice it- feel awful about voicing it- like Im just out to cause problems- all the while knowing that- this cycle will happen again with pretty much everything. But yes. I do feel anger. Sometimes powerful anger- but I swallow it most of the time. But because I do it most of the time- swallow it- me being angry isnt always visible on the surface... and it can appear as if I got angry for just some singular stupid immediate reason... when really- its almost like... Im angry because of almost a 'theme' of things that relate to various extents to what it appears like I am angry over. I DO fear getting angry... because- I feel it inside and to let it out... I dont like doing that- it just- I hate doing it. I feel nauseous doing it. I do fear it.

Not sure if thats at all clear or anythibg.

 

[Starry]

In unhealthy or even average 9's, I also see power as an "accepted" outlet for their anger. How much depends upon health.

This gives them a passive-aggressive stance to be sure but if you aren't seeing a 9 be passive-aggressive?

What kind of power are you and [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] talking about here? I'm starting to think we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm talking about sneer force. The kind of force that doesn't usually get funneled through manipulation and passive aggression.

Basically I can't tell if I agree or disagree with what you two are saying/discussing.

If you are saying that 9s don't fear power as in an ability to manipulate and influence from behind the scenes...then I would agree with that.

If you are saying that 9s don't fear power as in direct force...then I disagree. <-Which is what I was saying. 9s are cut off from their own anger/power...they fear getting angry because they fear unleashing the hurricane within. When they do get "forceful" at non-hurricane levels (average to unhealthy)...I've seen it said they are borrowing the power/force from individuals/groups/archetypes they are merged with. Or they are having a counterphobic (e6 stress point) reaction.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What kind of power are you and [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] talking about here? I'm starting to think we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm talking about sneer force. The kind of force that doesn't usually get funneled through manipulation and passive aggression.

power = position of authority or leadership

 

[ceecee]

power = position of authority or leadership

^^

 

[Starry]

Thank you for clarifying. I actually think healthy 9s make some of the most effective leaders out there.

 

[á´…eparted]

My mother is a 9w8 (INFJ) and I have witnessed her become slowly overcome with fear, internalize it, and not even realize it. She's stepped into disintegrated 6 mode for many years now of varying levels.

Growing up, she was perpetually afraid to stand up for herself. She just couldn't do it, and when she tried it came across as meek or half asked. She never wanted to rock the boat. She also had a lot of niche interests and beliefs that she was afraid to express for many years out of fear as being seen as weird, judged, bias, etc. When she did stand up for herself, it came across as passive-aggressive, which was something she ironically denounced.

Eventually though, she felt so isolated and alone that she started to outlet it, and outlet her internalized sense of unfairness and anger that the world did not treat her fairly or gave her a bad hand. She did have a lot of held in anger and was unaware of it. She latched onto belief systems that she created for herself, ways to say "my life was unfair to me, and I am going to make it fair". Having come into her spiritual beliefs she's constantly virtue signaling all the time. Few want to be around her because of it. It's a way to boost her low self-esteem and fear that the world is not going to treat her fairly is now in her control. It's made her much more apt to "gently" express her opinion. She's outleting her fear and anger, but is totally blind to how maladaptive it is.

Because of this, I seldom talk to my mother anymore. I mean no hyperbole when I say she is crazy.

 

[ceecee]

Or they are having a counterphobic (e6 stress point) reaction.

I think many 9's are actually 6's. I do agree that healthy 9's do well in leadership positions IF they have learned how to manage people correctly.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Thank you for clarifying. I actually think healthy 9s make some of the most effective leaders out there.

Of course. I have noticed how the anger "bleeds out" though maybe subconsciously. I think it's a normal 9 thing. When a 9 actually openly expresses anger, I think it's normally very justified but timing or execution may be poor.

 

[ceecee]

Of course. I have noticed how the anger "bleeds out" though maybe subconsciously. I think it's a normal 9 thing. When a 9 actually openly expresses anger, I think it's normally very justified but timing or execution may be poor.

Yeah but I will drop almost anything to egg it on. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean in a supportive, nurturing, safe way.