[Traditional Enneagram] ENFJ with enneagram 5, is that possible?

[geedoenfj]

So I am more than sure that ENFJ description suits me pretty well.. But now I'm confused about my Enneagram.
When I first made the Enneagram test and it was 2w3, I was like hmm it could be, I mean "The helper" pretty much pertains with ENFJ, I didn't read too much into it tbh, but lately I've been unconvinced with the discreption, I'm reading into it and it's like that is just a part of me being exaggerated, I mean I do have some 2 traits as well, but I'm not convinced that it entirely fits me, it might be just how I am being perceived rather than what I really am..
Anyways, being for months in the journey of discovering myself, I came to more understanding and acceptance of who I am, thus I decided to do it once again and figure out what it might be, it turned out I am 5 with balanced wings (?!), and as I read the description, I thought to myself "yes yes I can relate to that, at least most of it" I feel like it's describing the side of me that I am not admitting or taking notice on..
But on the other hand, it's rare that ENFJ and 5 can be in the same person, I know any MBIT type can be any Enneagram.. However what do you guys think of that? Do you suggest that I do further questionnaire? Feel free to ask me questions..

Thank you ^_^

 

[Tilt]

I used to mistype as e5. I settled with e3 with strong e5 influences. I realized that I idealized e5 traits as part of my image. Have you looked at e3? I am guessing that you might be one.

 

[geedoenfj]

I used to mistype as e5. I settled with e3 with strong e5 influences. I realized that I idealized e5 traits as part of my image. Have you looked at e3? I am guessing that you might be one.

Well I read 3, I don't know how I come off in the forum but here are some clarifications about me:
1. I am not competetive person, in fact I hate competition because it puts too much stress on me, I do (sometimes) notice the success of others and view it as a motivation to me to try to work more on myself, though I don't care about being percieved as the best in my work, I never did, I only try to make my work as much perfect as I can rather than focusing on anything else, but of course I wouldn't mind validation, and would absolutely hate when someone degrading my work with no obvious reason, I welcome criticism so that I can improve, you don't get to be the sole judge of your work..
2. I don't think too much about validation from others, I only think of others opinions as something to be (considered), I can be convinced with it or I can just take a notice of it, apologize if it offended them, (no need to offend people), I care about harmony and discussing ideas rather than looking on personal issues..
3. I don't think I have that much of image fancy, I rarely take pictures of myself, I never posted a picture of myself or my husband, I never try to give off a certain impression to people about how I live my life, I find romantic stuff that couples do to be boring and just a showoff, I am eyerolling on such things, but appreciate only certain limit of it if that makes sense.
I very much like to keep my life as private as possible, maybe that's why I don't like to hangout with my friends because I don't like them asking me about my life, I don't want to come off as rude telling them (hey thank you, I can take care of myself) know a lot of friends but don't really like to have that much contact with them, on the other hand I would love to help them and feel so deeply for their problems and can get too involved when they ask me for help.
4. As a woman I'm decently stylish, I try to keep my style as classy and simple as possible, on the other hand, I'm not an outgoing person, I love staying at home all day, whenever I know I should go somewhere the first thing that comes to my mind is "Come on!" And when I go I wish to get back home as quickly as possible, I love to stay at home and do reasearches and reading, and just finding new quotes, discussions, and new horizons, or watching movies and listening to music (though while watching a movie or a song I get too involved by what year it was? Who the actors and the director are? What's their life story? What are the mistakes and what can I add to make it better etc. hahaha I often regret it because although the story is moving and I may shed tears while watching, but I wish I was more focused on enjoying my time)..

So 3... No I don't think so

 

[Tilt]

Well, you seem very image-focused to me. Image doesn't have to be about the superficial... It can be about whatever the individual values and idealizes and how they present those. It's not necessarily about competition with others, it can be a competition with yourself. Despite how I may come across on here, I am typically unassuming and private... people don't really know all that about my life

 

[geedoenfj]

Thank you [MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION] for your reply, and clarifications you put new lights on it, because most of the discreption I found about 3 is very superficial and stereotypical, as if the sole purpose of my life is covering my nonsense by a fake picture..
So far, I still read both and find much more relation to 5, I will keep reading though..
Well can I ask you a question since you experienced the same suituation as I do now.. you said that you realized that you developed the e5 traits to compliment your e3, do you think you have the ability to direct those 5 traits towards a certain purpose "the image" or "the goal" that you have a vision of? or do you find it to be random and distracting and useless but yet you can't have control over this enormous curiousity and the strong desire to explore things that you have no idea how they will be beneficial or productive for you, and might be geeky and unusual to some level?

 

[Tilt]

Thank you [MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION] for your reply, and clarifications you put new lights on it, because most of the discreption I found about 3 is very superficial and stereotypical, as if the sole purpose of my life is covering my nonsense by a fake picture..
So far, I still read both and find much more relation to 5, I will keep reading though..
Well can I ask you a question since you experienced the same suituation as I do now.. you said that you realized that you developed the e5 traits to compliment your e3, do you think you have the ability to direct those 5 traits towards a certain purpose "the image" or "the goal" that you have a vision of? or do you find it to be random and distracting and useless but yet you can't have control over this enormous curiousity and the strong desire to explore things that you have no idea how they will be beneficial or productive for you, and might be geeky and unusual to some level?

When I was growing up, I was considered the nerd of the family. I would read the dictionary for fun, would never stop asking questions, and now I constantly google things that I am curious about.

For the longest time, my self-image was based around being seen as intelligent, competent and knowledgeable... I didn't care at all about being stylish (for like 4 years, I would only wear guy's clothes and would get PISSED if people tried to make me "feminine"). I got more into style and make up because I wanted to get something out of a guy (I got it... and no... I don't mean sexually) and liked the perks associated with being perceived as "attractive". I got what I wanted because I was able to sell my WORTH to the right people.


I went to school for psychology and philosophy (with an A-average) and hope to get more into finance and business within the next couple of years. I developed and wrote a psychology program on my own, learned the basics of business finance, acted as content writer/editor, business administrator, among other things in the last two years. So I do clearly have an intellectual bent. But at the end of the day, I want to be VALUED for those things as opposed to a 5's need for information in order to feel secure in the world.

 

[geedoenfj]

When I was growing up, I was considered the nerd of the family. I would read the dictionary for fun, would never stop asking questions, and now I constantly google things that I am curious about.

For the longest time, my self-image was based around being seen as intelligent, competent and knowledgeable... I didn't care at all about being stylish (for like 4 years, I would only wear guy's clothes and would get PISSED if people tried to make me "feminine"). I got more into style and make up because I wanted to get something out of a guy (I got it... and no... I don't mean sexually) and liked the perks associated with being perceived as "attractive". I got what I wanted because I was able to sell my WORTH to the right people.


I went to school for psychology and philosophy (with an A-average) and hope to get more into finance and business within the next couple of years. I developed and wrote a psychology program on my own, learned the basics of business finance, acted as content writer/editor, business administrator, among other things in the last two years. So I do clearly have an intellectual bent. But at the end of the day, I want to be VALUED for those things as opposed to a 5's need for information in order to feel secure in the world.

Thank you, that was very informative and useful ^_^

 

[Typh0n]

I have the same problem, I relate more to ENTJ/LIE than to INTJ/ILI, but I don't see how I could be anything other than 4 or 5 in enneagram. I thought about 3w4, since they compete with themselves more than with others, but I'm just not socially assertive. I'll look more into E3, but even 3w4 are described as assertive and I'm just more withdrawn, though maybe the influence of a strong 4 wing draws me in.

What do you think? If you have time to look into my case it would be appreciated, though I understand if you don't. [MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION]

 

[Tilt]

I have the same problem, I relate more to ENTJ/LIE than to INTJ/ILI, but I don't see how I could be anything other than 4 or 5 in enneagram. I thought about 3w4, since they compete with themselves more than with others, but I'm just not socially assertive. I'll look more into E3, but even 3w4 are described as assertive and I'm just more withdrawn, though maybe the influence of a strong 4 wing draws me in.

What do you think? @Future in Progress

3w4s are typically described as being more "reserved", "distant", "aloof". My good friend and my dad are both EXFJ 3w2s. Compared to me, they are much more assertive and friendly, flaunt themselves more. I am a bit more self-involved, keep to myself, more private and secretive. I assert myself if someone PISSES me off but I am much more silently calculated than either of them rather than being direct. But if it's going to screw with their image or cause too much conflict, both of them ignore the problem.

 

[Tilt]

Maybe [MENTION=22264]Bush Did 9/11[/MENTION] would have more insight into 3s and 5s because he's an example of an highly intellectual e3.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I just don't see you as core 5, being intellectual isn't just a 5 thing. 5 in tritype as a fix ok, but I doubt that this is your core.
I agree with idea that you are probably a 3 that was mistyped all along. Long ago I even saw a study that says that the most likely type to be e3 is ENFJ and mistyping of 3 as 5 is also pretty common.

(however 4, 6 or 9 isn't fully impossible for you, from my point of view)

 

[geedoenfj]

I just don't see you as core 5, being intellectual isn't just a 5 thing. 5 in tritype as a fix ok, but I doubt that this is your core.
I agree with idea that you are probably a 3 that was mistyped all along. Long ago I even saw a study that says that the most likely type to be e3 is ENFJ and mistyping of 3 as 5 is also pretty common.

(however 4, 6 or 9 isn't fully impossible for you, from my point of view)

Thank you VG for your reply, I read that too.. (I was expecting 6 or 4 when I took the last test tbh)
However so far I find myself to fit more to five, I find myself more often motivated by fear, rarely motivated by success and achievements, I read e3 and like "God! Why can't I focus and be like that?" like put my brain on one direction and just focus on it, I mean healthy or average 3 is quite impressive I always thought if I just have more of that, I would do much better in life..
I am more interested in knowledge than people validation, my parents didn't validate my interests, even told me that I am wasting my time, when I do good at school I almost never expected a reward or encouragement from their side or from anyone, they still don't know much about what my interests because I was such an introverted and private child and teenager with very few to no friends..
perhaps because of coming from such a troubled country.. I don't know..

 

[á´…eparted]

An ENFJ 5 would be very rare. Of all the possible enneagram types for ENFJ's, I'd say it'd be the rarest. It's just as rare as an ENTJ 2, or an INFJ 7, or an ESFP 1. In those cases the way in which they think (MBTI) and the way they react/respond to the world (enneagram) run counter to one another. Generally speaking 5 is strongly correlated with Ti, which is the inferior for an ENFJ, so there's a strong paradox between thinking and responses. They exist, and it will result in a rather unusual take on the type from the standard model of what an ENFJ is, but they are not common. I'd imagine this would result in a very analytical ENFJ who uses Fe in very atypical circumstances, and will shy away from situations which Fe tends to have strengths. Which, would result in a rather introverted presentation. It'd almost look like they actively avoid their strengths.

I have also seen that 5's and 9's can confuse themselves with one another, so it would be worth considering both. Simply due to the high unlikelyness of ENFJ-5, and ENFJ-9 not being rare.

 

[geedoenfj]

An ENFJ 5 would be very rare. Of all the possible enneagram types for ENFJ's, I'd say it'd be the rarest. It's just as rare as an ENTJ 2, or an INFJ 7, or an ESFP 1. In those cases the way in which they think (MBTI) and the way they react/respond to the world (enneagram) run counter to one another. Generally speaking 5 is strongly correlated with Ti, which is the inferior for an ENFJ, so there's a strong paradox between thinking and responses. They exist, and it will result in a rather unusual take on the type from the standard model of what an ENFJ is, but they are not common. I'd imagine this would result in a very analytical ENFJ who uses Fe in very atypical circumstances, and will shy away from situations which Fe tends to have strengths. Which, would result in a rather introverted presentation. It'd almost look like they actively avoid their strengths.

I have also seen that 5's and 9's can confuse themselves with one another, so it would be worth considering both. Simply due to the high unlikelyness of ENFJ-5, and ENFJ-9 not being rare.

Thank you Hard for your response, yes I tried to read more about ENFJ e5 but found very few about it because as you said it's rare, I thought I'd put the subject right here so I can get more help with that from you guys, I will read more about 9 as well, even though I don't think I am a peace maker but I might find something interesting..
I think I am quite analytical and I am sometimes speaking to myself without realizing it, I feel the need to remind myself that "Just turn it down don't get too carried away with that" besides I wouldn't like to annoy those around me -usually my family- I get too often indulged into my thoughts that I forget to fulfill important needs and duties, my family and specially my grandfather used to be annoyed at how questionning I am.. I inherited that from my INTJ mother I suppose.. As long as I lived with my parents, I was told I sometimes get too frank and inconsiderate of others feelings, or asking forward questions, or they criticize my 8 tendencies, which all contradicts with my kind and caring nature..
I usually feel awkward in emotional situations, I feel I am not very good with social courtsey and get shy, but pretty good at getting away with it I guess, I am not horrible at that either, people would as well accept a nice smile and a head nod, I don't welcome occasional physical touch, huggs and kisses, I usually keep a certain distance from people, even those that I love or care about, getting physically close to people makes me feel awakward and uncomfortable, I would only feel the need for that if I am in a big trouble, I would only give hugs and kisses if I feel like truly giving it, for example with my son and sometimes with my INFP sister as I incredibly and deeply love them, meanwhile, when I see someone (anyone) in need for emotional support, I am very generous and pretty good with providing that, I would feel so deep for that person and try to do what I can to help them, not my best but.. Yeah whatever..
I don't usually get emotionally involved in discussions unless I see a mere injustice and cruel judgements, otherwise I would like to collect as many information as I can and use more of questioning and curiousity approach, I can change my opinion about any issue if I find new evidence and notices..
Actually some people would think I am an introverted person because I am shy and kind of cautious, but I also have the fun and joyful side as well, it really depends on the situation and what side of me people can bring out..
Off reading into 9 :bookish:

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thank you VG for your reply, I read that too.. (I was expecting 6 or 4 when I took the last test tbh)
However so far I find myself to fit more to five, I find myself more often motivated by fear, rarely motivated by success and achievements, I read e3 and like "God! Why can't I focus and be like that?" like put my brain on one direction and just focus on it, I mean healthy or average 3 is quite impressive I always thought if I just have more of that, I would do much better in life..
I am more interested in knowledge than people validation, my parents didn't validate my interests, even told me that I am wasting my time, when I do good at school I almost never expected a reward or encouragement from their side or from anyone, they still don't know much about what my interests because I was such an introverted and private child and teenager with very few to no friends..
perhaps because of coming from such a troubled country.. I don't know..

Well, e6 is motivted by fear and is prone to learning, however their logic is more down to Earth.


Therefore if you insist on this then I will switch my logic. In other words: what makes you think you are ENFJ ?
If all what you are saying is true then it would reasonable to consider INFJ, that quite often can be e5. After all aux Fe can make the illusion of extroversion.

 

[geedoenfj]

Well, e6 is motivted by fear and is prone to learning, however their logic is more down to Earth.


Therefore if you insist on this then I will switch my logic. In other words: what makes you think you are ENFJ ?
If all what you are saying is true then it would reasonable to consider INFJ, that quite often can be e5. After all aux Fe can make the illusion of extroversion.

If I didn't doubt the 5 specially while being an ENFJ, I wouldn't have asked on the first place, I want to find out more, and your questions and analysis are most welcome and helpful I'm thinking of doing the test once again as soon as I get sufficient responses from you guys..
Well I am pretty much an extroverted as well, though I am better at one-on-one communication, and more often on small social gatherings, you can absolutely tell that I am an extrovert, but it's like I have two sides, on-and-off, the fun and outgoing, talkative side, that would leave no doubt of being extrovert, and then suddenly the ovservant and detatched side, it's either people gathered around me and we're having fun and I often told that I am lovable, charismatic and charming and stuff like that, or they're talking about stuff and I'm just taking notice and maybe asking questions.. I get various opinions about my personality, some of them thinking I am such a cheerful person out going, others would say I am a thinker and analytical, It really depends..
I don't understand myself

 

[Virtual ghost]

If I didn't doubt the 5 specially while being an ENFJ, I wouldn't have asked on the first place, I want to find out more, and your questions and analysis are most welcome and helpful
Well I am pretty much an extroverted as well, though I am better at one-on-one communication, and more often on small social gatherings, you can absolutely tell that I am an extrovert, but it's like I have two sides, on-and-off, the fun and outgoing, talkative side, and then the suddenly the ovservant and detatched side, it's either people gathered around me and we're having fun and I often told that I am lovable, charismatic and charming and stuff like that, or they're talking about stuff and I'm just taking notice and maybe asking questions.. It really depends..
I don't understand myself

It is pretty simple you have Fe/Se and Ni/Ti loop in you. The only real question is which is stronger ?


The problem is that you say: " I am lovable, charismatic and charming and stuff " and that doesn't really fit e5 picture. On the other hand intellect isn't monopoly of e5.
For e5 knowledge is main defensive and offensive mechanism and I simply don't see that in your posts.

 

[geedoenfj]

It is pretty simple you have Fe/Se and Ni/Ti loop in you. The only real question is which is stronger ?


The problem is that you say: " I am lovable, charismatic and charming and stuff " and that doesn't really fit e5 picture. On the other hand intellect isn't monopoly of e5.
For e5 knowledge is main defensive and offensive mechanism and I simply don't see that in your posts.

Hmmm yes that's what confuses me as well, I wish I can find out I am 3, or build more 3, and you're right, I don't have tolerance for too long discussions, specially with the existence of language barrier, I like to get straight to the core of the problem ..
I should do the test once again, try to answer each question more carefully.. Thank you very much ^_^

 

[Virtual ghost]

Hmmm yes that's what confuses me as well, I wish I can find out I am 3, or build more 3, and you're right, I don't have tolerance for too long discussions, specially with the existence of language barrier..
I should do the test once again, try to answer each question more carefully.. Thank you very much ^_^

I suggest that instead you should study yourself and everything you are doing, that will help much more than some random online test. Plus go throught a few profiles of each enneagram type you can see yourself to be.

If you study e3 I also suggest that you concentrate more on the 3w4.

 

[geedoenfj]

Thank you all for your responses, I'm reading all of the ennea types right now and can relate to a little bit of each one of them, which sucks

I lost trust in Enneagram