[Traditional Enneagram] (Dis)integration

[fetus]

I think learning about integration/disintegration is a great way to discover one's type. Reflect and think about how you are at your healthiest and unhealthiest. This can really help steer things away from stereotypes, I think.

However...I find it hard to find actual descriptions of integration and disintegration. I just hear, "4 disintegrates to 2." Are there any descriptions out there that actually explain this? Can I find information longer than just a sentence?

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I don't really understand why 4 should disintegrate to 2. In my personal experience, when I am at my worst I am usually even more introverted than usual, I don't want contact with people and I can become pretty rude, very withdrawn and isolated while I concentrate only at myself and my feelings or misfortunes.
This is not very much what 2s do, because they become needy and manipulative.
What I've heard from other 4s, most of them describe the same experience with being unhealthy as I do... I don't really see the 2 in it.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

To answer the doubts above, there are two kinds of 4 : the 4 alpha that disintegrates in 2 (if you have the instinctive in last position), and the 4 mu that disintegrates in 1 (if you have the mental as a last preference).

The 4 alpha turns into a 2 alpha so He/she becomes very possessive, manipulates under a mask of "helper". He becomes very proud of it.

The 4 mu turns into a 1 mu so He/she is convinced about his/her very unfair situation. Others are responsive of his/ her suffering. He/she criticizes others very openly, denying any anger.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

To answer the doubts above, there are two kinds of 4 : the 4 alpha that disintegrates in 2 (if you have the instinctive in last position), and the 4 mu that disintegrates in 1 (if you have the mental as a last preference).

The 4 alpha turns into a 2 alpha so He/she becomes very possessive, manipulates under a mask of "helper". He becomes very proud of it.

The 4 mu turns into a 1 mu so He/she is convinced about his/her very unfair situation. Others are responsive of his/ her suffering. He/she criticizes others very openly, denying any anger.

Wrong because 1 is 4's point of growth...how can it be a disintegration?

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

Wrong because 1 is 4's point of growth...how can it be a disintegration?

Because there is not just 1 kind of 4, I wrote it. But if you wanna feel right, I am not feeling like teaching something to someone who thinks directly I am wrong !

 

[hjgbujhghg]

Because there is not just 1 kind of 4, I wrote it. But if you wanna feel right, I am not feeling like teaching something to someone who thinks directly I am wrong !

According to enneagram theory there's one type of 4 which disintergrates to 2 and integrates to 1. If you believe there are more type 4s and a 4 can disintergrate to 1 than you're probably not talking about enneagram.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

According to enneagram theory there's one type of 4 which disintergrates to 2 and integrates to 1. If you believe there are more type 4s and a 4 can disintergrate to 1 than you're probably not talking about enneagram.

I have an enneagram diploma my dear......... anyway think what you want. Aurevoir I just wanted to bring some info . Now I don't want anymore !

 

[fetus]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] [MENTION=17945]Alaska[/MENTION] [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] You guys are also 4's, maybe you can help answer this question. What is your disintegration like to 2?

 

[thoughtlost]

I don't think "disintegration" looks the same for everyone in the specific type, but for some people it really does help them determine their true type.

I had a type 2 friend who clearly disintegrated and I seriously thought she was pretty 8ish. She was going through a rough time at her knew college. She would always complain about how incompetent people were and she liked to take charge of things and always tried to put herself in a leadership position. She would talk about how she wishes she could make her emotions go away because she hated them so much... it made her "ineffective". As I got to know her, I realized that this was her way of getting putting to be dependent on her ...in a "non-emotional/objective" way.

I have mistyped 6s as 3s because some of them can become too dependent on what other people think about them to feel secure. I read some place that this happens mostly to 6w7s. I hear that they can lie to themselves about themselves to cover up their insecurities and some of them will be afraid of taking risks so they don't look stupid to others. So if this is the case, then 6s show signs of unhealthiness when they place too much stock on other people's perceptions about themselves.

I think this can be true of me. Sometimes, you just want people to like you. It's not like a 2 ...it's literally purely "look at me!!! tell me I am okay/pretty/smart/creative/funny/whatever it is you want the person to believe" so you can feel secure. Lots of 6s mistype as 2w3 or 3w2 for that reason because it's typically attributed to those types. With true 2s, they feel that they need to earn love. But with 6s, they can do deceitful things (like a 3) because it's simply about allaying your fears... not earning love. Oh and it's not that 6s intentionally lie to themselves (so they may not realize they are doing this). Just like 3s aren't TRYING to lie to themselves... it's just the "story" they formulate to function in the world and feel capable or whatever

 

[á´…eparted]

Integration and disintegration are pretty important for enneagram. The thing people need to keep in mind (and it is kind of difficult to do) is your integration and disintegration points are not types you become like, but you fuse in good or bad elements of those types into yourself.

Both integration and disintegration is a large portion of how I have confirmed my type as a 1. When I grow I become more 7 like- I am able to be free with my convictions and not have to assert them at every turn or impose them on another. I can relax genuinely and move forward without having everything nailed down as there will be an implicit faith/trust that I have the skills, and knowledge, and that others around me do as well. When I fall I become more 4 like- I become very resolute and unmoving. I will misconstrue personal opinion for objective fact. I will become impossibly critical to everyone including myself. I will wallow in misery and focus internally far too much and I become obsessive over being a good and right person and totally lose it when that doesn't come to be and be very self-destructive. People on the forum have witnessed me go through both of these in the past as well.

Think about how you fuse in the qualities into your type. If you think of yourself as becoming another type, it will lead you astray.

 

[chubber]

I don't really understand why 4 should disintegrate to 2. In my personal experience, when I am at my worst I am usually even more introverted than usual, I don't want contact with people and I can become pretty rude, very withdrawn and isolated while I concentrate only at myself and my feelings or misfortunes.
This is not very much what 2s do, because they become needy and manipulative.
What I've heard from other 4s, most of them describe the same experience with being unhealthy as I do... I don't really see the 2 in it.

That's your 5 wing, hiding from people.

 

[fetus]

I don't think "disintegration" looks the same for everyone in the specific type, but for some people it really does help them determine their true type.

I had a type 2 friend who clearly disintegrated and I seriously thought she was pretty 8ish. She was going through a rough time at her knew college. She would always complain about how incompetent people were and she liked to take charge of things and always tried to put herself in a leadership position. She would talk about how she wishes she could make her emotions go away because she hated them so much... it made her "ineffective". As I got to know her, I realized that this was her way of getting putting to be dependent on her ...in a "non-emotional/objective" way.

I have mistyped 6s as 3s because some of them can become too dependent on what other people think about them to feel secure. I read some place that this happens mostly to 6w7s. I hear that they can lie to themselves about themselves to cover up their insecurities and some of them will be afraid of taking risks so they don't look stupid to others. So if this is the case, then 6s show signs of unhealthiness when they place too much stock on other people's perceptions about themselves.

I think this can be true of me. Sometimes, you just want people to like you. It's not like a 2 ...it's literally purely "look at me!!! tell me I am okay/pretty/smart/creative/funny/whatever it is you want the person to believe" so you can feel secure. Lots of 6s mistype as 2w3 or 3w2 for that reason because it's typically attributed to those types. With true 2s, they feel that they need to earn love. But with 6s, they can do deceitful things (like a 3) because it's simply about allaying your fears... not earning love. Oh and it's not that 6s intentionally lie to themselves (so they may not realize they are doing this). Just like 3s aren't TRYING to lie to themselves... it's just the "story" they formulate to function in the world and feel capable or whatever

This is so spot-on for me. Thank you for this.

I like also what [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] said about fusing. It used to confuse me, how a type could disintegrate to another type. I wondered, if an unhealthy 4 is a 2, then how are they still an unhealthy 4 and not just an unhealthy 2? But the fusing things makes sense. Still being an unhealthy 4, but with an unhealthy 2 flavoring. If that makes sense. Thank you.

 

[thoughtlost]

Yes, Hard is definitely right about them taking essential bits of your disintegration point and adding it your core psychology/enneagram style. It simply flavors you; it doesn't become you.

how do you experience disintegration to 3?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Integration and disintegration are very helpful. I mistyped as a 6 originally because I was in disintegration. But I didn't have unhealthy 6 traits like paranoia.....

When combined with health levels, 9 really fits me. Even the integration towards 3 fits, because I feel conflicted between peace and striving for success. It just doesn't feel right to focus on my personal success, so I guess I have a lot more to do to get healthy...

 

[chickpea]

for me disintegration to 2 is almost like a survival technique. when unhealthy I'm aware of it and realize the ways I might be pushing people away and making myself difficult to be in a relationship with. so in order to compensate I might become overly generous and accommodating or clingy even. to make myself more worthy. because this behavior isn't natural to me like it is to an actual 2, I feel like I'm not being authentic to myself and it makes me feel even unhealthiest as a result.

 

[Forever]

Let's see....

PRIDE: Tend to drop comments into conversation which are kind of braggy. Creating an enviable image - others envy YOU. They dislike you because they envy you, not because you're an aloof snob or some other e4 demeanor problem.

Letting people know how selfless I am, that I suffer for the greater good. Helping to be liked instead of helping out of principle (difference in e1 or e2 helping e4s might engage in - one is to gain something for yourself & the other is just because it's the right thing to do).

I associate elitism with 2 disintegration - the place where envy is denied with pride. Rejection of needing anyone out of pride.

SEDUCTION - Obsession with being attractive to others. Start to do inappropriate things to attract people, often ones unavailable to you in some way. Seeking proof of your own desirability - not being broken & repulsive because of it, but able to attract if so inclined (you just haven't been inclined thus far, haha yeah right). Instead of making people come to you by being so mysterious & cool, you think you can instead manipulate them into your hands (which you justify as being some extension of your deep grasp of how people work emotionally *insert eye roll here* ). People who come to you too easily may be scorned a bit or simply not "counted" as a victory, so that you're in a perpetual cycle of seduction-frustration, spiraling downward into the pit of being totally ugly on the inside, bitterly envying those who get what they want "so easily".

I relate to this strongly. [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
[MENTION=18559]Inis Mona[/MENTION] [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION]

 

[Yama]

I don't understand type 3 so I don't know what my disintegration to it is like.

 

[fetus]

Yes, Hard is definitely right about them taking essential bits of your disintegration point and adding it your core psychology/enneagram style. It simply flavors you; it doesn't become you.

how do you experience disintegration to 3?

Well, as a 6 I seek that approval thing. If I'm unhealthy and I feel like I'm not getting it, I will pump myself up and create an extreme "placeholder" identity for myself, even though I know it's not me deep down. This can go to either extreme. Sometimes I try so hard to appear successful and ingenious. As a kid, I would stick around the teachers at recess and bring out big books I didn't understand, just so they could see me and be impressed with how smart I was. When I got older, if I felt like my social circle was unstable, I would find someone else to hang out with in front of them, and pretend to be having a much more fun time than I was actually having. Honestly, it was pretty self-sabotaging. And then there's the negative side, where I would poke at my negative feelings so people could see me hurting and remind me that they're still by my side. I heard that "testing people" is a 6 thing. Purposefully sitting away from the crowd to see who was loyal enough to notice me and sit with me, too. I could alter my image to make my "approved people" notice me. I knew when to sniffle, how to frown, when to put my hand in my hands, etc.

I don't really see myself as competitive, but at the same time, I kind of am. My ISTP sister, my best friend, got her driver's permit the other day. I still have mine; I haven't gotten a license yet. Well, she's immediately better at it than I am even though I've been driving for longer. Unfortunately, I found myself becoming very cruel and saying horrible things... "I will do what it takes to get to the top, and nobody can stop me. I am superior." At the same time, I felt completely inferior and worthless, so much so that I descended into a sobbing panic and texted a friend a very dramatic paragraph about how awful I felt. When she read it and didn't reply, I felt that "oh my God I'm going to be abandoned and I've ruined all my relationships" feeling, and that just made it worse. I had to call a hotline because I felt alone and like I had nobody to vent to.

I also think it has to do with presenting oneself so my "circle" still approves of me. Admittedly, I find myself shopping for clothes thinking, "What would my friend think of this? What if I buy it and it looks horrible? I'll wear it, just not around them." Because I don't want to lose their OK stamp. I don't wear makeup around them because I don't want it criticized. I felt uncomfortable buying my own prom shoes because I was afraid they would think they sucked. And if they think they suck, then it's true. I do that, to be honest. I have to remind myself that I'm capable of making my own decisions, and that what other people say is not automatically the gospel truth. It's like my brain makes my closest loved ones into pillars of knowledge, and what they say goes. Thus, in the past, I've fallen victim to codependency.

Here's some disintegration self-talk:

"I'm upset, I'll go to my authority figure. They can rescue me. Wait, I'm losing them! I'm overwhelming them. I'm venting too much. Am I using them to fulfill my own needs? They don't want to be around me anymore. I'm going to be abandoned. What did I do to alienate them? Oh, they didn't like that I acted like that. I'll stop acting like that. I'll present myself in a way that they'll like. This is a nice dress, my friends would like this. I like this outfit--wait, they said they didn't like it. They're right, it isn't that cute after all. What if I'm not funny? The only reason they like me is because I'm funny, right? Well, now I need to plan jokes that they'll like. I have to start planning jokes for the next outing. Why didn't they approve of my action? Why are they mad? Well, now I'm mad! I'll get revenge. They'll be sorry they said that. I'm make them jealous.

I'm being taken for granted. I'll show them that they're sorry without me! I'll post a video of myself with other friends, then they'll feel bad. Why don't they appreciate me? I'm so loyal, but I feel like they don't care as much. Wait, they're jealous, now they're upset. It's all my fault! I'm going to be abandoned."

Throughout my life, I've just drifted from person to person, becoming intensely attached, then it just fizzles away. I'm alone for maybe two weeks, then I start obsessing about someone else. There's always someone who's my "hero." I imagine myself signing books, winning competitions, so they can see me and be proud. I guess I'm like a puppy.

It's a problem, and I'm working on it through therapy.

Any 6's relate?

 

[thoughtlost]

Well, as a 6 I seek that approval thing. If I'm unhealthy and I feel like I'm not getting it, I will pump myself up and create an extreme "placeholder" identity for myself, even though I know it's not me deep down. This can go to either extreme. Sometimes I try so hard to appear successful and ingenious. As a kid, I would stick around the teachers at recess and bring out big books I didn't understand, just so they could see me and be impressed with how smart I was. When I got older, if I felt like my social circle was unstable, I would find someone else to hang out with in front of them, and pretend to be having a much more fun time than I was actually having. Honestly, it was pretty self-sabotaging. And then there's the negative side, where I would poke at my negative feelings so people could see me hurting and remind me that they're still by my side. I heard that "testing people" is a 6 thing. Purposefully sitting away from the crowd to see who was loyal enough to notice me and sit with me, too. I could alter my image to make my "approved people" notice me. I knew when to sniffle, how to frown, when to put my hand in my hands, etc.

I don't really see myself as competitive, but at the same time, I kind of am. My ISTP sister, my best friend, got her driver's permit the other day. I still have mine; I haven't gotten a license yet. Well, she's immediately better at it than I am even though I've been driving for longer. Unfortunately, I found myself becoming very cruel and saying horrible things... "I will do what it takes to get to the top, and nobody can stop me. I am superior." At the same time, I felt completely inferior and worthless, so much so that I descended into a sobbing panic and texted a friend a very dramatic paragraph about how awful I felt. When she read it and didn't reply, I felt that "oh my God I'm going to be abandoned and I've ruined all my relationships" feeling, and that just made it worse. I had to call a hotline because I felt alone and like I had nobody to vent to.

I also think it has to do with presenting oneself so my "circle" still approves of me. Admittedly, I find myself shopping for clothes thinking, "What would my friend think of this? What if I buy it and it looks horrible? I'll wear it, just not around them." Because I don't want to lose their OK stamp. I don't wear makeup around them because I don't want it criticized. I felt uncomfortable buying my own prom shoes because I was afraid they would think they sucked. And if they think they suck, then it's true. I do that, to be honest. I have to remind myself that I'm capable of making my own decisions, and that what other people say is not automatically the gospel truth. It's like my brain makes my closest loved ones into pillars of knowledge, and what they say goes. Thus, in the past, I've fallen victim to codependency.

Here's some disintegration self-talk:

"I'm upset, I'll go to my authority figure. They can rescue me. Wait, I'm losing them! I'm overwhelming them. I'm venting too much. Am I using them to fulfill my own needs? They don't want to be around me anymore. I'm going to be abandoned. What did I do to alienate them? Oh, they didn't like that I acted like that. I'll stop acting like that. I'll present myself in a way that they'll like. This is a nice dress, my friends would like this. I like this outfit--wait, they said they didn't like it. They're right, it isn't that cute after all. What if I'm not funny? The only reason they like me is because I'm funny, right? Well, now I need to plan jokes that they'll like. I have to start planning jokes for the next outing. Why didn't they approve of my action? Why are they mad? Well, now I'm mad! I'll get revenge. They'll be sorry they said that. I'm make them jealous.

I'm being taken for granted. I'll show them that they're sorry without me! I'll post a video of myself with other friends, then they'll feel bad. Why don't they appreciate me? I'm so loyal, but I feel like they don't care as much. Wait, they're jealous, now they're upset. It's all my fault! I'm going to be abandoned."

Throughout my life, I've just drifted from person to person, becoming intensely attached, then it just fizzles away. I'm alone for maybe two weeks, then I start obsessing about someone else. There's always someone who's my "hero." I imagine myself signing books, winning competitions, so they can see me and be proud. I guess I'm like a puppy.

It's a problem, and I'm working on it through therapy.

Any 6's relate?

I've had a similar experience where I try to create a "placeholder" identity (I really like that phrasing, fetus). You try to be something else that you're not to feel better about your insecurities even when you KNOW that the identity you are wearing is not the real you. A disintegrating 6 looks very much like the 2/3/4 heart type. 6s also struggle with authenticity issues (like 4s are stereotyped as on personality forums).

Oh and I definitely tested people to see if they appreciated me!! Horrible, horrible thing to do.

I just wonder how I non-feeling dom 6 experiences disintegration. Is the same?

 

[Lady Lazarus]

It sort of feels as if I’m losing my mind. Fissuring with a great and terrible fury.