• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Traditional Enneagram] self development for 5's

Mycroft

The elder Holmes
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,068
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
True, but when you get down to the bottom of it, our fear isn't causing the ripples; it's that one of the ripples will develop into a tidal wave and crash right back down upon us. We're always a part of reality anyway, whether we're out in public or alone in a room. We think we can divide reality into "danger" and "safety" zones, which is a pipe dream.
 
G

garbage

Guest
I'm not sure there is a person alive whose world view is completely unlimited.
There sure isn't a person like this, but it can be said to be an ideal that we can strive for.

I'd view it as more 'unbiased' than 'unlimited,' though. If we're unbiased and not subject to a given lens, then we can view the world through a multitude of different lenses, choose the right one for the job (which requires some wisdom), and press on.

It's more a matter of wishing that reading a book on swimming would have the same effect as practicing to swim.
Man, yeah. I'd venture to say that sometimes this "wishing" becomes "believing" or "convincing oneself." Perhaps, at some level, it's not even realizing that practicing swimming is an option--that intellectualizing things (studying them from a distance and/or with the rational brain) is the only way to learn about things.

I say all of this having been guilty of it at times. What [MENTION=332]Mycroft[/MENTION] has said about stumbling upon a system, enthusiastically trying it out, and seeing it fail (at least in certain ways) definitely resonates with me, too. I'm.. sure that most of us have been through this with typology :wink:
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There sure isn't a person like this, but it can be said to be an ideal that we can strive for.

I'd view it as more 'unbiased' than 'unlimited,' though. If we're unbiased and not subject to a given lens, then we can view the world through a multitude of different lenses, choose the right one for the job (which requires some wisdom), and press on.


Man, yeah. I'd venture to say that sometimes this "wishing" becomes "believing" or "convincing oneself." Perhaps, at some level, it's not even realizing that practicing swimming is an option--that intellectualizing things (studying them from a distance and/or with the rational brain) is the only way to learn about things.

I say all of this having been guilty of it at times. What [MENTION=332]Mycroft[/MENTION] has said about stumbling upon a system, enthusiastically trying it out, and seeing it fail (at least in certain ways) definitely resonates with me, too. I'm.. sure that most of us have been through this with typology :wink:

I think it starts with escaping into books, eventually progresses into a desire to avoid confronting reality, and finally into a complete disdain for reality. I never reached that last stage, I was just "average health."

My particular system was Objectivism, but then I began to have my doubts because of its sui generis nature. It failed to conform with the history of any other philosophy. I decided to read Kant, "the most evil man in mankind's history," and while I thought I saw some of the evil Rand was talking about, it didn't particularly strike me that way. I think if any philosopher put be back on the road to reality, it would be Kant, with help from typological self-work.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't intend to sound like I'm attacking anyone, but this variety of "self help" is precisely what gives us fives trouble: we put systems of thought between ourselves and reality. We think that if we can find just the right philosophy or outlook, it will be a flawless road map and we'll finally have the means to deal with life.

In my experience, this just leads to a loop where I'm excited about some new system of thought, overextend myself, and end up crashing and spending as much time alone as possible for days or weeks at a time. The only method of dealing with life I've found is to just ration out my extraversion, as it were, and to deal with the external world calmly until I feel I'm getting tired and call it a day.

The only way to get better at something is by doing it. We fives are the ones who think we can read a book on how to swim.



This is what I keep thinking every time I open this thread.

It’s why I like the affirmations. They point out some way in which I can pay attention and actually work on engaging with the external environment, in tiny manageable chunks that I can put into practice immediately- instead of taking in a bigger concept to digest. I’m a little *too* good at taking in the concepts to digest, but then get a little lost when it comes to implementing them. But the tiny things I can put into practice right away seem to ultimately be building some kind of “just do it right away” muscle that makes me more aware overall of how often I stop ‘to digest’ stuff before implementing it. (I really am addicted to feeling like I need to digest something 'just a little more'.)
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Given the choice of which job to take or which house to buy is not a delimiter of faith. Faith transcends all such objective limits. Making choices, thus delimiting your options, only delimits to those who refuse to acknowledge faith.
Isn't faith, though, also a matter of choices? No one believes everything. Each of us believes some subset based upon our values, upbringing, what resonates with us or makes sense to us.

There sure isn't a person like this, but it can be said to be an ideal that we can strive for.

I'd view it as more 'unbiased' than 'unlimited,' though. If we're unbiased and not subject to a given lens, then we can view the world through a multitude of different lenses, choose the right one for the job (which requires some wisdom), and press on.
I already do this rather readily. I suspect many 5's do, at least those with Ni-dom (and perhaps Ne?). When faced with an important decision or apparently intractable problem, I "play God" and imagine what would be my ideal resolution if there were no constraints at all and I could do anything. Only after visualing this in reasonable detail do I attempt any reconciliation with reality. So I can at least imagine unlimited choices, even if I never realize them.

This is what I keep thinking every time I open this thread.

It’s why I like the affirmations. They point out some way in which I can pay attention and actually work on engaging with the external environment, in tiny manageable chunks that I can put into practice immediately- instead of taking in a bigger concept to digest. I’m a little *too* good at taking in the concepts to digest, but then get a little lost when it comes to implementing them. But the tiny things I can put into practice right away seem to ultimately be building some kind of “just do it right away” muscle that makes me more aware overall of how often I stop ‘to digest’ stuff before implementing it. (I really am addicted to feeling like I need to digest something 'just a little more'.)
This sums up my quandry fairly well. Theory is all well and good, but what do I actually DO?
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Isn't faith, though, also a matter of choices? No one believes everything. Each of us believes some subset based upon our values, upbringing, what resonates with us or makes sense to us.

As in choosing your religious values? Faith in an absolute can't be encompassed by limits. Or as some would put it, "I didn't choose God, God chose me."
 

Mycroft

The elder Holmes
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,068
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
As in choosing your religious values? Faith in an absolute can't be encompassed by limits. Or as some would put it, "I didn't choose God, God chose me."

Please. This is just another re-wording of the ubiquitous fallacy: "I experienced some nebulous intuition. Therefore God exists." If your upbringing had been different, you would have attributed this intuition to the Tao or the Buddha or an animal spirit, etc. Don't try to dress up sloppy reasoning as open-mindedness.

(Yes, I'm helping to derail the thread, but this sort of nonsense irritates me to no end.)
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Please. This is just another re-wording of the ubiquitous fallacy: "I experienced some nebulous intuition. Therefore God exists." If your upbringing had been different, you would have attributed this intuition to the Tao or the Buddha or an animal spirit, etc. Don't try to dress up sloppy reasoning as open-mindedness.

(Yes, I'm helping to derail the thread, but this sort of nonsense irritates me to no end.)

I said "some" not "everybody." You're not only derailing the thread but also the topic. The limiting effect of reasoning, sloppy or otherwise, is the problem. How can even more reasoning be the solution?
 

Mycroft

The elder Holmes
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,068
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
The problem is not reasoning. The problem is a five's tendency to withdraw into our heads so deeply that we fail to feed our reasoning abilities with real-world data. What you seem to prescribe - feeding our reasoning with nebulous intuitions that rise up from the subconscious - (rather than toughening up and heading out into the real world to collect empirical data) would only lead to more problems.

I've met far too many people who come under the impression that their intuitive faculties are the voice of "God". It displays a lack of self-awareness and clear reasoning.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Faith in an absolute implies a rejection of its opposite: already, a limit. Whether we choose "God" or God chooses us, it is a choice which eliminates others. As I wrote, no one believes everything. We need both those "nebulous intuitions" and real world facts, balanced by our reason, and weighed against our values (another choice among many options).
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Faith in an absolute implies a rejection of its opposite:

You didn't state what the opposite of an absolute is. An absolute is impossible to attain through reason because this limit is at infinity.

Hyperbole_1_sur_x.png


already, a limit. Whether we choose "God" or God chooses us, it is a choice which eliminates others.

However, in the latter case it is not our choice, and that's the point. The rational activity of making a choice is no longer present.

As I wrote, no one believes everything. We need both those "nebulous intuitions" and real world facts, balanced by our reason, and weighed against our values (another choice among many options).

Real world facts are just a sea of data altered by our choices. "Nebulous intuitions" is someone's straw dog example of faith-based living.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You didn't state what the opposite of an absolute is. An absolute is impossible to attain through reason because this limit is at infinity.

However, in the latter case it is not our choice, and that's the point. The rational activity of making a choice is no longer present.

Real world facts are just a sea of data altered by our choices. "Nebulous intuitions" is someone's straw dog example of faith-based living.
"God is good" is an absolute. "God is bad/evil" is its opposite. "God is better than humanity" is relative. "God is usually/mostly good" is a statement with limitations. My point was limitations, and a key way in which we are subject to limitations is by the imposition of external constraints which we cannot control. Our choices don't alter real-world facts, just how we make use for or compensate for them. But I can see the last about faith-based living.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
"God is good" is an absolute. "God is bad/evil" is its opposite. "God is better than humanity" is relative. "God is usually/mostly good" is a statement with limitations. My point was limitations, and a key way in which we are subject to limitations is by the imposition of external constraints which we cannot control. Our choices don't alter real-world facts, just how we make use for or compensate for them. But I can see the last about faith-based living.

Uh... this strikes me as fives avoiding self-improvement by going into debates about God.

This advice from here seems pretty good. I know a lot of it applies to me as well:
Fives grow by recognizing that real confidence lies not simply in intellectual mastery but in putting themselves out into the world. Fives usually derive their confidence through the development of their minds, but they really need to bring balance to their psyches by developing a deeper relationship with their bodies and feelings. Growth for a Five requires allowing themselves to see how estranged they are from their actual living selves and acknowledging all of the deep needs that they have denied since early childhood. Fives actually feel things deeply, but they are extremely restrained in their ability to express their feelings. Developing trust of others, sharing what they are experiencing, and identifying with their feelings are all crucial for them to blossom fully as human beings. All of this becomes much easier when Fives are grounded in their bodies.

Learn to notice when your thinking and speculating takes you out of the immediacy of your experience. Your mental capacities can be an extraordinary gift, but only can also be a trap when you use them to retreat from contact with yourself and others. Stay connected with your physicality.


You tend to be extremely intense and so high-strung that you find it difficult to relax and unwind. Make an effort to learn to calm down in a healthy way, without drugs or alcohol. Exercising or using biofeedback techniques will help channel some of your tremendous nervous energy. Meditation, jogging, yoga, and dancing are especially helpful for your type.


You see many possibilities but often do not know how to choose among them or judge which is more or less important. When you are caught in your fixation, a sense of perspective can be missing, and with it the ability to make accurate assessments. At such time, it can be helpful to get the advice of someone whose judgment you trust while you are gaining perspective on your situation. Doing this can also help you trust someone else, a difficulty for your type.


Notice when you are getting intensely involved in projects that do not necessarily support your self-esteem, confidence, or life situation. It is possible to follow many different fascinating subjects, games, and pastimes, but they can become huge distractions from what you know really need to do. Decisive action will bring more confidence than learning more facts or acquiring more unrelated skills.


Fives tend to find it difficult to trust people, to open up to them emotionally, or to make themselves accessible in various ways. Their awareness of potential problems in relationships may tend to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is important to remember that having conflicts with others is not unusual and that the healthy thing is to work them out rather than reject attachments with people by withdrawing into isolation. Having one or two intimate friends whom you trust enough to have conflicts with will enrich your life greatly.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Uh... this strikes me as fives avoiding self-improvement by going into debates about God.
Nothing so enlightening or enjoyable. This one seems 92% semantics, and I'll leave further discussion for another thread, if that becomes necessary. Thanks for the information. I read this once quite awhile ago, but hadn't kept/remembered the link.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
"God is good" is an absolute. "God is bad/evil" is its opposite. "God is better than humanity" is relative. "God is usually/mostly good" is a statement with limitations. My point was limitations, and a key way in which we are subject to limitations is by the imposition of external constraints which we cannot control. Our choices don't alter real-world facts, just how we make use for or compensate for them. But I can see the last about faith-based living.

I understand that. However, everything you say there about the external world limiting you is a thought that derives from the limiting capacity of reason that was mentioned in the first place. Your ideas on God are based on the same limitations. You're just returning to it over and over again. And I never opposed that concept with nebulous intuitions because that would be another limitation.

[MENTION=5632]VagrantFarce[/MENTION] 'Don't presume to "know" anything - stop inventing categories and limits because you're too afraid to let go of your own thoughts and let things happen without your approval and understanding.

It's those pesky thoughts that you need to let go of, and it really is that simple. Right now your mind is a tyranny that runs your life, and you need to switch it off.'
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I understand that. However, everything you say there about the external world limiting you is a thought that derives from the limiting capacity of reason that was mentioned in the first place. Your ideas on God are based on the same limitations. You're just returning to it over and over again. And I never opposed that concept with nebulous intuitions because that would be another limitation.
Actually, they are not my ideas on God, just ideas I often hear from others. But I am going to return to the main focus of the thread. I've contributed to similar discussions on the philosophy/spirituality forum, and am sure I will do so in future.

[MENTION=5632]VagrantFarce[/MENTION] 'Don't presume to "know" anything - stop inventing categories and limits because you're too afraid to let go of your own thoughts and let things happen without your approval and understanding.
Now this makes sense and is potentially useful.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Actually, they are not my ideas on God, just ideas I often hear from others. But I am going to return to the main focus of the thread. I've contributed to similar discussions on the philosophy/spirituality forum, and am sure I will do so in future.


Now this makes sense and is potentially useful.

Now wait a minute. I said the same thing ("let things happen without your approval and understanding") only in different words. Therefore, you're just posting in order to oppose me. Because that is exactly the external control/limitation that you called "the imposition of external constraints." And yet you don't apply the same criticism when VF says it. Suddenly, you find the same idea you previously opposed to be agreeable and even "useful" when VF says it.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Actually, they are not my ideas on God, just ideas I often hear from others. But I am going to return to the main focus of the thread.

Oh, by the way, I never left that focus.

Self-help becomes a joke when it is just a lot of talk that makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Whenever I say GOD - that shakes many 5s out of their smug sense of complacency. The first knee-jerk reaction is often to use their rational faculty to limit God - usually, by declaring that God doesn't exist, followed by marginalizing those who use that name in a positive, healthy sense.

Nobody is saying that God (or whatever spiritual term for the Absolute you like) exists. That's not the point, because to say something exists is to place a limit upon it.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Now wait a minute. I said the same thing ("let things happen without your approval and understanding") only in different words. Therefore, you're just posting in order to oppose me. Because that is exactly the external control/limitation that you called "the imposition of external constraints." And yet you don't apply the same criticism when VF says it. Suddenly, you find the same idea you previously opposed to be agreeable and even "useful" when VF says it.
I'm not sure why you have your knickers in such a twist. Perhaps VF's explanation appeared more immediately workable, or even relevant. It made sense when he wrote it, and when you quoted it again. Your explanation doesn't convey the same meaning to me. It comes across more as a statement about how the world is, rather than a technique a 5 can use to engage more with the world, almost as an exercise, or developing better habits.

To clarify my own thoughts: I see the utility of embracing unpredictability as a means of overcoming typical 5 weaknesses, to a point. By that I mean I'm not about to do it when managing my investments, or planning projects at work, or deciding on major purchases. Here very significant constraints are in play, and it is foolish to ignore them. I can, and probably should, simply let things happen on their own more in personal interactions, recreation, even many day-to-day aspects of work.

Self-help becomes a joke when it is just a lot of talk that makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Whenever I say GOD - that shakes many 5s out of their smug sense of complacency. The first knee-jerk reaction is often to use their rational faculty to limit God - usually, by declaring that God doesn't exist, followed by marginalizing those who use that name in a positive, healthy sense.
So all of this is just so you can see my response when someone mentions God? That will depend significantly on context. In any case, I have no reticence about discussing God, nor a desire to marginalize those who do. I started this thread to explore how 5's can use the enneagram for self-improvement, particularly with regard to emotional engagement. If you see a connection between this and discussing God, by all means continue. That sounds like it could be quite interesting.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm not sure why you have your knickers in such a twist. Perhaps VF's explanation appeared more immediately workable, or even relevant. It made sense when he wrote it, and when you quoted it again. Your explanation doesn't convey the same meaning to me. It comes across more as a statement about how the world is, rather than a technique a 5 can use to engage more with the world, almost as an exercise, or developing better habits.

To clarify my own thoughts: I see the utility of embracing unpredictability as a means of overcoming typical 5 weaknesses, to a point. By that I mean I'm not about to do it when managing my investments, or planning projects at work, or deciding on major purchases. Here very significant constraints are in play, and it is foolish to ignore them. I can, and probably should, simply let things happen on their own more in personal interactions, recreation, even many day-to-day aspects of work.


So all of this is just so you can see my response when someone mentions God? That will depend significantly on context. In any case, I have no reticence about discussing God, nor a desire to marginalize those who do. I started this thread to explore how 5's can use the enneagram for self-improvement, particularly with regard to emotional engagement. If you see a connection between this and discussing God, by all means continue. That sounds like it could be quite interesting.

I've certainly never strayed from your topic. It has become meta-topical whenever I have to justify myself, but that's as far as it goes.

Self-help for type 5s is generally part of any self-help -

1. We admitted we were powerless over X — that our lives had become unmanageable. *

Now replace X with the particular spiritual/psychological problem you need help with.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. *

I never claimed that the Higher Power was God, recall that I only stated that some call it God. It's a matter of personal preference.

The type 5 will decide that it's possible to out-think or outsmart Problem X. That's where Step 1 comes into play. Step 2 introduces the notion that there is an unlimited potential for growth, but only after the 5 admits that more conceptualization is not the solution at Step 1.

That's where I can appreciate VF's mention of limitation. As long as you stay within the old structure of thought, your problems will never go away and will likely become stronger. This applies to any type but is particularly true of Fives because they are so addicted to a rigid thought-process.

*The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous has been adapted for many other causes besides alcoholism.
 
Top