• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Questioning the Enneagram

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
<break down of 9-types into two 3-valued variable>

Interesting. Thanks for that.

You discount wings needing to be next to each other?

But what do wings actually mean? --just that you are on the border?

Isn't that analogous to an INxP not knowing what their dominant function is? But most MB enthusiasits don't dispute that the auxiliary function of a healthy type ought to be the opposite orientation, and opposite on the judging/perceiving type of function. Would you say an INxP is FiTi or TiFi?

Also, what about the core desires/fears, levels of health, and directions of (dis)integration?

How do those fit in?
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Interesting. Thanks for that.

You discount wings needing to be next to each other?

But what do wings actually mean? --just that you are on the border?

They theoretically refer to the type you most like next to your primary type. It's that simple. I'm saying that there is not reason that they should have to be adjacent, because the ordering of the types is totally irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what the types are actually like.

Isn't that analogous to an INxP not knowing what their dominant function is? But most MB enthusiasits don't dispute that the auxiliary function of a healthy type ought to be the opposite orientation, and opposite on the judging/perceiving type of function. Would you say an INxP is FiTi or TiFi?

I don't think the wings have anything to do with unknowns. They simple have to do with what's next in line in terms of similarity. Which is why instead of just doing one wing, I would encourage people to run down the list from top to bottom to see which types they are most and least like. In my case, I believe it would be 1> 6> 5> 4> 2> 3> 9> 8> 7.

I don't know what an INXP's function order is, but that's a different issue.

Also, what about the core desires/fears, levels of health, and directions of (dis)integration?

How do those fit in?

Well, I'm not sure that they are true. Any of those things. I know, that's a pretty heavy pronouncement, but my analysis of all of this has cast much of the particulars of the enneagram into doubt. I feel like a lot of the theorists got carried away with unwarranted contrivances. Still, I haven't actually drawn a conclusion about those things you mention. I'm looking into them.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
Well, I'm not sure that they are true. Any of those things. I know, that's a pretty heavy pronouncement, but my analysis of all of this has cast much of the particulars of the enneagram into doubt. I feel like a lot of the theorists got carried away with unwarranted contrivances. Still, I haven't actually drawn a conclusion about those things you mention. I'm looking into them.

That's too bad. Those were the things I found interesting about the enneagram. Having yet another trait based categorization people doesn't seem to add much value unless it aids in development or yields insight into motivation.

INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.

I was just using the INxP to see if maybe wings we similar to function order in MBTI. Guess not. There are a lot of reasons people could test close on the T-F dichotomy. I often test as INFP. But, I think it is because my Fi+Fe functions are close to my Ti+Te in strength. Nevertheless, my Ti>>Fi>Fe, so I type my self as INTP, and my function order is something like Ti-Ne-Ni-Si-Fi-Fe-Te-Se.

Where is a good place to get a break down like like the ones you and MP got for the Enneagram?
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.

Hmmm... I might be able to improve that order. It would only be possible if you could actually give me some clear answers about who you are, though. :tongue:
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Hmmm... I might be able to improve that order. It would only be possible if you could actually give me some clear answers about who you are, though. :tongue:

I have no idea who the hell I am. I just know how to work the levers and press the buttons to make whatever the hell I am work.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
That's too bad. Those were the things I found interesting about the enneagram. Having yet another trait based categorization people doesn't seem to add much value unless it aids in development or yields insight into motivation.

Well, let me say that the directions of (dis)-integration seem unaccaptably abitrary, even for a system like this. When pages talk about how a type positively or negativel relates to all other types, it makes a little more sense. But when anyone writes this very defined lines from point to point, it's a bit dubious.

As for the concept of levels of health and core fears, those could still easily exist, but their definitions might need a little re-tooling. Each one of the nine combinations does create a very distinctive mentality, which is what I find fascinationg. The MB types don't seem to me like much more than the sum of their parts, but some how the Enneagram types do.


Where is a good place to get a break down like like the ones you and MP got for the Enneagram?

What do you mean? Almost everything I'm talking about here is my own invention.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
Well, let me say that the directions of (dis)-integration seem unaccaptably abitrary, even for a system like this. When pages talk about how a type positively or negativel relates to all other types, it makes a little more sense. But when anyone writes this very defined lines from point to point, it's a bit dubious.

As for the concept of levels of health and core fears, those could still easily exist, but their definitions might need a little re-tooling. Each one of the nine combinations does create a very distinctive mentality, which is what I find fascinationg. The MB types don't seem to me like much more than the sum of their parts, but some how the Enneagram types do.

I actually like to see specifics like that, in a theory. Because, if accurate, they are very usable. It make me wonder "why that, one." But still, it seems more usable because of it.

For example:
The claim is for a 5, the direction of integration is towards 8. So (at least in theory) as I mature in a healthy manner, I would be more like a healthy 8. I like that sort of thing (again, if it is accurate).


What do you mean? Almost everything I'm talking about here is my own invention.

I meant, I know I test as a 5, but I don't know the rest. I thought there was a test that gave preference order, but I don't remember where I took it.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I actually like to see specifics like that, in a theory. Because, if accurate, they are very usable. It make me wonder "why that, one." But still, it seems more usable because of it.


For example:
The claim is for a 5, the direction of integration is towards 8. So (at least in theory) as I mature in a healthy manner, I would be more like a healthy 8. I like that sort of thing (again, if it is accurate).

I know the process. I just have ever increasing reason to believe that it is not accurate.

I meant, I know I test as a 5, but I don't know the rest. I thought there was a test that gave preference order, but I don't remember where I took it.

It was probably the test at similarminds.com. It has nothing to do with how I determined my order, though.
 

sleepless

New member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
81
MBTI Type
INFJ
MP, you came up with that by yourself? :O Anyway, thanks, very interesting. =) It actually can be derived from something, then. And that makes the directions of (dis)integration much easier to investigate. For example: Avoiding/Turbulent = 4 >>>growth>>> Anticipating/Suppressive = 1
But then suddenly this seems arbitrary. Maybe there's something more needed to explain why 4 goes to 1... hm...



And I know the criticism in my initial post wasn't very balanced; I didn't mean there's nothing at all good with Enneagram, those of you who have pointed out how useful it can be are of course right as well...
 

mlittrell

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,387
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w1
INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.

Ji Je?

INXP (if you want to use "X" notation)

Xi, Ne, si, Xe

INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te)
INTP (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe)
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Ji Je?

INXP (if you want to use "X" notation)

Xi, Ne, si, Xe

INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te)
INTP (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe)

I'm using a different notation.

'Judging' functions are labeled as J. Perceiving functions are labeled as P. This means for an INXP, the judging functions are unknown, but the perceiving functions are.
 

mlittrell

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,387
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w1
I'm using a different notation.

'Judging' functions are labeled as J. Perceiving functions are labeled as P. This means for an INXP, the judging functions are unknown, but the perceiving functions are.

oh lol ya you did the same thing i did

just realized that

*bashes head against keyboard*

thanks for clearing that up :)
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
So, pursuing types have targets that they very pro-actively pursue. It could be that they seek pleasure, or they aim to pre-emptively tackle problems, the actual target of their pursuits is determined by other variable. They are impatient, impetuous people. They also tend to over-estimate the benefit end of cost-benefit analyses, which is one of the things that make them aggressive. They expect to profit from adventures. These types are 3, 7, and 8.

So then we have avoidant types. They generally over-estimate the cost end of cost-benefit analyses. These people tend to spend more time on avoiding what they don't like than they do on seeking what they do like. When they can't avoid stress, they often fall into an almost fatalistic state of passivity. Throwing weight around is something these types seem to have particular distaste for. These types are 4, 5, and 9.

So, the anticipating types do not pursue nor avoid these highlights of life. They stand and deal with them whenever they come. They handle life like a tetris player. These people have a more balanced view of cost-benefit analysis, but perhaps too balanced sometimes. These people don't like making dramatic decisions the same way the other two can, which can make for missed opportunites. These types are 1, 2, and 6.

The second variable is one that regards emotional states and responses. They can be turbulent, supressive, or controling, for lack of better words.

The turbulent ones are the people that do not hinder their emotions at all. They let their moods tempestually flare with every feeling as it is set off. Their emotions run wild. They often seem to tilt toward being more negative than positive, but I think this is largely just because there are more negative emotions than positive ones, not because these types particularly want to dwell on negativity. These types are 4, 6, and 8.

The suppressive types try to keep their emotions from speaking up. They tend to believe that they can work best when they are not hearing thier emotions much or at all. By defualt they are well composed people. But when they fail to successfully supress their emotions, it often results in awkward displays. These types are 1, 3, and 5.

The controlling types are the ones that try to manipulate the flow of their own feelings to their advantage. These are the people that try to think positive. They make an effort to both display desirable emotions to others, and to also frequently reassure themselves of such good feelings. Most usually pick feelings like confidence, happiness, or love to project, but they may develop whatever feeling is appealing to them. They are also prone to suffering from denial, and usually take it very hard if their self-assurances can be completely disproven. These types are 2, 7, and 9.

So, to summarize the types:
Pursuing/Turbulent = 8. Avoiding/Turbulent = 4. Anticipating/Turbulent = 6. Pursuing/Suppressive = 3. Avoiding/Suppressive = 5. Anticipating/Suppressive = 1. Pursuing/Controlling = 7. Avoiding/Controlling = 9. Anticipating/Controlling = 2.

That's my explanation for now. I think it's pretty crappy, to be honest. If you are particularly interested, Dissonance, then I can surely do a better job actually discussing my theories directly.

Do these have anything to do with the matrix you used on your faces diagram and discussed in the Big Bowl of Enneagram thread?

Active/Aggressive
Passive/Evasive
Reactive/Supportive

Projective
Detached
Temperamental
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
I score equally in types 8 and 3 yet similarminds.com says I'm 8.

I don't know if I feel like a leader...
 

Delphyne

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
144
MBTI Type
INFP
Sleepless, I´m sorry, I wasn´t constructive. I try to do better. INFJs have a tendency to question theoretical constructs. But if you try to contrain yourself to understand the enneagram it´s likely you won´t understand it, because it´s a holistic system. INFJs are good at the enneagram if they involve the facilities of their mbti type. From what I´ve seen they can get a lot of information from little gestures or movements. If they use the ennagram as a construct they can relate their intuition of people to the enneagram. An INFJ friend of mine also uses music as a way to get a feel for the different types.
 

sleepless

New member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
81
MBTI Type
INFJ
Sleepless, I´m sorry, I wasn´t constructive. I try to do better. INFJs have a tendency to question theoretical constructs. But if you try to contrain yourself to understand the enneagram it´s likely you won´t understand it, because it´s a holistic system. INFJs are good at the enneagram if they involve the facilities of their mbti type. From what I´ve seen they can get a lot of information from little gestures or movements. If they use the ennagram as a construct they can relate their intuition of people to the enneagram. An INFJ friend of mine also uses music as a way to get a feel for the different types.
It's okay then, no problem. And you're probably right about what you say, as an INFJ I do best to approach the Enneagram from Ni, still sometimes you just gotta let it out... :steam: I think I fell in love with it a little at first, a little too much so I had to "liberate" myself from it... I still see it's useful, but I'll be a bit more cautious about it from now on. :)
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Do these have anything to do with the matrix you used on your faces diagram and discussed in the Big Bowl of Enneagram thread?

Active/Aggressive
Passive/Evasive
Reactive/Supportive

Projective
Detached
Temperamental

Yes. I think the terms I used this time are slightly better than the ones I used then. I'm constantly tweaking, you know.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
OK.
So it seems:
pursuing=extroverts
avoidant=introverts
anticipating=ambiverts

The other scale I would expect to be people/task orientation, except that 3 and 8 are reversed:

turbulent=inbetween
suppressive=task-oriented
controlling=people-oriented
("controlling" seems a bit misleading, as it makes you think of being controlling over other people rather than one's emotions).

But it does make sense that the 8 would be "turbulent" and not "suppressive".
Beesing, Nogosek, & O'Leary's "Dependent Types" (2,6,7), "Aggressive Types" (8,3,1), and "Withdrawing Types (5,9,4)" partly follow the people/task orientation scale, though 3 and 5 would have to be switched (and "aggressive" would only be in the sense of the person's reaction, rather than expression, and "withdrawing' would have to be renamed).
 
Top